F-4E wear and tear.

[JesseJames38]

After watching your wonderful F-4 video earlier today, i am wondering a few things about your wear and tear statements.  How will the game keep track of this, will this be tracked in multiplayer servers?  Or when multi crewing the aircraft.  Dose this function take the wear and tear of the aircraft based on the flight hours flown in the aircraft from the Pilot.  or the RIO,   Or is it spit between the two people based on what position they are in the aircraft and what can be used by each person?  Or perhaps this wear and tear is a product of how often the aircraft was used in that multiplayer aircraft slot?

If this can be tracked in multiplayer then its truly game changing to me as that is where i spent 98% of my time in DCS.  If its only done in the single player side, then this wouldn't be of much interest to me, but a huge step forward regardless to the game. And others who fly single player often.

Also, as i find this feature a great addition to the game, is there ways for the people to figure out if there "issue" they are having in the aircraft is a bug, vs it being a issue with the wear and tear of the aircraft in use.  Also, is there a function in order to repair these issues if needed? As the ware and tare goes from one aircraft to another

 

Thanks

Jesse.

 

Edited for spelling

Edited October 30, 2023 by JesseJames38

[Dragon1-1]

It's wear and tear. Ware and tare mean... something else entirely. To my knowledge, they're not selling Phantoms at a grocery store...

I think it'll be possible to set the wear level somehow. It's not something that happens over a flight or two IRL, but it accumulates over the years. So it'll probably be done in ME.

[Zabuzard]

The system has multiple components and aspects to it. We will explain it in detail at a later point.

A few points that I can mention today:

• all properties of the aircraft and each single component will slowly degrade while you fly, based on how you fly and a few other factors - how this will affect your experience mostly depends on the mission designer. dont just think about "engine max speed" here, also think about stuff like how well any of the many lamps in your pit can react to voltage changes. or how well positioned the lense in your targeting pod camera is. the system affects a lot.
• the "persistence" aspect does not accumulate in the way you describe it, but is rather an option for mission/campaign designers to allow for multi-mission scenarios in which you would fly a single aircraft without being able to repair it, especially dynamic campaigns.
• it also captures and simulates aspects such as factory quality and variance. not every motor produced in a factory does have the exact same properties and performs identical, they are rather produced within a certain acceptable range. as an example, some of the WW2 birds produced in the last years of the war have been produced with rather bad quality in comparison

Edited October 30, 2023 by Zabuzard

[Hiob]

Can the wear and tear system be disabled (in the special options e.g.)?

[kotor633]

vor 50 Minuten schrieb Zabuzard:

The system has multiple components and aspects to it. We will explain it in detail at a later point.

A few points that I can mention today:

• all properties of the aircraft and each single component will slowly degrade while you fly, based on how you fly and a few other factors - how this will affect your experience mostly depends on the mission designer. dont just think about "engine max speed" here, also think about stuff like how well any of the many lamps in your pit can react to voltage changes. or how well positioned the lense in your targeting pod camera is. the system affects a lot.
• the "persistence" aspect does not accumulate in the way you describe it, but is rather an option for mission/campaign designers to allow for multi-mission scenarios in which you would fly a single aircraft without being able to repair it, especially dynamic campaigns.
• it also captures and simulates aspects such as factory quality and variance. not every motor produced in a factory does have the exact same properties and performs identical, they are rather produced within a certain acceptable range. as an example, some of the WW2 birds produced in the last years of the war have been produced with rather bad quality in comparison

 

Are you serious?? You're crazy...in a 110% positive sense. A huge step towards more realism. 

[Zabuzard]

45 minutes ago, Hiob said:

Can the wear and tear system be disabled (in the special options e.g.)?

The system is configurable. For the details and similar questions in that direction, I would forward to the mentioned future deep-dive on the system for now

[Hiob]

1 hour ago, Zabuzard said:

The system is configurable. For the details and similar questions in that direction, I would forward to the mentioned future deep-dive on the system for now

Roger! Thanks.

