what's going on with the pitch control?

[Death Merchant]

20 hours ago, Holbeach said:

70000lb. T/O.

Set T/O trim.

Full AB. At rotation speed, 155 kts give half stick for 1 sec. for 12 deg attitude.

Nose wheel lift off at 170 kts.

Lift off at 190 kts.

Gear up, flaps up, trim fwd.

From the RL manual. Works perfectly.

 

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What is the RL manual? Real-Life?

Do you have a link?

Thanks.

[Nealius]

On 6/28/2023 at 4:42 AM, Rainmaker said:

  Watch the pilots right arm during rotation and how stick pressure is released once rotation starts to catch the nose.  

The nose lifting up is much smoother and slower than pretty much any jet we have in DCS. I don't know if it's because I don't have rotation/TO speeds calculated or if it's because of the way DCS models tire friction, but it seems like the nose wheel is "glued" to the runway then suddenly and quickly separates, rapidly throwing the nose up in half a second. 

Edited June 29, 2023 by Nealius

[WizzRD]

1 hour ago, Nealius said:

but it seems like the nose wheel is "glued" to the runway then suddenly and quickly separates, rapidly throwing the nose up in half a second. 

If it feels sticky you are still too slow.

Tha manual is out there, get it. And as I said earlier add 10 kts to the TO speed and it´ll takeoff smooth and controlled like you can see in any youtube video. The video posted earlier here also has some nice TO where one can also see that they trim down right after takeoff.

[Holbeach]

4 hours ago, Death Merchant said:

What is the RL manual? Real-Life?

Do you have a link?

Thanks.

Might exceed forum rules.

Search net for F15 1993 flight manual.

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Edited June 29, 2023 by Holbeach

[Death Merchant]

19 hours ago, Holbeach said:

Might exceed forum rules.

Search net for F15 1993 flight manual.

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Thanks for the help. The only copy I managed to find is a pretty crappy scan.

Would you mind pinging me on discord, if you have a decent copy that you would be willing to share?

Death-Merchant#5860

[Nealius]

Added a curve of 10 on the pitch axis and, at least on missions without wind and turbulence, takeoffs are pretty smooth.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

Yes I'll be keeping my curve of +10 on pitch as well  

[jaylw314]

On 6/27/2023 at 12:42 PM, Rainmaker said:

  Watch the pilots right arm during rotation and how stick pressure is released once rotation starts to catch the nose.  

Holy cow, now I don't feel so bad about my takeoffs.  I felt like I was having to work the stick pretty hard after rotation, and you can see him doing the same trying to hold the correct pitch attitude, albeit a bit less spastically than me Thanks!

[BIGNEWY]

Folks a reminder, please do not post real world manuals here on the forum 

Please check our 1.16 rule. 

thank you

[Death Merchant]

17 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Folks a reminder, please do not post real world manuals here on the forum 

Please check our 1.16 rule. 

thank you

Yep.. we're taking it offline.

No worries.

[Inverted-Cobra-Maneuver]

Almost certain this an Eagle thing. I've had this exact effect when I fly the F-15C and also on an F-15 mod for MFS2020. Mad fun when I'm flying low and end up bending the wings from over G when trying to counter it. I've tried adjusting the curve settings and nothing gets rid of it, Can someone else confirm that this is normal?

[draconus]

On 7/3/2023 at 2:40 PM, Inverted-Cobra-Maneuver said:

Mad fun when I'm flying low and end up bending the wings from over G when trying to counter it.

No, definitely not normal.

Also, guys, it's getting more realistic in DCS so the aircraft no longer fly on rails, don't count pixels vs virtual horizon.

Edited July 5, 2023 by draconus

[Inverted-Cobra-Maneuver]

6 hours ago, draconus said:

No, definitely not normal.

Indeed bending the wings like that is not normal, I was trying to ask are the slight pitch oscillations normal? Also wondering what the technical reason for this would be as almost every other aircraft in DCS doesn't seem to do it.

