what's going on with the pitch control?

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

6 hours ago, shagrat said:

have a look at the in-game stick and adjust the curve so the in-game stick mimics the distance traveled of your own setup

That's pretty much the #1 item on my list of chronological things to do when a new model lands in my lap. I not only look at if small amounts of movement line up with what I have here at home (does 1cm of travel in-game translate to 1cm travelled on my setup), but also if the in-game stick reaches its end-of-travel when my physical one does, and adjust based on that. It's what lead me to put a Y-saturation of 70 on pitch when we first got the Mirage F1 for example (which has since been adjusted).

As others have stated, the flexibility of our home setups leads to the amount of different setups and the amount of DCS players being almost on a 1-to-1 basis. As such, there is no wrong answer. Whatever works for you, works for you. But generally I'd agree that the less you need to mess with curves, saturation and deadzones, the better obviously. But that's in ideal circumstances...

[Baz000]

Definitely something seems super odd with the pitch sensitivity using a Virpil mongoose CM2 base plus 200mm curved extension plus TM F-18 stick… Normally with a 200mm curved extension on any module the in DCS stick is less sensitive because it takes more displacement to move the stick but here, I’m constantly getting PIOs in pitch axis primarily… Not just talking about the takeoff pitching moment… I’m talking about throughout flying the SE.

I don’t need curves on any of my planes, I specifically purchased this flight sim hardware to maintain linear controls so I’m not robbing Peter to pay Paul VIA curves.

It does actually feel like a real plane I have flown T-34B but even that I felt was super sensitive stick controls with only a few mm of displacement… Like if you sneezed you could flip the plane inverted if your hand moved far enough.

[RogueRunner]

Feels like the nose is tied to a rubber band in the vertical axis. I see it in all phases of flight. 

[draconus]

21 hours ago, shagrat said:

Nope, have a look at the in-game stick and adjust the curve so the in-game stick mimics the distance traveled of your own setup.

Since you make it non-linear you can match the distance around the center but you'll sacrifice the extremes at the same time. Yeah, that gives you more precision where it's needed most like landing, AAR, formation but you also get poor control at high G in BFM or aerobatics.

It's a myth that our home sticks are less precise. It's just a matter of scale. RL sticks have much longer throw but they are also not that precise and have big deadzone.

So whatever stick you have 1:1 linear is always preferable and easier on muscle memory as long as you can learn to use it precisely enough. As @Raven (Elysian Angel) says - whatever works for you...

[shagrat]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb draconus:

Since you make it non-linear you can match the distance around the center but you'll sacrifice the extremes at the same time. Yeah, that gives you more precision where it's needed most like landing, AAR, formation but you also get poor control at high G in BFM or aerobatics.

It's a myth that our home sticks are less precise. It's just a matter of scale. RL sticks have much longer throw but they are also not that precise and have big deadzone.

So whatever stick you have 1:1 linear is always preferable and easier on muscle memory as long as you can learn to use it precisely enough. As @Raven (Elysian Angel) says - whatever works for you...

The thing is to get precise control with 1:1 curves, you need a 1:1 stick extension/throw. You can mitigate that through angles with shorter sticks (no extension), but you will have to compromise on precision around the center.

That's why I wanted to point out the "remove all axis adjustment and everything is fine" isn't necessarily the best idea, depending on your setup.

Usually it is a good idea to orient the adjustment on the physical vs. in-game stick.

For example, the TM Warthog has more throw (angles) than a real stick. If you actually put in a 40cm extension to replicate the original control column, the Warthog will allow for a far wider movement than the real stick. So to compensate you would decrease the saturation to reach 100% deflection at a similar angle, compared to in-game. That's why Virpil sells the M50-Base optimised for extensions, while the Warbird-base for desk/non-extension setups.

If you reverse that and use a non-extension TM Warthog on a in-game stick like the F-15E you can use the extended throw (angles) to your advantage, but still around the center the force required to overcome the friction is an issue and often leads to Pilot-Induced-Oscillations, as you mimic 4-5 cm travel in-game with about 1cm travel on your physical stick. That's where compromising a bit of precision at the full deflection edges vs more precise control around the center can help.

The sweet spot is typically different for everyone and if you get more comfortable with a new aircraft and muscle memory kicks in you may even dial it down again, but there is a very good reason ED implemented the option to adjust the axis.