[Tom Kazansky]

2 hours ago, Zabuzard said:

The system has multiple components and aspects to it. We will explain it in detail at a later point.

A few points that I can mention today:

• all properties of the aircraft and each single component will slowly degrade while you fly, based on how you fly and a few other factors - how this will affect your experience mostly depends on the mission designer. dont just think about "engine max speed" here, also think about stuff like how well any of the many lamps in your pit can react to voltage changes. or how well positioned the lense in your targeting pod camera is. the system affects a lot.
• the "persistence" aspect does not accumulate in the way you describe it, but is rather an option for mission/campaign designers to allow for multi-mission scenarios in which you would fly a single aircraft without being able to repair it, especially dynamic campaigns.
• it also captures and simulates aspects such as factory quality and variance. not every motor produced in a factory does have the exact same properties and performs identical, they are rather produced within a certain acceptable range. as an example, some of the WW2 birds produced in the last years of the war have been produced with rather bad quality in comparison

 

that sounds great and a bit scary at the same time.

After the mission, will there be a technical debriefing, so we can see the system's condition? I mean, we all need to know whether stange things with the aircraft are caused intentionally by this new wear and tear system or by software-related bugs (i.e DCS's or Heatblur's).

[Hiob]

I assume the rather vague "in winter 23/24" is due to excessive testing and bug-squishing efforts that happen right now. Fingers crossed for them (and us)!

[Omega417]

4 hours ago, Zabuzard said:

....... dynamic campaigns.

• it also captures and simulates aspects such as factory quality and variance. not every motor produced in a factory does have the exact same properties and performs identical, they are rather produced within a certain acceptable range. as an example, some of the WW2 birds produced in the last years of the war have been produced with rather bad quality in comparison

 

This will make some of the campaign servers much more engaging after the first 3-4 weeks of a campaign.

 

Will any of these quality/variance simulations be applied to the weapons? There have been a lot of discussions in these forums about the Vietnam AIM-7 and its rough handling leading to lackluster performance. Would make things a lot more exciting if your AGM-12 blew up 20 ft in front of the plane because the motor exploded.

[AKarhu]

Indeed, this system should be brilliant if we some day get the dynamic campaign. Overspeeding or over-g'ing the aircraft would have proper consequences in readiness rates, as the aircraft would have to be inspected in the best case and pulled out from the line for repairs in worse. And on the other hand, sustained high tempo air operations with limited downtime for maintenance could be modeled to result in lowering readiness rates, reduced reliability, and with aircraft having to be operated with faults open. Oh, just brilliant.

[Kalasnkova74]

44 minutes ago, AKarhu said:

Indeed, this system should be brilliant if we some day get the dynamic campaign. Overspeeding or over-g'ing the aircraft would have proper consequences in readiness rates, as the aircraft would have to be inspected in the best case and pulled out from the line for repairs in worse. And on the other hand, sustained high tempo air operations with limited downtime for maintenance could be modeled to result in lowering readiness rates, reduced reliability, and with aircraft having to be operated with faults open. Oh, just brilliant.

I’m reminded of a story from Shlomo Aloni’s “Ghosts of Atonement”. During the October 1973 war, a Kurnass (#164 if memory serves) was tested with the A-4Ns more advanced bomb computer. During the program war broke out and the modified jet was pressed into emergency squadron service. During sorties 164 did weird stuff like releasing one single bomb on the centerline MER. 

Properly done- and with educated participants- one could engineer a delightful campaign tying player actions on logistics to tangible consequences for their Air Force.

[AKarhu]

34 minutes ago, Kalasnkova74 said:

I’m reminded of a story from Shlomo Aloni’s “Ghosts of Atonement”. During the October 1973 war, a Kurnass (#164 if memory serves) was tested with the A-4Ns more advanced bomb computer. During the program war broke out and the modified jet was pressed into emergency squadron service. During sorties 164 did weird stuff like releasing one single bomb on the centerline MER. 

