partially reported Incorrect Cockpit Layouts for P-47D-30/40

[SRF_Robert]

Hello everyone,

The DCS P-47 is very well done. However, improvements to the module will always attract more consumers. So, there are some inaccuracies apparent in the DCS P-47D cockpit.

My Background: I have been involved at the CAF for 7 years. Specifically, CAF SoCal Wing. Have spoken and worked with vets from WWII, Korea, and Vietnam and friend of during this period. We also have a private library with hundreds of technical manuals and documents. With this, I provide only precise information with my findings.

For the DCS P-47, there are 4 features missing that I would like to bring forth.

 

1. The P-47D-30 with gyro sight features a dimmer knob and sight selector on the same unit. The same unit left of the DCS P-51D K-14 gyro sight as well. The DCS P-47D is missing this control unit on the right thigh panel. 

Picture: (4th photo)

2. Tail Warning Radar – same as DCS P-51D (Field mod). The light and bell are located left of the K-14 sight in the P-47D-40 (Only model with evidence). The control unit for the field mod is located behind the IFF destructor box.

Picture on unit in cockpit: (2nd photo)

 

Picture of unit for proof on P-47N manual: (3rd photo)

 

3. Rear View Mirror – in the form of: plexiglass on canopy, truck mirror reused on front canopy, dedicated mirror inside cockpit. Field mod. This was more favorable than the tail radar. Not every P-47 had this, but experienced pilots knew the mirror was important.

-Picture of Variations are included: (1st, 6th, 7th)

 

4. Pilot Headrest – this should be factory. Pictures provided.

 

Again, the module is very well done and it’s obvious the developers have created a warbird module never done as accurately and precisely as this depicted. However, improvement is always a beneficial virtue to seek and so I believe these additions will only make DCS stronger in WWII.

 

Thank you all,

 

Rob

Edited August 31, 2023 by SRF_Robert

[Brigg]

Agreed Rob, ED have certainly raised the bar on quality when it comes the Jug. These few minor corrections/adjustments would again take it to another level 

[peachmonkey]

we definitely don't have the rear radar in our P47...

[Art-J]

I think radar and mirror are out of question. The former turned out to be a liability rather than asset (especially in ETO), so I don't think they were rushing to retrofit the thing to all airframes. The latter was optional item and thus belongs in "wishlist" section rather than "bugs and problems" one.

Gunsight and headrest requests, on the other hand, are valid. They've been brought up numerous times, however, since module release 3 years ago - without devs response, unfortunately, so don't hold your breath.

[Brigg]

yeah im not 100% we should have the radar, the mirror was a pilot preference so to be able to have the option would be nice. headrest absolutely and same for the k-14 controls. i would also like to add the back up iron sight for the mkviii

 

[NineLine]

17 hours ago, SRF_Robert said:

1. The P-47D-30 with gyro sight features a dimmer knob and sight selector on the same unit. The same unit left of the DCS P-51D K-14 gyro sight as well. The DCS P-47D is missing this control unit on the right thigh panel. 

Picture: (4th photo)

Reported and added procedures for K-14 that require the settings on that control unit.

17 hours ago, SRF_Robert said:

2. Tail Warning Radar – same as DCS P-51D (Field mod). The light and bell are located left of the K-14 sight in the P-47D-40 (Only model with evidence). The control unit for the field mod is located behind the IFF destructor box.

Picture on unit in cockpit: (2nd photo)

 

Picture of unit for proof on P-47N manual: (3rd photo)

I will request this as an option, but this one will be iffy at best. I see no proof so far that many had this, and my experience with the P-51 in DCS is its nothing too special anyways.

17 hours ago, SRF_Robert said:

3. Rear View Mirror – in the form of: plexiglass on canopy, truck mirror reused on front canopy, dedicated mirror inside cockpit. Field mod. This was more favorable than the tail radar. Not every P-47 had this, but experienced pilots knew the mirror was important.

-Picture of Variations are included: (1st, 6th, 7th)

This has been requested for some time already.

17 hours ago, SRF_Robert said:

4. Pilot Headrest – this should be factory. Pictures provided.

This has also been requested for some time. 

[Brigg]

Was going to start a new thread but I think Rob's is a better place tbh. It's something that's being bothering me for awhile in I think the D-30 early should have the same weapon release system as the D-30 late and it looks like we have an upto D-27 configuration 

Here is an image of the National Air and Space museums D-30RA which was used as an aerial gunnery trainer from '44

https://imgur.com/a/1iAfQLL

Here is what it says about weapon release in the RL manual for the blocks we have in dcs

https://imgur.com/a/5FqkeGE

https://imgur.com/a/rqRl4Go

https://imgur.com/a/wu5hL0W

https://imgur.com/a/xiz5nIT

So in conclusion we should only have the master arm switches down by the left thigh and no jettison handles. So should be the same in all 3 of our 47s

https://imgur.com/a/Qx4c0sh

Also what about adding a take off throttle stop, not massively needed but it would be nice to have the option

Edited September 27, 2023 by Brigg

[Magic Zach]

The gunsight controls are a must for sure.  A bit surprised they were missed in our 47 too because technically pilots were to turn off the gyro sight motor prior to landing to avoid damaging it.  It was procedural.

