reported Spotting dot bugs in VR

[MAXsenna]

Just now, some1 said:

Still awful. ED stubbornness in forcing this broken implementation on everybody is mind boggling. 

But let's repeat one more time. The dots in VR are at least twice the size of the dots on a 4k monitor. Which makes them more than twice as noticeable, because their area is 3-4 times bigger.

4k monitor, HUD lines are 4 pixels wide, dot is 2 pixels.

VR, HUD lines are 4 pixels wide, dot is 4 pixels.

In both cases the target is 30 km away. 

Would even be more noticeable if you posted full res pictures. Those are too tiny on a cellphone.

[BIGNEWY]

18 minutes ago, some1 said:

Still awful. ED stubbornness in forcing this broken implementation on everybody is mind boggling. 

But let's repeat one more time. The dots in VR are at least twice the size of the dots on a 4k monitor. Which makes them more than twice as noticeable, because their area is 3-4 times bigger.

4k monitor, HUD lines are 4 pixels wide, dot is 2 pixels.

VR, HUD lines are 4 pixels wide, dot is 4 pixels.

In both cases the target is 30 km away. 

Since projected HUD image has fixed angular dimensions, it's a good way to measure apparent size of the objects regardless of resolution and display mode.

 

Please note 

• Spotting dots size in VR adjusted to be smaller in certain cases based on feedback. We are still working on different preset logic for VR. (Please be advised that setting “Improved spotting dots” does not affect presence of spotting dots in VR, please read the setting tooltip).
  
   some will have 2 pixels, but we have more preset logic tweaks coming for VR.  
  
  Some headsets were seeing bigger blocks and that should have improved, so keep the feedback coming. 

[Melt-Down]

16 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Please note 

• Spotting dots size in VR adjusted to be smaller in certain cases based on feedback. We are still working on different preset logic for VR. (Please be advised that setting “Improved spotting dots” does not affect presence of spotting dots in VR, please read the setting tooltip).
  
   some will have 2 pixels, but we have more preset logic tweaks coming for VR.  
  
  Some headsets were seeing bigger blocks and that should have improved, so keep the feedback coming. 

This stubbornness i getting stupid. Work on them as much as you want, get feedback from people who actually want to use them. Let us be able to TURN THEM OFF!!!

[MoleUK]

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

Please note 

• Spotting dots size in VR adjusted to be smaller in certain cases based on feedback. We are still working on different preset logic for VR. (Please be advised that setting “Improved spotting dots” does not affect presence of spotting dots in VR, please read the setting tooltip).
  
   some will have 2 pixels, but we have more preset logic tweaks coming for VR.  
  
  Some headsets were seeing bigger blocks and that should have improved, so keep the feedback coming. 

Any idea if there is progress on the disappearing dots problem? (where in some missions they seem to disappear at certain angles maybe related to the number of ground units)

I can try getting some tracks together to replicate it in SP if not.

[BIGNEWY]

9 minutes ago, MoleUK said:

Any idea if there is progress on the disappearing dots problem? (where in some missions they seem to disappear at certain angles maybe related to the number of ground units)

I can try getting some tracks together to replicate it in SP if not.

best post an example in a different thread if you can reproduce it. 

thanks

[Why485]

1 hour ago, some1 said:

Still awful. ED stubbornness in forcing this broken implementation on everybody is mind boggling. 

But let's repeat one more time. The dots in VR are at least twice the size of the dots on a 4k monitor. Which makes them more than twice as noticeable, because their area is 3-4 times bigger.

4k monitor, HUD lines are 4 pixels wide, dot is 2 pixels.

VR, HUD lines are 4 pixels wide, dot is 4 pixels.

In both cases the target is 30 km away. 

Since projected HUD image has fixed angular dimensions, it's a good way to measure apparent size of the objects regardless of resolution and display mode.

 

A bug in the game for over a year now is that dots in front of clouds are rendered no matter how far away they are. They can be 50 miles away and they will still render as very dark objects.

ED has not acknowledged this as a bug or a feature.

 

 

[YoYo]

3 hours ago, Melt-Down said:

Why?? Why is it so hard, to give the choice to every player to decide if they want to used them or not??

I don't care if others want to used them, I DON'T want to used them, it's basically turning DCS into War Thunder. 

War Thunder was in the previous patch (I haven't had a chance to check today's yet). It's not that easy to give a slider. People also fly online and imagine that someone has the slider set to the maximum dot, and someone, with the same VR set, has it set to the minimum. The chances are then unequal.

There was a survey about VR hardware and resolution recently. Currently, it is moving towards fixed settings but depending on the googles (brand) and their resolution, which can be a pretty good solution if you can finally reach a compromise.