We just need to understand adjusting axis with a shorter stick than in real life is a compromise, sacrificing precision at one end or the other. You need to decide what works best for your setup and gives you the best results. Especially if you fly multiple, different modules with the same setup.

[MAXsenna]

2 hours ago, shagrat said:

For example, the TM Warthog has more throw (angles) than a real stick. If you actually put in a 40cm extension to replicate the original control column, the Warthog will allow for a far wider movement than the real stick.

True. But to mod the Warthog to have a smaller deflection is one of the easiest mods I've ever done. 2x20cm, blue spring here, and it's actually not stiff enough now, and made me find other serious flaws with the Warthog. But I cope for the time being.  

[Chipwich]

What works for me in the DCS Mudhen is 2 units of dead zone and +10 curve on the relevant axis.  I apply it to both pitch and roll.  My stick has an extension and cams that remove the center notch.  I use stiff springs, but there is still enough leverage and weight that the stick will move in a light wind or by breathing     I assume that someone with a short, light, stick, like a Saitek, would have shorter throws and a completely different tune than mine.  One size most definitely doesn't fit all.

I've noticed that there are big differences in pitch sensitivity from a light to heavy F-15E.  That seems correct.  For a while I didn't know to hold the trim button until light/audible warning.  All these things combined, I'm in my happy place now.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Chipwich

[Holbeach]

My 13 Y/O old Saitek gives me no pitch problems. I hold the stick at the top which gives me a 8 inch throw.

20 pitch curve and T/O by numbers. E.G. AA load 65000 lb. rotate at 140 kts. with half stick for 1 second to 12 deg.

..

Edited July 10, 2023 by Holbeach

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

I decided to play around a bit with the Pitch Control switch, which is normally left in AUTO. When I put it in Emergency mode, I got the appropriate Flight Control master caution but I can't see any difference in pitch rate behaviour when I make very small adjustments with my physical joystick.
I slowed down to around M0.6 (280KIAS) to be around the speed at which IFR occurs, then looked at the pitch control indicator which read 0.8-0.85. When I put it in Emergency Mode, that reduced to 0.4. That should mean pitch rate authority is effectively halved, correct (compared to what it was in AUTO: half the amount of stab deflection for the same amount of control stick deflection)? But again, I didn't notice any difference. Perhaps it's just me?
Did anyone else perform that test as well?

[Poptart]

7 hours ago, draconus said:

It's a myth that our home sticks are less precise. It's just a matter of scale. RL sticks have much longer throw but they are also not that precise and have big deadzone.

This is entirely dependent on aircraft. An F-16 stick is very precise and does not have a large deadzone. If you've ever watched an F-15 cockpit video while refueling, you would notice some pretty large stick movements that would send you flying out of control in DCS. If you want to be fairly comfortable while refueling, you need curves.

It's also not true that your BFM ability is compromised. You don't need a ton of precision because large movements of the stick don't correspond to large movements of the airplane at higher aoa. In fact, its pretty easy to keep the plane within a few degrees of a stall in a big turn even with pretty dramatic curves because of the stall warning sound. 

[Theodore42]

3 hours ago, Chipwich said:

For a while I didn't know to hold the trim button until light/audible warning.

 I know some people have started speaking more generally about the FM but imo the vast majority of people empathizing with the OP's problem sound like how it feels to me when I forget to set T/O trim.

1 hour ago, Poptart said:

This is entirely dependent on aircraft. An F-16 stick is very precise and does not have a large deadzone. If you've ever watched an F-15 cockpit video while refueling, you would notice some pretty large stick movements that would send you flying out of control in DCS. If you want to be fairly comfortable while refueling, you need curves.

It's also not true that your BFM ability is compromised. You don't need a ton of precision because large movements of the stick don't correspond to large movements of the airplane at higher aoa. In fact, its pretty easy to keep the plane within a few degrees of a stall in a big turn even with pretty dramatic curves because of the stall warning sound. 

If I set my curves to be comfortable during AAR then I don't have the precision I need during BFM. For example, imagine a turn fight: The difference between gaining and losing 2-3 knots per second is tiny, maybe even less than a tenth of a G. So after just 10 seconds of a turn your precision will have either given you 20-30kts or taken away 20-30 knots. A 40-60 knot difference after just 10 seconds in a turn fight is pretty valuable and I personally don't have the stick range to do that with curves that are comfortable for AAR.

Also, AAR just happens at the one speed but BFM happens across (potentially) the entire spectrum of permitted speeds +/- 50 knots. So imo flatter curves end up giving more precision doing mud hen things even if AAR may be a little uncomfortable.