From what I found Rob is right with the iteration of gunsight controls for the P-47D-40...that being the same control box as our P-51.  However the K14 gunsight implementation on the D-30 is a bit trickier to uncover.  I need to dig around and see if I can find something, but in any case it doesn't appear the K-14 was a factory floor installation until the D-40.

[Gunfreak]

3 hours ago, Brigg said:

Was going to start a new thread but I think Rob's is a better place tbh. It's something that's being bothering me for awhile in I think the D-30 early should have the same weapon release system as the D-30 late and it looks like we have an upto D-27 configuration 

Here is an image of the National Air and Space museums D-30RA which was used as an aerial gunnery trainer from '44

https://imgur.com/a/1iAfQLL

Here is what it says about weapon release in the RL manual for the blocks we have in dcs

https://imgur.com/a/5FqkeGE

https://imgur.com/a/rqRl4Go

https://imgur.com/a/wu5hL0W

https://imgur.com/a/xiz5nIT

So in conclusion we should only have the master arm switches down by the left thigh and no jettison handles. So should be the same in all 3 of our 47s

https://imgur.com/a/Qx4c0sh

Also what about adding a take off throttle stop, not massively needed but it would be nice to have the option

 

So we have a D-27 cockpit? So all ED needs to do is make a razorback model and we got a proper D-27?

[Brigg]

33 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

So we have a D-27 cockpit? So all ED needs to do is make a razorback model and we got a proper D-27?

No the D-27 has a different front instrument panel and a few other differences in the cockpit. Plus a D-27 is a bubble top not a Razorback 

 

Although I would consider selling body parts for a Razorback

Edited September 27, 2023 by Brigg

[Gunfreak]

25 minutes ago, Brigg said:

No the D-27 has a different front instrument panel and a few other differences in the cockpit. Plus a D-27 is a bubble top not a Razorback 

 

Although I would consider selling body parts for a Razorback

 

 

Ah, I know very little about the all those P47 variations. But I too would sell your body parts for a razorback.

[Art-J]

As been discussed in some old threads when the -47 was released, one shouldn't read too much into block numbers ED gave to their Thunderbolt variants. And with gradual modifications done on wartime production lines plus various retrofits in service, I wouldn't even try to define what THE -30 or THE -40 is supposed to be.

That being said, missing gunsight controls and headrest seem to be a clear cut case. The latter is a nuisance, but the former would definitely come in handy.

[Magic Zach]

I spent a number of hours digging around ACL and this is what I've found.

The 6 twisting-handle panel
This one seems to have been introduced by the D-27 and per its own individual drawing (*which I have a feeling are being wrong, so I'm relying on the overall installation drawings more than the individual parts ones, where they overlap.  I suspect this because sometimes the 47 versions listed on parts don't match up with the installation's specified utilized parts per version)* says it runs up to as far as the P47N-1.  However a look at this pretty broad installation drawing (1) instead suggests it was last used on the P-47D-35 
The 3 twisting-handle panel Source #6
Introduced per itself with the P-47N and up.  However it's listed on the installation drawing(1) in its -4 iteration form since the P-47D-36 and up (or just -40 probably?).  The -4 form of this panel doensn't include the extra nub for the 4th handle above the BELLY inscription.  I haven't found what it was for, but it doesn't appear to be the panel we have in our DCS -40 so it shouldn't matter anyways.
The horizontal arming panel
Included with our DCS 47D-40, this one is listed to have started with the -36, and continues well into the P-47N.  Source #5
The vertical arming panel
Included with our DCS P47D-30 (regular), on the far side of the stick.  The drawings (mini installation (source #2) and parts(source #3)) list this as having been introduced with the P-47D-30 and more or less up from there.  I can't get a solid pin on in with an overall installation drawing because somehow it was missed or excluded from the parts list on the bottom right corner of each drawing.  It's drawn on the installation page (1), but not listed.  So I cannot get a better sourced reference on when this panel was introduced to the P-47.  So, left with just the parts' listing, it says it was added on the P-47D-30.
The red bomb release handle PANEL
The panel for this is not included on the DCS D-30 early, but on the D-30 regular.  This particular part(4) says it was introduced along with the D-28....and up.  So, i don't have a good pin on this one either.  However, this part has a similar case as the vertical arming panel...it's not listed on the overall installation drawing (1).  So an installation reference seems to have escaped me.

