correct as-is RWR, Threat warning prime panel - Target Separation button

[skywalker22]

Function to Separate targets used to work for a bit few months ago, although it was very clumsy, but now it does almost nothing, in many cases it does even worse - check the track attached. I cannot find any RL video, but in my opinion, it should separate all the targets around in circle, except highest threat, which stays at the same exact same place.

 

f16_rwr_Target Separation.trk

[skywalker22]

Oh, come on, correct as is? If this is how it would be made IRL, I doubt anyone would even want to fly an aircraft - just because of that, too damn dangerous.

Check F-5E for example, it's made MUCH better, there is still some work to do regarding repositioning symbols, but MUCH better - you at least know how many aircrafts is out there facing you. But ok, it's your game, your choice, I'm just saying this what we have now, no make no sense what so ever - regardless your change log.

Image bellow shows same example with F-5E and F-16:

I am trying hard to find some proof, to convince ED in fixing F-16's IP-1310/ALR. And so please you can help me here guys. Any kind of proof would be amazing for all of us.

Edited June 26, 2023 by skywalker22

[VarZat]

I really hope that "Correct as-is" was a mistake

[BIGNEWY]

We will take another look at this, but a note for anyone leaving feedback, please keep it mature and constructive. 

example 
"ED, you marked as correct as-is, but based on this track and this video from build XXXXX, I am seeing something differently. Can you kindly review again?"

thank you

[skywalker22]

2 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

We will take another look at this, but a note for anyone leaving feedback, please keep it mature and constructive. 

example 
"ED, you marked as correct as-is, but based on this track and this video from build XXXXX, I am seeing something differently. Can you kindly review again?"

thank you

Yes sir!

RWR and "Separation Targets" button is one of the major aspects in BVR and WVR, specially when multiple aircrafts are involved and flying in formations. I know you understand that. And since F-16 offers this kind of "aid", it would be awesome it is made that way - else it wouldn't even be there at the 1st place IRL - not many aircrafts have this kind of option.

Thank you @BIGNEWY for reconsidering.

[Furiz]

Oh I thought this was W.I.P. so I didn't make a report, well good that you did @skywalker22

[Raptor9]

When TGT SEP is enabled in the F-16, all symbols within an overlapping cluster are separated radially, outward only, away from the highest priority threat within the cluster. However, if edge-limited against the display, further separation cannot be performed, such as is the case if the radars are only in a Search mode.

To clarify, the type of display does not dictate how the RWR software is configured in response to button presses. The limitations of the installed display may dictate how the software is programmed to utilize the limited capabilities of the display (for example, no color-coding is possible), but the type of display installed in a cockpit is not directly indicative of how the RWR software should behave.

[skywalker22]

1 hour ago, Raptor9 said:

When TGT SEP is enabled in the F-16, all symbols within an overlapping cluster are separated radially, outward only, away from the highest priority threat within the cluster.

IP-1310/ALR does not even do that.

[falconzx]

Suggestion: the symbols seem to have too little radial movements inside their circles, this will not help to solve this issue. I think this effect can be intensified a bit allowing characters "touch" more the middle ring. This will help the general readability keeping still clear if a character is in the outer or inner circle, but making space for possible TGT sep in a lot of scenarios.
Another helpful thing could be reducing a little bit the character size.

Kindly regards.

Edited June 28, 2023 by falconzx

[skywalker22]

The whole point in my humble opionion of having Separation button, is not to align symbols in any kind of direction(s), but just to spread them out and try not to overlap again, to see which aircrafts are out there emmitting on you. So now its only just on the programmer (IRL) how he will do that. And in this case, it does not matter much how is this really done on F-16 Block 50 IRL, but it just a common sense or logic to make it this way in game. Ok, its always better to have some logic of course, like @Raptor9 said to 1st try to align symbol radialy, but if this is not working, if there is not enough space, there must be some other way, to go into some other direction. In anycase, there is max 16 symbols on the screen, so this shouldn't be any problem to sort them out. 

[Raptor9]

The current logic of the TGT SEP mode, to include the logic and direction of separation and the spacing of separation, is in accordance with documentation of the function on the RWR in the variant of F-16 that is represented in DCS: F-16.

[skywalker22]

2 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

The current logic of the TGT SEP mode, to include the logic and direction of separation and the spacing of separation, is in accordance with documentation of the function on the RWR in the variant of F-16 that is represented in DCS: F-16.

I would like to see that logic and documentation, since I see exactly zero logic in it. If you would just look the picture I posted in my 2nd post, I think you would agree with me - else I don't know what to say anymore.

What do you guys think? Would you agree with @Raptor9?

Can you pm me this logic? If you don't want to share?

[Coxy_99]

I trust ED more, Just to note one more point, IRL your not faced with 50+ targets on your rwr. As per the screen shot provided.

[Furiz]

6 minutes ago, Coxy_99 said:

IRL your not faced with 50+ targets on your rwr. As per the screen shot provided.

Yeah... that's not really true,

and I doubt designers overlooked something like that, as skywalker22 says there is absolutely no logic with current implementation. Computers back then would have no problem with RWR display, our Viper is from 2007 not from 1980. Even the F-5 can do it.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Furiz

[skywalker22]

2 minutes ago, Coxy_99 said:

I trust ED more, Just to note one more point, IRL your not faced with 50+ targets on your rwr. As per the screen shot provided.