Properly done- and with educated participants- one could engineer a delightful campaign tying player actions on logistics to tangible consequences for their Air Force.

It has always been interesting to me that just about always when you read just about any comprehensive writings of significant flight operations, based on first hand sources in real shooting war, almost never one finds one without technical issues playing some sort of role. If not in eventual outcome, at least in how things ended up happening. The lack of this randomness of dynamic nature, precisely what Heatblur is apparently after, makes the simulated world all too clinical even if having a dynamic campaign with proper logistics. For a war not only consumes the supplies the logistics are providing, but also the providers and those who are provided with them as well.

Edited October 30, 2023 by AKarhu

[Dragon1-1]

7 hours ago, Zabuzard said:

The system is configurable. For the details and similar questions in that direction, I would forward to the mentioned future deep-dive on the system for now

Looking forward to it. Is anything similar planned for the F-14? So that we could properly experience the shift from a factory new bird of the 80s to the 2000s birds held together by baling aviation safety wire.  

[Super Grover]

As previously mentioned, a separate development report is required to fully cover the system of wear, damage, and failures. However, I would like to address some points to clarify potential misunderstandings.

 

Firstly, when we began the F-4E project, we decided to establish a stable foundation that could be shared across all Heatblur modules. As a result, we plan to transfer new features to older products, starting with the F-14. However, this process may take some time.

 

Secondly, we aimed to create a flexible and extensible system that could be developed and maintained for several years. We even considered future potential base simulation platform development scenarios and ensured that we could utilize their full potential in our product. This means that there are some features that cannot be implemented in DCS currently but may become available later, even beyond the early access period.

 

One of the key features is the ability to save and restore the state of each component and the entire aircraft at any point. Yes, this means that persistent airframes in various forms are technically possible. However, we need to better understand how to blend it with gameplay features for the best user experience before we can promise anything.

 

Our aim with these systems was to create realistic, immersive, and entertaining experiences for all users, whether they are casual or hardcore. We considered all use cases, including those in the competitive scene, and welcome feedback to ensure our products are enjoyable for everyone. Each feature comes with various settings to allow you to adjust them to your liking.

 

Now, let's move on to the technical details, which I have listed to make it easier to follow.

1. We use general terms like 'wear', 'condition', 'property' and 'failure' to abstract information about the aircraft. Still, their precise meaning is interpreted at the level of each component individually. As mentioned in the trailer, the F-4E is a collection of thousands of components.
2. Each component is unique and has its own set of properties. Two components at the same level of wear will be slightly different. Some examples of how those properties can manifest in the aircraft: two tachometer gauges may have different accuracy; two pumps may have somewhat different effectiveness; pressure at which a check valve opens and closes will be different from valve to valve; etc.
3. Each component accumulates wear independently. The rate at which it wears out may depend on various factors, such as extreme forces or temperatures.
4. Each component has an assigned condition/quality. This value represents the combined quality of manufacturing, materials used, and maintenance.
5. Component properties are affected by wear and condition.
6. Wear and condition can be assigned per airframe by the mission creator.
7. Components may fail, and each component may fail in multiple spectacular ways. 
8. Failures are an additional layer to the wear layer. Wear and other factors, such as damage from weapons, extreme forces or temperatures, may impact the moment when a failure occurs.
9. Failures can be gradual; for example, a seizing-up motor or actuator may, at first, require higher forces to move and eventually stop altogether.
10. Failures are NOT rolling a dice every second. However, we take into account all available sources describing what is the rated lifetime and approved failure rates.
11. The total number of already defined possible points of failure in the F-4E is counted in thousands.
12. Last but not least, if, for any reason, you want to deactivate all of the above, you can select 'reference aircraft' in the mission editor. Your F-4E will have all properties standardized, factory-fresh and in perfect condition.