EDIT:

2 hours ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

I decided to play around a bit with the Pitch Control switch, which is normally left in AUTO. When I put it in Emergency mode, I got the appropriate Flight Control master caution but I can't see any difference in pitch rate behaviour when I make very small adjustments with my physical joystick.
...
Did anyone else perform that test as well?

Ya when I tested the CAS I didn't notice anything and figured it was still WIP. To test it when implemented, set the pitch ratio to emergency but turn off the pitch CAS as well. My understanding is that is what should give you the fun.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Theodore42

[FlankerKiller]

On 7/10/2023 at 3:01 AM, RogueRunner said:

Feels like the nose is tied to a rubber band in the vertical axis. I see it in all phases of flight. 

Dumb question, but do you trimm it? It's not FBW and dose need trim input. 

[Nealius]

I believe he's talking about the nose's tendency to bop up and down. Say you're turning hard and you neutralize pitch on the stick before rolling out, the nose will bunt forward as if you unloaded the stick past neutral even though you didn't. The Mirage F1 and MiG-29 do this as well, but other non-FBW aircraft like the Tomcat, Warthog, and Harrier do not. It could be normal for the Eagle, but we won't know unless there's some SME input here.

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, FlankerKiller said:

Dumb question, but do you trimm it? It's not FBW and dose need trim input. 

It's like the Hornet, if you trim in normal flight with the gear up, you change the g-load the plane auto-trims to.  With the gear down, the behavior's different, I think it trims to AOA (like the Hornet with gear & flaps down).

Practically, that means that with the gear up, you don't mess around with trim.

[FlankerKiller]

3 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

It's like the Hornet, if you trim in normal flight with the gear up, you change the g-load the plane auto-trims to.  With the gear down, the behavior's different, I think it trims to AOA (like the Hornet with gear & flaps down).

Practically, that means that with the gear up, you don't mess around with trim.

I'm not going to argue but that is not at all true. The Hornet is a full fly by wire jets. All you do in a Hornet is tell the computer what you want the jet to do. The Egale has hydronic flight controls with a SAS system. I definitely have to trim, the same as the Harrier which has the same system and is made by the same company. It's more refined the the Tomcat but it's definitely something. I noticed it immediately because ED's FC3 Egale trims like a fly by wire jets. Look I'm not saying it's the player. And it probably is because I spent so much time with the FC3 PFM C model. But I've don't it all with this thing. First time I took it up I did tail slides, flat spins, hight AOA excursions, forced it to depart controlled flight, alaron roles, hard instantaneous turns, constant rate turns name it. Then I took it back and greased the landing. It just felt like a heavy C model. This is probably the best flying and easiest jet for me to fly in DCS right now. I honestly have no idea what pitch issue you are talking about. Maybe it's my control setup. Maybe it's the way I fly. Maybe it's because I abore the use of curves. But it's possible what you are experiencing is PIO. It won't fly like a Hornet and it shouldn't. 

Edited July 11, 2023 by FlankerKiller

[jaylw314]

32 minutes ago, FlankerKiller said:

I'm not going to argue but that is not at all true. The Hornet is a full fly by wire jets. All you do in a Hornet is tell the computer what you want the jet to do. The Egale has hydronic flight controls with a SAS system. I definitely have to trim, the same as the Harrier which has the same system and is made by the same company. It's more refined the the Tomcat but it's definitely something. I noticed it immediately because ED's FC3 Egale trims like a fly by wire jets. Look I'm not saying it's the player. And it probably is because I spent so much time with the FC3 PFM C model. But I've don't it all with this thing. First time I took it up I did tail slides, flat spins, hight AOA excursions, forced it to depart controlled flight, alaron roles, hard instantaneous turns, constant rate turns name it. Then I took it back and greased the landing. It just felt like a heavy C model. This is probably the best flying and easiest jet for me to fly in DCS right now. I honestly have no idea what pitch issue you are talking about. Maybe it's my control setup. Maybe it's the way I fly. Maybe it's because I abore the use of curves. But it's possible what you are experiencing is PIO. It won't fly like a Hornet and it shouldn't. 

 

Ahem.  I said the trim system sort of acts like the Hornet, not that it flies like a Hornet  

[FlankerKiller]

But that might be part of the pitch issue. The Hornet, whatever the state of its FM is, will dampen out a lot of pilot input. This will not. 