I've never flown aircraft IRL and I'm an aviation noob in general, Please forgive me for sounding uneducated.

Edited July 5, 2023 by Inverted-Cobra-Maneuver

[claysanger]

Since I didn’t see anyone who was reporting pitch / takeoff problems mention it in this thread — are you STILL having pitch problems AFTER you rotate and counter your T/O trim?

My first Strike Eagle takeoff including a noisy tail strike and some chuckling. Then I eased up on the aft stick and sequenced countering my T/O trim in as my gear and flaps come up and all is well  

Very gentle back pressure at rotate speed and she floats into the air like a feather. 
 

Then you have to trim nose down to counter the T/O trim as the gear and flaps come up. 
 

Whether that is “normal/realistic” Strike Eagle behavior I can’t say - but it does apply to the current state of the FM. 

[Scofflaw]

On 7/5/2023 at 10:20 AM, Inverted-Cobra-Maneuver said:

Indeed bending the wings like that is not normal, I was trying to ask are the slight pitch oscillations normal? Also wondering what the technical reason for this would be as almost every other aircraft in DCS doesn't seem to do it.

I've never flown aircraft IRL and I'm an aviation noob in general, Please forgive me for sounding uneducated.

 

I've noticed oscillations during aerial refueling.  I'm fairly certain in my case it's PIO - I'll be a bit low, adjust to come up a bit, then notice I'm coming up too fast, so I adjust down, and end up doing a sine-wave dance below the tanker.  I fly the F14, 15, 16, and 18 regularly, and this is the only aircraft where I experience this.

Not sure if this will help you, but sometimes to rule out control issues, I'll put some exaggerated curves to see if the issue goes away.  If it does, I adjust the curve, if not, I look elsewhere.

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, claysanger said:

Since I didn’t see anyone who was reporting pitch / takeoff problems mention it in this thread — are you STILL having pitch problems AFTER you rotate and counter your T/O trim?

My first Strike Eagle takeoff including a noisy tail strike and some chuckling. Then I eased up on the aft stick and sequenced countering my T/O trim in as my gear and flaps come up and all is well  

Very gentle back pressure at rotate speed and she floats into the air like a feather. 
 

Then you have to trim nose down to counter the T/O trim as the gear and flaps come up. 
 

Whether that is “normal/realistic” Strike Eagle behavior I can’t say - but it does apply to the current state of the FM. 

If you watch the video @Rainmaker posted, you can see the pilot's arm after rotation.  Unfortunately, you can't see the stick, but it does look like he's making some pretty significant corrections to keep the pitch stable during takeoff.

[JIMJAM]

Feels great on a TM Warthog thr/stick/pedals using DEFAULT curves. Fist thing to do is STOP mucking with all those curves and reset them. Get use to the way the jet feels and fly the plane. Don't fly the curves, deadzones/sensitivities/ and who knows what others. I saw a guy flying the F16 with this like 3 foot extended stick wondering why it was "hard." Read pilot reports on handling, read the charts/manuals. Fly the jet. I mean its yours so you can turn a C-152 into a rolling like a Pitt Special and turn a T-38 into as stable as a glider... I fly the 14/15/16 etc like the devs/pilot test guys handed it to me. If they say thats how it is, that good enough for me.

Edited July 8, 2023 by JIMJAM

[Nodak]

After pushing the take off trim reset button and taking off lite weight weapons empty for training, I give it three good bumps on forward trim than take off, works well for me.  You can go external and check the actual stab position to get a good idea what works best for the situation.

[jaylw314]

25 minutes ago, Nodak said:

After pushing the take off trim reset button and taking off lite weight weapons empty for training, I give it three good bumps on forward trim than take off, works well for me.  You can go external and check the actual stab position to get a good idea what works best for the situation.