I do too, but not on this one. 

There were wars in the history where there were 50+ planes in the air at ones, just not yet in the modern age, or at least I/we don't know about them.

Anyway, this is not the point, the point of Target Separation button is well known, else it wouldn't be there. 

But ok, ED sometimes has their own logic, and documentation, so we have to accept it - it's their game after all. I just wanted to help, but it looks like I hit the wall here. 

[Coxy_99]

i thought and think im wrong remove certain threats from the rwr tho? Making it less congested?

[Raptor9]

20 minutes ago, skywalker22 said:

 since I see exactly zero logic in it. If you would just look the picture I posted in my 2nd post

I've read this thread in its entirety, I do not simply throw responses into a discussion without reading through the original process and flow of the discussion.

As to the "logic" of it, just because some individuals do not think the logic of a real-world system makes sense, this does not mean that it was designed or implemented without a good reason or solid logic behind it.

This argument has been used many times before to justify a change in a DCS module, that "it doesn't make sense" for whatever reason. But that statement is highly subjective and carries with it a person's own confirmation bias as to what is accurate and what is not. Without being specifically briefed on the design, purpose, and employment of such a device in real-life, or without ever using the real-life device, the definition of what is "logical" is quite subjective.

To reiterate yet again:

4 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

The current logic of the TGT SEP mode, to include the logic and direction of separation and the spacing of separation, is in accordance with documentation of the function on the RWR in the variant of F-16 that is represented in DCS: F-16.

[skywalker22]

23 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

Without being specifically briefed on the design, purpose, and employment of such a device in real-life, or without ever using the real-life device, the definition of what is "logical" is quite subjective.

You think that I am not aware of it? Logic is what I use and do for living.

Can you please at least explain the logic, on my example image? But at least I/we deserve the explanation of this yet to me unknown logic. Maybe it will make sence after that. Please.

[Raptor9]

@skywalker22, I am not going to go back and forth on this. I've already stated twice that our documentation is quite clear on how this function should work when enabled. And I even stated above to clarify how it should appear:

On 6/27/2023 at 11:00 AM, Raptor9 said:

When TGT SEP is enabled in the F-16, all symbols within an overlapping cluster are separated radially, outward only, away from the highest priority threat within the cluster. However, if edge-limited against the display, further separation cannot be performed, such as is the case if the radars are only in a Search mode.

You may not agree with or like how the function is implemented, but unless you can provide clear evidence to the community managers (from a publicly-approved source of course) that contradicts this, there is nothing more I can say on the matter.

[NineLine]

Let me back up Mr Raptor here as well, we do our very best to follow the legally available documentation that we have, we do not get it 100% right all the time, but we are satisfied here. As he said, if you have more evidence, then supply via PM, otherwise you will need to accept this as it is. Remember what we are dealing with here, these systems are highly sensitive. Please keep all this in mind. 

[Furiz]

How about you make like skywalker22 suggested and THEN we try to proove otherwise?, since obviously no one can proove anything here and his suggestion actually makes some sense

Edited June 28, 2023 by Furiz

[NineLine]

5 minutes ago, Furiz said:

How about you make like skywalker22 suggested and THEN we try to proove otherwise?, since obviously no one can proove anything here and his suggestion actually makes some sense

 

Or we make it based on what we have, with evidence and documentation that we have and SME feedback and put it in the product and if you guys have more evidence that it is not correct we will fix it. 

[skywalker22]

21 minutes ago, NineLine said:

Or we make it based on what we have, with evidence and documentation that we have and SME feedback and put it in the product and if you guys have more evidence that it is not correct we will fix it. 

Almost impossible to proof. Just a common sense, if this is what separation would look like, then it's a complete nonsense having this button, would you agree on that?

Why having it, if it does practically nothing. Check this out, I took these 2 images in a very populated PvP sever 20min ago:

Based on this pic: I am really aware of what's infront of me (joking)... ok, I can use Priority button to show only 5 most dangerous threat, but still...

[BIGNEWY]

we know that sep will expand contacts behind the primary contact. If a search contact (outer ring), you'll not see them obviously. This is only really for radars that are locked or in guidance mode (inner band).

Again if you have unclassified public evidence please provide it and we will take a look, without any we are not going to change this implementation. 

thanks

[skywalker22]

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

we know that sep will expand contacts behind the primary contact. If a search contact (outer ring), you'll not see them obviously. This is only really for radars that are locked or in guidance mode (inner band).

Again if you have unclassified public evidence please provide it and we will take a look, without any we are not going to change this implementation. 

thanks

Sorry, but this doesn't make any sense, any sense at all, at least not to me.

I just don't get it how come is so hard to understand the basic meaning of TGT SEP button? It just doesn't matter the distance nor the azimuth of any threat out there, except the main one with a diamond symbology. So this main one stays exactly in the same spot as before. All others can be placed any where around, just making sure for not overlapping each other. That's it.

I don't know where did you find this documentation of yours, but I am sure it's not from real F-16 Block 50 (or any other version) RWR, just can't be.