I'm still a bit muddy on it tbh, it wasn't quite as clear cut to read as the P-51's drawings are...or it seems that Republic didn't follow its own directions nearly as strictly as North American did.  From what I can tell, our P-47D-30 (regular/late) should have the 6-handled arming panel.  It sounds a bit absurd, because now additionally there would be three ways to drop bombs; via 6-handled panel, via red pull handles in front of the pilot, and electronically with the weapon release trigger.  However, this appears to be how the stars are aligning for a P-47D-30 cockpit.
P-47D-40 appears to be pretty solidly accurate for what I've found.
P-47D-30Early is closer to a P-47D-27 in its arming and drop system layout.  However, turning our P47D-30Early into a P47D-27 includes a potential stumbling block that ED might not be so keen on remaking if they wanted....a new propeller.  The P47D-27 used the Hamilton Standard propeller, as opposed to our current 47s' improved Curtiss propeller.  This would require an FM edit which I'm not sure how ED would feel about doing.  Some other changes I noticed (didn't complete my D-27 investigation) were included but not limited to: different dashboard gauge layout, different fittings for wing drop tanks, no belly tank/bomb sway bolts(?), and extremely likely more that I haven't yet found.  So, without the creation of a D-27, it looks more like the D-30Early should be removed and the D-30 (regular) get the 6-handled bomb arm/release system.
For more info as well, here's the installation for the P-47D-27: https://app.aircorpslibrary.com/drawing/viewer/93f78227/p-47/p47-dwg-l?p=2

(1) https://app.aircorpslibrary.com/drawing/viewer/93f78300/p-47/p47-dwg-e?p=5
(2) https://app.aircorpslibrary.com/drawing/viewer/93f82214/p-47/p47-dwg-l
(3) https://app.aircorpslibrary.com/drawing/viewer/93f82215/p-47/p47-dwg-l
(4) https://app.aircorpslibrary.com/drawing/viewer/93f78301/p-47/p47-dwg-l
(5) https://app.aircorpslibrary.com/drawing/viewer/93f82340/p-47/p47-dwg-e?p=2
(6) https://app.aircorpslibrary.com/drawing/viewer/96f78223/p-47/p47-dwg-e

Edited October 3, 2023 by Magic Zach

[Slippa]

Some great research in this thread, well done.

I think it pretty reasonable to sell Briggs body parts for a razorback too. Though it shouldn’t cost an arm and a leg. Very decent, taking one for the team. 

[Brigg]

4 hours ago, Slippa said:

Some great research in this thread, well done.

I think it pretty reasonable to sell Briggs body parts for a razorback too. Though it shouldn’t cost an arm and a leg. Very decent, taking one for the team. 

I wouldn't get your hopes up that they will make a lot of money as they have had quite a hard and colourful life

Edited October 3, 2023 by Brigg

[Brigg]

Whilst I agree with the majority of what magic is saying I don't believe the 30 Early should be removed, but should have its systems updated to the system in the Pilots operating manual for this block and that is evident in the Air and Space Museums D-30RA. 

Here is a walk around video of her for those that haven't seen it https://www.google.com/search?q=smithsonian+museum+p47+cockpit+&client=ms-android-samsung-ss&sca_esv=570303733&sxsrf=AM9HkKkjupv0KfIBSIcwBZRQOlHgsI_FFQ%3A1696322872904&ei=ONUbZfnpNsW4hbIPou6RkA0&oq=smithsonian+museum+p47+cockpit+&gs_lp=EhNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwIh9zbWl0aHNvbmlhbiBtdXNldW0gcDQ3IGNvY2twaXQgMgcQIRigARgKSJ2AAVDxCFjqenAGeAKQAQCYAYACoAGCEKoBBjAuMTMuMbgBA8gBAPgBAcICBBAAGEfCAgcQABiKBRhDwgINEC4YigUYxwEYrwEYQ8ICCBAAGIoFGJECwgIFEAAYgATCAgUQIRigAcICBBAhGBXiAwQYACBBiAYBkAYI&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp&bshm=rimc/2#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:11889036,vid:Q4AEb5Mu7Zc,st:0

The AAF accepted it on October 27, 1944, and delivered the aircraft to Godman Field, Kentucky. The AAF operated the airplane on the U. S. East Coast primarily as an aerial gunnery trainer. On January 27, 1946, the AAF transferred it from the active inventory to the U. S. Army Air Forces Museum in Dayton, Ohio. So as this never went into active service and then went straight to Dayton is probably as close as it gets when rolling off the assembly line. 

I have emailed the museum asking if they can send me an image of the left thigh arming panel or tell me how many handles it has so hopefully they will reply 

However I do agree with Slippa and this is a great thread with some awesome information in

Edited October 3, 2023 by Brigg

[plott1964]

Great input from all here.

So, the question is... Does ED care enough about the effort put into this thread to update this beloved ($50) aircraft.

[Slippa]

8 hours ago, Brigg said:

I wouldn't get your hopes up that they will make a lot of money as they have had quite a hard and colourful life

 

As a long term member of the silver-sided squadron myself, I feel your pain. I wouldn’t let them take any more than one of your fingernails if it came to the crunch but we do have to offer up some bait to get some attention. 

 

4 hours ago, plott1964 said:

Does ED care enough about the effort put into this thread to update this beloved ($50) aircraft.

Ah, the proverbial fortnight debate. We’ll see if there’s an update. 

We live in hope. - In all seriousness I’m really happy with the jugs we have. There are variables. Maybe this is a good reason for work on a razorback, (including the fresh prop) to start proper. To distract us from other quibbles if nothin else? 

[NineLine]

As stated this is partially reported, I left it open to see if any more info would come along, but instead, people are using it to wish for other things and air beefs. So for now, this is closed.

Sorry.