My understanding is that the TO trim keeps the autotrim (Pitch Trim Compensator) from doing something wonky before rotation, and the if you trim before rotation it can delay rotation by a significant amount.  Of course, I have no idea what this means in DCS, so if it works you're probably good

 

[FlankerKiller]

Maybe it's because I've got like 1000hr is ED's F-15C. But I took the thing off with no issues, did some acrobatics, a tail slide, and RTB into probably the best overhead break I've ever performed. But again from 2015 till about 2019 just about all I flew was the F-15 with the PFM. This jet flies so similar it just felt like an old glove. I wasn't going to buy it, but the F-15, all variants, is my all time favorite aircraft. I was stationed at Robins where the Depot is. It never got old seeing the post depot flight checks. Also I'm not trying to down anyone's skills. It took me years to be able to land the C model without damaging it. 

[Etask]

16 ore fa, JIMJAM ha scritto:

Feels great on a TM Warthog thr/stick/pedals using DEFAULT curves. Fist thing to do is STOP mucking with all those curves and reset them. Get use to the way the jet feels and fly the plane. Don't fly the curves, deadzones/sensitivities/ and who knows what others. I saw a guy flying the F16 with this like 3 foot extended stick wondering why it was "hard." Read pilot reports on handling, read the charts/manuals. Fly the jet. I mean its yours so you can turn a C-152 into a rolling like a Pitt Special and turn a T-38 into as stable as a glider... I fly the 14/15/16 etc like the devs/pilot test guys handed it to me. If they say thats how it is, that good enough for me.

 

Yes but the real F15 stick is much longer than a TM warthog, unless you’re using an extension. Leaving the default settings will feel very different depending on the length of your stick, with curves you can “simulate” having a longer stick…

[Nealius]

Even with a 20cm extension I had to add a curve to the pitch axis for a better feel. The Mudhen isn't the only module I've had to do that on. Fact of the matter is that everyone's hardware is different, and thus everyone's curves will be different.

[Inverted-Cobra-Maneuver]

On 7/7/2023 at 3:31 PM, Scofflaw said:

Not sure if this will help you, but sometimes to rule out control issues, I'll put some exaggerated curves to see if the issue goes away.  If it does, I adjust the curve, if not, I look elsewhere.

This did help, I spent some more time adjusting the curves and found that a positive 10 curve makes a noticeable difference during TO, Also I need to invest in a better stick setup. I could've swore that I've heard an Eagle pilot mention something about having to get used to the flight controls in an interview, Ill have to spend some time searching through my history but if I find it Ill post it with the timestamp.

[shagrat]

Am 8.7.2023 um 04:25 schrieb JIMJAM:

Fist thing to do is STOP mucking with all those curves and reset them. Get use to the way the jet feels and fly the plane. Don't fly the curves, deadzones/sensitivities/ and who knows what others.

Nope, have a look at the in-game stick and adjust the curve so the in-game stick mimics the distance traveled of your own setup. Preferably, if it is a long throw center-stick, add an extension. If it is Sidestick with force-sensing (F-16C) adjust accordingly (reduce/remove curve and adjust saturation).

If your stick "jumps" or "drifts" in center position, add a deadzone, or you'll never be able to trim properly, or for helicopters re-center easily.

If your setup is a more or less 1:1 replica of the real life controls setup (stick length, center mount vs. side-mount) you shouldn't need to adjust any axis, at least only marginal. But if you try to fly a warbird, helicopter or jet with a center mount stick that is 40-60cm high, with a 20cm sidestick, you sure want to at least consider tuning the axis such that a small movement of your physical stick doesn't throw the in-game stick one third of its travel...

[Holbeach]

19 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

My understanding is that the TO trim keeps the autotrim (Pitch Trim Compensator) from doing something wonky before rotation, and the if you trim before rotation it can delay rotation by a significant amount.  Of course, I have no idea what this means in DCS, so if it works you're probably good

 

TO trim when adjusted to the green light, gives a nose up bias to the stabilator.

This is required to give the extra authority required for correct rotation and if not applied correctly, will add to the T/O distance.

The trim has to be adjusted forward after gear and flaps are raised, in order to return the trim to normal.

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