Out of curiosity when your having these issues have you tried just letting go of the stick? See what it dose without imput. 

[FlankerKiller]

So I tested this last night, and I turned that bird every way but loose. Yes you have to keep it trimmed or it tries to climb like a home sick angel. Is that correct, or is the FC3 C model correct, don't know. But in DCS you have to keep it in trim, or you will be fighting the trim. If it's a 

On 6/26/2023 at 7:38 PM, Rongor said:

I didn't yet manage a takeoff without oscillating pitch angle after rotating. Also this doesn't get much better during cruise.

Whenever I do pitch inputs with the stick, there is some odd reaction into the opposite direction after a few seconds. This is not happening with roll inputs.

 

 

So I tested this last night, and I turned that bird every way but loose. Yes you have to keep it trimmed or it tries to climb like a home sick angel. Is that correct, or is the FC3 C model correct, don't know. But in DCS you have to keep it in trim, or you will be fighting the trim. If it's a bug then they will fix it. I suspect it isn't, but I'm not an F-15E pilot so I'm not certain. But you do have to remember this is not an FBW jet. It dose have a SAS, or CAS I don't remember what it's called on the Egale. But it won't fly for you. If your used to the Cat it flies like a dream. If your used to the Hornet then it will surprise you. Also if you overspeed you can rip half a wing off. But don't worry it's an F-15 so wing aren't nessasery and you can still land. 

Edited July 12, 2023 by FlankerKiller

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, FlankerKiller said:

So I tested this last night, and I turned that bird every way but loose. Yes you have to keep it trimmed or it tries to climb like a home sick angel. Is that correct, or is the FC3 C model correct, don't know. But in DCS you have to keep it in trim, or you will be fighting the trim. If it's a bug then they will fix it. I suspect it isn't, but I'm not an F-15E pilot so I'm not certain. But you do have to remember this is not an FBW jet. It dose have a SAS, or CAS I don't remember what it's called on the Egale. But it won't fly for you. If your used to the Cat it flies like a dream. If your used to the Hornet then it will surprise you. Also if you overspeed you can rip half a wing off. But don't worry it's an F-15 so wing aren't nessasery and you can still land. 

I guess I don't see what you're seeing, or what you're saying and what you mean are different, you'll need to post a video or track or something.

In the interest of pedantry, CAS is technically a FBW system (there are force transducers in the stick like the F-16), and if the mechanical linkages are all shot out, the plane is still controllable (although both the mechanical and CAS are needed for full control AFAIK).

There's a bit more rabbit hole stuff here, although I'm not 100% sure nothing changed going from the original F-15 to the F-15E:

https://www.f15sim.com/operation/f15_flight_control_system.htm

Edited July 12, 2023 by jaylw314

[FlankerKiller]

9 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

I guess I don't see what you're seeing, or what you're saying and what you mean are different, you'll need to post a video or track or something.

In the interest of pedantry, CAS is technically a FBW system (there are force transducers in the stick like the F-16), and if the mechanical linkages are all shot out, the plane is still controllable (although both the mechanical and CAS are needed for full control AFAIK).

There's a bit more rabbit hole stuff here, although I'm not 100% sure nothing changed going from the original F-15 to the F-15E:

https://www.f15sim.com/operation/f15_flight_control_system.htm

 

I'm not the one who can't fly the plane. So I have no need to post a track of the Mud Hen flying exactly like every real F-15 I've ever seen. Also CAS and fly by wire are totally different. The JSTAR had actuators and force sensors on the yoke. I promise you it's not FBW. The F-15, excluding the EX, uses hydrologic and mechanical linkage to control the jet with a Control Augmentation System to help stabilize the jet. You could take the CAS components out and beat them flat with a hammer, and still fly the F-15, albeit it isn't safe because you could easily fly it into destruction. But you could take off and land. In short YOU are flying an F-15, excluding the EX.

The Hornet is Fly By Wire. It is "flown" by a flight control computer. You "tell" the computer what you want the jet to do and the computer moves the flight controls the accomplish it as best it can. That is why you can ham fist it and it's fine. You Are Not Flying a Hornet. If that computer gose out you eject period. You have no control over the flight controls. 

As for what I'm telling you I'll make it simple. If the nose is pitching up when you release the stick press the trim nose down button until it flys level when you release the stick. Your pitching problem will immediately disappear. As for this being correct or not I'm not sure. If the CAS is supposed to auto trim then Razbam will fix it. If it dosen't auto trim then get used to it. 