 

In summary, we wanted to make the F-4E feel organic and unique each time you fly it, and we hope you'll enjoy all the new features.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Super Grover

[Biggus]

I can see this adding enormously to the flavour of dynamic campaigns.  Kudos, guys.

[=475FG= Dawger]

Wives, girlfriends and significant others will love this feature.

” I thought you were spending the evening flying DCS”

” Jet’s broke.”

The finest in realism. 

[Raisuli]

Of course in your 'wear' models you also have to model 'maintenance', particularly if you're going to keep persistent air frames.  Then there's the whole rabbit hole of maintenance quality, replacement part availability and the QA associated with that entire ecosystem.

If you do it right you've just modeled real-world component failure on everything from aviation to space flight to nuclear power plants, and Heatblur's primary revenue sources will have nothing to do with games.

As long as there is an off switch for those of us who would rather play a game... 

[_BringTheReign_]

This is outstanding. I believe this solves a key issue combat flight sims have always had: comparison. In a sim, everything works perfectly, so you are always comparing two aircraft at their best, with the pilot being the only variable. Now for the first time you can fly a jet as it actually may have been - sticky, some stuff works well, others not as well. We are no longer flying a sheet of paper with specs on it, but rather a living breathing jet that reacts. That's excellent. 

Now we just need the redfor aircraft to match!

Finally, this makes me very excited for the future F-4 modules - the J and S - as you know, the AWG-10 radar and the head mounted display were not always 100% up. This new system means that if the mission editor decides they want to be closer to reality, they can select jets with all the issues the real ones faced. But if they want the mission to be a what-if scenario, they have this option too. 

 

Overall, I think this adds a whole bunch of flexibility to the user and means we can genuinely compare a factory fresh aircraft to a jet that's been on the line fighting, and the value in that is insurmountable! 

[VZ_342]

I can imagine on start-up the radar goes out... pilot sends out a call for "redball" and maintenance comes tearing out to you, several techs jump out and start their maintenance stuff, panels open, ladders show up, and after 5-15 minutes the radar starts working again!

 

And all the while the hostile aircraft are getting closer and closer....

[badger7966]

On 10/30/2023 at 1:49 AM, Dragon1-1 said:

It's wear and tear. Ware and tare mean... something else entirely. To my knowledge, they're not selling Phantoms at a grocery store...

I think it'll be possible to set the wear level somehow. It's not something that happens over a flight or two IRL, but it accumulates over the years. So it'll probably be done in ME.

Oh yes it does depending on the component...mant parts are changed on once a number of rotations are reached or on hours flown.....inspections are normally done on a daily basis...and for example every 100...300....600 hour inspections...and then once the max has been reached a total strip down.I know...Ive been doing it 38 years.

[Dragon1-1]

47 minutes ago, badger7966 said:

Oh yes it does depending on the component...

Is there anything so fragile that it'll actually degrade noticeably after one or two (max. 1-2h on our maps, I imagine, and that's if you have a tanker on hand) sorties, though? 100h is actually a lot of flying for a combat jet, at least at standard sortie rates. Not sure how it was for the Phantom, but I remember an article detailing a day in life of a fighter pilot, they basically took a full day to fly one strike exercise, with about one hour in the air and the rest on the ground, planning, debriefing and so on.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Dragon1-1

[zarusoba10]

I wonder if the Phantom's wear and tear system will see the light of things that have traditionally been left out of the DCS checklist, such as using lamp check switches and monitoring instruments during startup.

If the aircraft continues to wear out, there may be a malfunction such as a warning light bulb going out.

[Dragon1-1]

Monitoring instruments is something you should definitely do, since with systems wearing out, there'll be a chance for something to go wrong during engine start. If hot starts are ever implemented, it'll be much more important.

As for lamp test, well, I like to do it anyway, if only to see the pretty lights light up.  

[LF_Luftmanu]

I am really, really happy to see that engine runs, preflight checks now have a real meaning. 

THanks a lot HB!