Have a great vid card, "game rig", amazing HOTAS... but modules too expensive?!? I don't get it

[Rick50]

 

Ok, something's been annoying me for a while. Doesn't come up every day, but every now and then I see a post that goes something like:

"I hope they spread out the release dates, and have a  module sale early, because I can't afford to buy module A and module Y at the same time."

Now... I get that for a great many  people, the price of a product might be too high for someone at times in their lives.

But the part I don't get is, a gaming rig is not cheap. nor are good solid GPU's. And even basic flight stick is anywhere from the price of a full module at release, to a huge investment for a quality HOTAS with great pedals, outstripping even a top end new gaming rig. And then you feel the need to upgrade your GPU, maybe add some more RAM.

It's an expensive hobby, no doubt. But then I hear people complaining about this or that module being "too expensive", or "why only 20% off the sale?"

 

What.the.HECK.?!?

 

I get that times are tough, and things are sometimes not affordable. But... of all the items we buy for experiencing DCS, aren't the modules themselves, EVEN AT FULL PRICE, the most inexpensive piece of the DCS budget ?? 

Ok, ok, yes, if you buy EVERY single module, then yea, the total module cost for every aircraft, every warbird, every rotorbird, every "Teen fighter", add them all up, that's a LOT of serious coin. But then, those who are on a real tight budget, are you actually buying EVERY module? is a 20% off sale still unaffordable to you?

Or am I misreading the situation: gaming rig is 7 years old, GPU 4 years old, don't have a full HOTAS but making do with a 7 year old T.16000m and saving up for a pair of used rudders? All modules that you DO have, and not that many in total, were bought on %50 sales?

Look, I'm not trying to criticise, few of us can have unlimited funds for a hobby. I'm just trying to better understand the situation of the truly budget-minded DCS pilots, perhaps in the hopes of greater understanding for the industry, and the community as well. So if you are in this kind of situation, and you wish to share, then please share as much, or as little, as you are comfortable! 

Things to share might include: your current specs, when you last upgraded hardware, a rough idea of modules and maps you bought, a rough idea of your money situation, how you manage to enjoy the DCS hobby despite limitations, how has your hobby strategy changed over time?

In general it's good to share, especially if it helps gain understanding among others!

Edit: for myself, I got GPU's used from friends, and I also buy HOTAS used for cash. 

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by Rick50

[Dragon1-1]

Not everyone flies with an expensive HOTAS, or a high end gaming rig. A 7 year old T.16000M is a perfectly viable kit, as is an antiquated CH set. In fact, CH is a very good choice, if you can find it. It's not top line TM or Winwing kit, but it's the next best thing. A 1080ti, a very old GPU at this point, is perfectly capable of running DCS, even in VR. Case in a point, that's what I'm using. On a screen, you could get away with less, as long as you're willing to compromise on visuals a little. You seem to have an inflated impression of hardware that is required to fly in DCS. It's really not that much unless you're either trying to use a 4K TV or a VR headset. On a full HD flat screen, the requirements are very reasonable.

Also, depending on which country you're in, hardware can be cheaper, possibly much cheaper than you'd expect from USD prices, especially in 2nd hand market. DCS modules do not scale nearly as well. If you want to use the store, you pay US prices no matter where you are in the world. Steam is better, but only a little. If you're in a country that uses a currency that's much weaker, in real terms, than USD, then you're getting screwed over on that arrangement. Hardware, being bought locally, largely conforms to local pricing peculiarities (except top shelf stuff, but most people don't use that). To make matters worse, ED refuses to implement regional pricing, so customers from most countries around the world are driven to Steam to avoid being bilked.

Try living in a country that uses a currency other than USD, EUR or GBP and you'll soon realize why people complain about pricing.

[MAXsenna]

Yeah, I agree. I have every module and DLC, except for the last four released campaigns, and still the total will be less than 20% of what I payed for my computer 10 years ago. (Need a new one I guess).
I have opted to purchase modules and peripherals instead. Both used and brand new.
So I don't get why people complain about prices. Might be that with hardware you sort of know what you get, while some modules seems to be stuck in early access, which I don't mind at all.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[MAXsenna]

45 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

If you're in a country that uses a currency that's much weaker, in real terms, than USD, then you're getting screwed over on that arrangement.

 

49 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

To make matters worse, ED refuses to implement regional pricing, so customers from most countries around the world are driven to Steam to avoid being bilked.

I don't understand your sentiment. Should 3rd parties which it seems mostly resides in Europe or similar countries Take the hit? This is not a AAA game that can afford running regional prices. The cost of living in EU/US/CAN/AUS/NZ can be extensive. Especially for a small team.

Cheers!