Once I check today's Patch I'll let you know how it is.

[nachomaga]

2 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

• Some headsets were seeing bigger blocks and that should have improved, so keep the feedback coming. 

My feedback: Yes, dots are smaller with today's update but still very big for my taste and headset (Reverb G2, PD: 1.2). As others said, I would prefer a separate setting to turn it off.

I remember it happens too when F-15E was out, last year if I remember correctly. At the end ED return to no dots at all with labels off, I prefer that way. Oh, thanks for listening.

Edited October 30, 2024 by nachomaga

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

9 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

please try and let us know what you think

My initial impressions of the change in today's patch are *very* positive! I'm using a Varjo Aero at 35PPD, and the improvement is massive! No longer do I see huge black squares in the sky at ridiculous distances. I'll keep an eye on it during the next few days as well  

But for now I am a very happy bunny!

[some1]

16 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Would even be more noticeable if you posted full res pictures. Those are too tiny on a cellphone.

These are the full resolution, pixel-for-pixel as seen on a monitor. I just cropped to the part that is the subject of the discussion, no point in posting the whole 4k cockpit image, it will only make comparison harder.

If you have trouble seeing them on a phone, you can always pinch to zoom.

 

16 hours ago, some1 said:

4k monitor, HUD lines are 4 pixels wide, dot is 2 pixels.

VR, HUD lines are 4 pixels wide, dot is 4 pixels.

And one more for comparison. Same situation, same zoom level, 4k monitor, this time Improved spotting dots - OFF. Target at 30 km is a single pixel.

So a guy on a monitor may see this, while a guy in VR using the same settings gets a blob that is ~16 times bigger and can't be turned off.

 

16 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

We are still working on different preset logic for VR. (Please be advised that setting “Improved spotting dots” does not affect presence of spotting dots in VR, please read the setting tooltip).

We are paying customers, not beta testers. This is not DCS "Open Beta" any more, this is "Unified Release". If you want to gather feedback about a new feature that is clearly unfinished and you have obvious trouble tweaking it since 2023, make it opt-in or opt-out. 

[MAXsenna]

@some1 All good. For some reason the were tiny on the computer. It was better in the phone. Who knows...

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[falcon_120]

I like how the dots are now for my Meta quest 3. I can see them if i'm paying attention but not so noticeably. It's been an improvement.

If i were to tune them in another iteration i think they can still be decreased a bit more like 20% smaller to be perfect (i know im probably saying something stupid as reductions are in pixels so we might go from 4 pixels to 3 or 2 in one step? no such thing as 20%).

I'm also in favor of giving players a choice not to have this if they feel it breaks their immersion, so definitely a working on/off option should be activated.

[BIGNEWY]

15 minutes ago, falcon_120 said:

I like how the dots are now for my Meta quest 3. I can see them if i'm paying attention but not so noticeably. It's been an improvement.

If i were to tune them in another iteration i think they can still be decreased a bit more like 20% smaller to be perfect (i know im probably saying something stupid as reductions are in pixels so we might go from 4 pixels to 3 or 2 in one step? no such thing as 20%).

I'm also in favor of giving players a choice not to have this if they feel it breaks their immersion, so definitely a working on/off option should be activated.

Good to hear you are seeing improvement with the meta quest 3, that was the intention of this initial adjust. Some headsets values were way off. 

[some1]

19 minutes ago, falcon_120 said:

(i know im probably saying something stupid as reductions are in pixels so we might go from 4 pixels to 3 or 2 in one step? no such thing as 20%).

It's not stupid, the dots are not really solid rectangles 3x3, but rather a bunch of pixels of different shades, that can be made more or less transparent. So you can get relatively smooth transition between different sizes.

I'm counting the pixels in the previous posts, because they're comparable here in this particular example, but it's really about apparent size of the object in angular terms. So far in VR it's still about two times off the intended target (if the intended target is how it currently looks on a monitor). 

[AhSoul]

Quest 3 here and things are way better. Back to being quite a challenge to spot bogeys again. No idea if it's 'realistic' as I'm not a fighter pilot in real life, but it's definitely an improvement.

[YoYo]

I tested it and I can say that it is better, the direction is good. The dot in VR is definitely a bit smaller and looks better.

But opposite side:

- the distance is still too big, the opponent (fighter vs fighter) can be seen from 27 nm in cloudless weather (it's a bit better with clouds and the distance is shorter, generally, a fighter like the MiG-29 should appear in cloudless weather against the sky only at a maximum of 12 nm, otherwise we wouldn't really need a radar),

- at the maximum distance the dot should be barely visible, grey/transparent (12 nm) and the closer it gets it should get darker (from 8 nm for example), I think something like that is implemented but as the sentence above, it is too big a distance, I also think it would be nice if the dot grew larger from very small to larger the closer we get,

- dot in VR is still too big (Meta Quest), it's smaller than last time but I would reduce it by half or 1/3 and then it would be perfect.