[KlarSnow]

If you are taking off with takeoff trim you do have to trim that out otherwise it will be trimmed by default to a pitch up condition. 
Once that is trimmed out I have not had to mess with trim at all. So I’m not really sure what the issue you are having with it continuing to climb is.

press takeoff trim button until you hear the “yaw rate” and the light goes green prior to takeoff. Once airborne and the gear/flaps are cleaned up I put 4-5 clicks of nose down trim until it’s hands off 1G level flight and then I don’t touch the trim hat anymore.

[FlankerKiller]

 Once leveled out above 250 I mostly leave it alone. At below 200 I do have to put in nose up trim to keep it level. Thing flys like a dream. I cannot wait till it's a bit more fleshed out systems wise. 

[jaylw314]

4 hours ago, FlankerKiller said:

I'm not the one who can't fly the plane. So I have no need to post a track of the Mud Hen flying exactly like every real F-15 I've ever seen. Also CAS and fly by wire are totally different. The JSTAR had actuators and force sensors on the yoke. I promise you it's not FBW. The F-15, excluding the EX, uses hydrologic and mechanical linkage to control the jet with a Control Augmentation System to help stabilize the jet. You could take the CAS components out and beat them flat with a hammer, and still fly the F-15, albeit it isn't safe because you could easily fly it into destruction. But you could take off and land. In short YOU are flying an F-15, excluding the EX.

The Hornet is Fly By Wire. It is "flown" by a flight control computer. You "tell" the computer what you want the jet to do and the computer moves the flight controls the accomplish it as best it can. That is why you can ham fist it and it's fine. You Are Not Flying a Hornet. If that computer gose out you eject period. You have no control over the flight controls. 

As for what I'm telling you I'll make it simple. If the nose is pitching up when you release the stick press the trim nose down button until it flys level when you release the stick. Your pitching problem will immediately disappear. As for this being correct or not I'm not sure. If the CAS is supposed to auto trim then Razbam will fix it. If it dosen't auto trim then get used to it. 

I refer you to Mr. Laobi

[doedkoett]

4 hours ago, KlarSnow said:

If you are taking off with takeoff trim you do have to trim that out otherwise it will be trimmed by default to a pitch up condition. 
Once that is trimmed out I have not had to mess with trim at all. So I’m not really sure what the issue you are having with it continuing to climb is.

press takeoff trim button until you hear the “yaw rate” and the light goes green prior to takeoff. Once airborne and the gear/flaps are cleaned up I put 4-5 clicks of nose down trim until it’s hands off 1G level flight and then I don’t touch the trim hat anymore.

It seems lite take off trim is already selected when hot starting, in case anyone wonders why it behaves like it´s in t/o-trim even if it hasn't been selected.
Not the world's greatest stick shaker here, but FWIW I almost only touch the pitch trim after start (nose down) and to trim it for on speed landing (nose up). Then again, when flying straight and level I let the A/P do all the work for me.

[shagrat]

vor 17 Stunden schrieb jaylw314:

I guess I don't see what you're seeing, or what you're saying and what you mean are different, you'll need to post a video or track or something.

In the interest of pedantry, CAS is technically a FBW system (there are force transducers in the stick like the F-16), and if the mechanical linkages are all shot out, the plane is still controllable (although both the mechanical and CAS are needed for full control AFAIK).

There's a bit more rabbit hole stuff here, although I'm not 100% sure nothing changed going from the original F-15 to the F-15E:

https://www.f15sim.com/operation/f15_flight_control_system.htm

 

"Technically" every aircraft that has an electronic component, that controls the hydraulic or mechanical connection to the control surfaces is "FBW" (basically a stick that uses a potentiometer to steer a servo-motor that moves the control surface is "FBW").

In today's terms FBW in combat aircraft usually refers to the controls being managed, linked and optimized by a flight computer. Any augmentation system (SCAS,SAS,CAS) typically has a very limited authority over some or all control surfaces, in order to filter, dampen or compensate pilot inputs in favor of flight stability. A "real" (common term) FBW system typically controls all or at least most controls with way more authority to limit or correct pilot inputs in a certain regime and calculates adjustments to all surfaces to prevent departure from controlled flight... At least that is my take on the FBW terminology.

So an F-15/F-15E may technically be called FBW, but it is a very different FBW than in the F-16C, Eurofighter Typhoon or Rafale, etc.