[Dragon1-1]

Regional prices would likely actually increase sales in those countries, and thus result in a profit increase. It's actually a fallacy that increasing pricing increases profits, an increase in price will typically lead to a drop in sales. Conversely, a drop in price is typically associated with an increase in sales. There's a few situations where that relationship inverts, but it's broadly true. This is economics 101.

Now, whether that increase in sales translates to an increase in profits does indeed depend on pricing, each good has a sweet spot where it brings maximum profits. However, what is universally true is that this sweet spot will be in a different place depending on the economic situation in a given country. If you only offer one price, you'll be underpricing your product in some markets and overpricing it in others, costing you money in each case. As such, "can't afford regional pricing" is BS unless the web store backend is so crap that adding it would, by itself, incur a significant development cost (which, admittedly, could wipe out any gains from regional pricing if the ED store is as much of a mess as DCS core is).

[Mr_sukebe]

I agree with the OP.

You have a think about the prices charged and I do wonder how they do it for the price, particularly so when compared to some other software out there.

[MAXsenna]

@Dragon1-1
Apologies, I got sidetracked. I don't think OP had users like you and me in mind. I'm pretty sure OP was referring to users in the Western world where they brag about their rig and peripherals in their signature, while complaining about the price of modules.
And to be honest, DCS is such a niche product that I don't think that a lower price will sell lots of more modules in lesser economies in any case. In my country it's 10 NOK to the dollar, yet I find DCS modules pretty decent prize wise, especially on sales.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Rudel_chw]

2 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It's actually a fallacy that increasing pricing increases profits, an increase in price will typically lead to a drop in sales. Conversely, a drop in price is typically associated with an increase in sales... This is economics 101.

 

From my Economics 101 days, did you ever heard about "Inelastic demand" ? ... DCS is a niche product and thus even if they drop the price of a module, its demand will increase only slightly, because most users that were interested on it, have already purchased it.

[LucShep]

I get both views, of ones that complain about the pricing and of those who complain about the complainers.

On one hand, one has to consider the brutal investment on resources, docs and research and workforce, to produce a DCS module. Quality is excelent in most of them, and that has got to cost, no doubt.
One thing that I'm trully grateful for is that ED has the trial period, for us to test modules. And, of course, the discount sales periods. Otherwise, I would have never been able to get all the modules that I enjoy and cherish so much.

But the point (the other hand) that the OP and a few other of you seem to be missing is, that a large part of the user base does not only use DCS. Or understanding the level of sacrifice people might be making (or not) just to keep up performance, which for quite some years has not improved (doubt me? ...then try a version dated two year plus -prior to 2.7-  in VR and tell me I'm wrong. Pllease). 

I understand there are a small percentage that only uses DCS and there's nothing else in their "gaming life".  Good for you if so.
I'm sure I'm not alone saying that I also enjoy other flight-sims beyond DCS, and get myself around other genres of PC gaming (racing-sims, mil-sims, RPG, RTS, Action Adventure, etc). Those cost money too, to acquire or to add more content.

I had to wait and save for two years to get a GPU that could actually run DCS as it should be. Two friggin years later a second-hand GPU at nearly the price of national mininum wage (and starts to feel that it soon may not be enough). And a better stick and throtle - again second-hand. I tried VR and that was my bane (like a drug, should have never tried it) as there and then I decided I had to get one (a decent one... again second-hand!). I had to add another 32GB to my system, because of DCS and none other sim/game in current exhistence (none that I know of, or own - and got quite a few) requires this much RAM.

So yeah. Money doesn't grow on trees, but there's more than one way to skin a cat. I do fine with second-hand stuff, so long as it's good and serves its purposes (and mine). 
I can live with that.

But please don't insult the intelligence of your fellow members with populism rubish like "a much older system with a 1080Ti can run DCS just fine, even in VR" , when the truth is the only way such a system would be running 2.8 in VR is in utter-potato mode, while pretending that there is no st-t-t-t-tuttering. And if so, in all fairness, you'd certainly better be running 2.56 or earlier versions to make that feel right, for yourself as well. Otherwise (in 2nd half of 2023, for 2.8+ versions) you're either ignorant or fooling yourself by keeping standards (even) lower just to keep going with the flow.

Yes modules are expensive, rightly or not is another matter. Either way, people have a right to complain about the modules cost, if maintaining the whole thing going (which should be improving dramatically performance wise, and isn't!) every year and/or for the next one is already expensive enough.
You don't get it?  Well... maybe you should try to put yourself in other people's shoes then.

Edited August 23, 2023 by LucShep
spelling(?)