- remove dots on ground units, or at least reduce them. Sometimes from a distance you can see one tank like a building (although it's much better now than it was recently, so just a little tweak here).

Edited October 31, 2024 by YoYo

[nachomaga]

55 minutes ago, YoYo said:

- remove dots on ground units, or at least reduce them. Sometimes from a distance you can see one tank like a building (although it's much better now than it was recently, so just a little tweak here).

Totally agree with that...

[AhSoul]

1 hour ago, YoYo said:

I tested it and I can say that it is better, the direction is good. The dot in VR is definitely a bit smaller and looks better.

But opposite side:

- the distance is still too big, the opponent (fighter vs fighter) can be seen from 27 nm in cloudless weather (it's a bit better with clouds and the distance is shorter, generally, a fighter like the MiG-29 should appear in cloudless weather against the sky only at a maximum of 12 nm, otherwise we wouldn't really need a radar),

- at the maximum distance the dot should be barely visible, grey/transparent (12 nm) and the closer it gets it should get darker (from 8 nm for example), I think something like that is implemented but as the sentence above, it is too big a distance, I also think it would be nice if the dot grew larger from very small to larger the closer we get,

- dot in VR is still too big (Meta Quest), it's smaller than last time but I would reduce it by half or 1/3 and then it would be perfect.

- remove dots on ground units, or at least reduce them. Sometimes from a distance you can see one tank like a building (although it's much better now than it was recently, so just a little tweak here).

 

which quest are you on? I don't think the current dot is too big - I was struggling to see the dot for an M-2000C at what felt like way closer range than 27nm last night. I need to do some more imperical testing though - this was when dogfighting.

I'm on a Q3 at 1.1 res. If you're on something with fewer and bigger pixels you're going to think the dot is too big, but making it smaller (and therefore correct for you) would make it too small for me (or someone else). Ahhh the joys of differing hardware

Edited October 31, 2024 by AhSoul

[BIGNEWY]

please ensure you don't have labels on also when testing the spotting dots, some people are confusing the label dots with improved spotting dots. 

[Zakson85]

I wrote it in another thread but it should be here.

DCS 2.9.9.2280

the size of the dots in vr on the quest3 set is now much better balanced than before. Unfortunately, they still disappear when there are more than 100 objects/units. Again, the disappearance starts with airplane dots. Positive change, thank you. Now please deal with this disappearance of contacts, it will make me give you my wallet again

[BIGNEWY]

8 minutes ago, Zakson85 said:

I wrote it in another thread but it should be here.

DCS 2.9.9.2280

the size of the dots in vr on the quest3 set is now much better balanced than before. Unfortunately, they still disappear when there are more than 100 objects/units. Again, the disappearance starts with airplane dots. Positive change, thank you. Now please deal with this disappearance of contacts, it will make me give you my wallet again

thank you for confirming, that is what we are seeing now on the Quest 3 dots are improved. 

 

[Bounti30]

My Feedback

it's always awful.
No more, no less
Back to 2.9.5.55918 again.

[nachomaga]

5 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

please ensure you don't have labels on also when testing the spotting dots, some people are confusing the label dots with improved spotting dots. 

I always check and re-check that, because it’s true label dots are similar at some distance.

But no, labels off all the time.

[YoYo]

5 hours ago, AhSoul said:

which quest are you on? I don't think the current dot is too big - I was struggling to see the dot for an M-2000C at what felt like way closer range than 27nm last night. I need to do some more imperical testing though - this was when dogfighting.

I'm on a Q3 at 1.1 res. If you're on something with fewer and bigger pixels you're going to think the dot is too big, but making it smaller (and therefore correct for you) would make it too small for me (or someone else). Ahhh the joys of differing hardware

 

Resolution (upscaling) 3120x3150 pxt, Quest Pro. My image is very sharp, so it is generally equivalent to high resolutions, dot is better but still too big as many as have said here after testing this patch.

[Robi Hobby]

Just tested.

Instant Action -> F-16 -> Caucasus -> Free Flight.  (4 F-16 in Ground Attack)
The Spotting Dots in VR haven't gotten any better. They're Huge!  
Why can't you turn it off? ED, aren't you listening? What's wrong with YOU? Why do you want to destroy DCS World!  Sorry, I'm not putting up with this drama anymore.
I'm taking another break until the Next update!
I want the OPTION to turn it ON and OFF! 

Quest 3 / RTX3090 /12700K  64GB