[Rick50]

3 hours ago, LucShep said:

Yes modules are expensive, rightly or not is another matter. Either way, people have a right to complain about the modules cost, if maintaining the whole thing going (which should be improving dramatically performance wise, and isn't!) every year and/or for the next one is already expensive enough.
You don't get it?  Well... maybe you should try to put yourself in other people's shoes then.

 

Of course people have the right to complain. Many exercise their rights to complain about a great many things on the regular, myself included!

 

And yes, I DIDN'T "GET IT".

 

Which is EXACTLY why I asked the original post/question in the first place:  to help me feel "other people's shoes",  and gain some understanding directly from people actually in the situation. I reached out, to understand. Sometimes it's not easy to put oneself in others' shoes when you don't understand their reality, don't understand the details of "why". Sometimes it needs more than just empathy, it needs actual descriptions from those other points of view. At least I'm trying, instead of dismissing.

Keep in mind, there was a time, when I couldn't afford anything like this. So someone gave me a nice used computer that had quite a bit of power. Problem was, I  couldn't afford a solid gaming vid card (before GPU's started being called GPU's).  And for a time I flew some Migs and Sturmovics and other birds in a frozen land...  got the software for maybe 80% off of original price. Had to scrape and scrape money to get a very inexpensive stick, a Wingman ? didn't work well, returned it and got a Cyborg instead. Very inexpensive, but tough for me to justify spending. Things are very different for me today.

[Dragon1-1]

8 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

From my Economics 101 days, did you ever heard about "Inelastic demand" ? ... DCS is a niche product and thus even if they drop the price of a module, its demand will increase only slightly, because most users that were interested on it, have already purchased it.

True in the USD/EUR market, not necessarily in other countries, which is my point. Regional pricing would unlock markets that are held back due to USD price being too high. To some extent, Steam does exactly that, and this is why it and not ED store dominates the international market.

[Beirut]

DCS ain't cheap. Not if you go the enthusiast route. On the other hand DCS isn't like any other game. 

 

You want THE cutting edge military jet fighter/helicopter simulator at your fingertips? Dig deep, baby! But there's nowhere else you can have a single platform with so many cool high-fidelity planes and choppers and all that delicious "Kaboom!"

 

I'd be happy if people in countries with a "different financial system" could get a break on module prices, but I don't have the answer to that concern. I'm not a finance guy, just a worker bee. 

[Eugel]

On 8/23/2023 at 10:20 AM, Dragon1-1 said:

True in the USD/EUR market, not necessarily in other countries, which is my point. Regional pricing would unlock markets that are held back due to USD price being too high. To some extent, Steam does exactly that, and this is why it and not ED store dominates the international market.

I´m no expert on this, but wouldn´t that also open up a possibility for exploit through VPN ? I know that for example on steam, there´s a lot of key resellers who buy cheap keys and sell them in other markets.

 

On topic: I can understand that people would want to save money wherever they can.
But on a personal level I agree with the initial statement. I probably spent like 10 times more on hardware than on all my DCS modules. So I sometimes can´t really understand when people get upset when they only get a 33% discount instead of a 50% discount or stuff like that.

[sirrah]

I've been lurking this forum for many years, and sure, there's quite some complaining and moaning at times, but I can't recall seeing many complaints about modules prices. Of course there's always an occasional individual, but, with all respect, does that really call for this thread?

(Or perhaps all these module price complaints are found on a subforum I don't visit)

 

Now, if this thread was about all people complaining about slow development, I could understand that. I mean, that happens on a daily basis, but complaining about module costs, or too little discount, just wondering; where do I find all these complaints?

Edited August 24, 2023 by sirrah

[Eugel]

28 minutes ago, sirrah said:

but complaining about module costs, or too little discount, just wondering; where do I find all these complaints?

 

The steam review section is full of that, I guess about half of the "reviews" complain about prices. 
But granted, the people writing these "reviews" probably aren´t typical DCS players.

But, occasionally, there are threads like this:

 

Edited August 24, 2023 by Eugel

[sirrah]

12 minutes ago, Eugel said:

The steam review section is full of that, I guess about half of the "reviews" complain about prices. 
But granted, the people writing these "reviews" probably aren´t typical DCS players.

But, occasionally, there are threads like this:

 

 

Ahh that explains it, I never visit Steam forums (and after reading your reply, I'll stay away from there )

[BitMaster]

I have 10x more understanding for the module prices where they are and have been in contrast to the inflated prices for good silicon. That is a much deeper rabbit hole.

 

I own most of DCS despite I almost retired from flying it seriously, maybe in the future when life calms down again, till then, I keep collecting and skip the GPU...LoL.

 

Jensen, no way I play your game.

[Dragon1-1]

8 hours ago, Eugel said:

I´m no expert on this, but wouldn´t that also open up a possibility for exploit through VPN ? I know that for example on steam, there´s a lot of key resellers who buy cheap keys and sell them in other markets.

As a rule, it's more trouble than it's worth for individuals, and for resellers it would violate the store license, therefore risking their keys being invalidated. That risk should be enough to keep most players from using them. This is one reason why shady Steam resellers are not a major problem for other games. With DCS especially, it'd probably be rather poor business, and any attempts at advertising would get them noticed and shut down.

[Aquorys]

Personally I think in relation to how much people complain about wanting this and that and wanting everything to be super realistic the modules are pretty cheap. Maybe some of y'all would want to look up what companies charge per hour for a decent C++ developer and then think about the modules' price tags again...

[MAXsenna]

4 hours ago, BitMaster said:

I keep collecting and skip the GPU...LoL.

Same here!

43 minutes ago, Aquorys said:

Personally I think in relation to how much people complain about wanting this and that and wanting everything to be super realistic the modules are pretty cheap. Maybe some of y'all would want to look up what companies charge per hour for a decent C++ developer and then think about the modules' price tags again...

Absolutely! 

[Rick50]

 

I'm not wanting to suggest that there's a gigantic invading army of "but why can't %50 off?!?" complainers!

 

Rather that I occasionally see such a comment, more to the tune of "I hope the Strike Eagle and the Phantom don't come out at the same time, I can't afford both", to which, I'm simpathetic to their plight of not having enough disposable income, but it inevitably makes me wonder "...but... but you have a HOTAS and a good GPU... but can't afford two modules in the same month?!?" 

Followed by "why don't they save up $10/month during months that they don't buy modules, then when that A-maZing module comes, you can buy it 'cash' no borrowing?"

 

But I guess even $10-20 a month of saving up, is probably too much money for disposable income that isn't for the wife or kids, for those who are maybe less well off, in a country that has poor monetary exchange rates. 

Even the difference in price costs between Canada and the USA sometimes has us scratching our heads in visible confusion... go watch a Canadian visitor wander into a rural American Walmart, standing there slack-jawed at the retail prices... It must be a much more extreme version of that for some of our brothers and sisters in other regions of the world, like South America, or Africa, for instance. I remember a long time ago, someone from Brazil told me that to buy a top end gaming video card (a GPU before they were called GPU's) was almost like buying gold, (maybe around 2003 or so?). He could afford it... but he was making more money than 95% of Brazilian citizens at the time, I think he was in São Paulo finance industry maybe? 

[MustangSally]

I don't get it either. I don't have the right to complain about the cost of modules considering the amount of money I've spent on my sim pit

[MadKreator]

     I think some of that “complaining” stems from people seeing entire new AAA games costing the same as one aircraft in DCS. Blows some peoples minds. Or, why is the Hornet in DCS $80 usd and the one in FS2020 is only $15 ( or whatever it is). Maybe only applies to newcomers, who don’t realize it takes longer to make one DCS aircraft than it does to re-skin COD every year. I try to judge the price by the amount of fun I have for the money.
     Here in the US people blow a lot of money on crap. Pack of cigarettes a day, thats a new module you could have bought in less than two weeks. Then some overpriced snacks while you're standing in line at the gas station to get smokes.. well there’s two modules you could have had in a month. McDonalds once a day for a week, there’s another one. Anyone ever gone to a casino?? I know I’ve blown through several modules worth of money in a matter of hours, plus drinks food, gas, hotel etc.
     Point being, IMO they are well worth the price. BUT I can wholeheartedly empathize with people from other countries, Turkey, Brazil etc, where that $80 usd module could be your apartment rent/ mortgage for a month, or an entire month wage for some.
     Now that being said, there is a healthy chunk of people who just piss and moan about everything, just because they can, justified or not. A gal the other day rolled into a storage facility I was doing some camera upgrades to in a brand new AMG SL55. Dressed like she’s made of gold. Proceeds to come in, just to chew out the manager and complain about her $65/ month storage unit price, then leftSome people just can’t help it

[diego999]

Depends on the module really.

In my country $80 is a lot. But I don't complain when it comes to, for example, the Hornet or the Viper (I own both actually). But those are complex machines with in-depth modeled systems and a lot of weapons. So there is much to learn and have fun with.

On the other hand, $60 for the MB-339, an airplane that had no radar, no HUD, no navigation, no complex systems and with its whole arsenal consisting in a few bombs and rockets? Way too expensive. 

My 0.02

Edited August 31, 2023 by diego999
typo

[SharpeXB]

The $20 I spent for the A-10C on a Steam sale 11 years and hundreds of hours ago certainly represents the best gaming value per dollar I’ve ever spent