Is The Air To Ground Workflow In The Real F16C Blk50 Really This Clunky......

[av8orDave]

46 minutes ago, jeventy26 said:

OK, well how about this.  What would be the best workflow for CAS without waypoints?  Can someone provide an example?  More than one target... lets say 5 miles apart.

As in literally using no waypoint? Ok, here goes:

1) Select JDAM as weapon in VIS mode

2) DMS up to select HUD as sensor of interest

3) Hold TMS up to get the aiming cross on the JHMCS display

4) Look at the desired target with the cross and hit TMS up short; you can then slew the TD box around with the HOTAS controls

5) TMS down will undesignate

6) repeat on your other target

Having said all of the above, getting a JTAC 9-line, entering it as a waypoint, and going from there is definitely the better method.

 

[MAXsenna]

Ok, I laughed out loud at myself upon reading this.   
 
 
Thanks

Ahhh... That's why I can never remember it! Haha
Thanks @Yurgon

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[jeventy26]

19 minutes ago, davidrbarnette said:

As in literally using no waypoint? Ok, here goes:

1) Select JDAM as weapon in VIS mode

2) DMS up to select HUD as sensor of interest

3) Hold TMS up to get the aiming cross on the JHMCS display

4) Look at the desired target with the cross and hit TMS up short; you can then slew the TD box around with the HOTAS controls

5) TMS down will undesignate

6) repeat on your other target

Having said all of the above, getting a JTAC 9-line, entering it as a waypoint, and going from there is definitely the better method.

 

TY!  This is what I was afraid of though.  Engaging one target and trying to quickly engage another following 6 steps can be a hell of a workload. Forget that my other weapon isn't a JDAM and its Rockets or something... I am going to panic lol.    Hornet or A-10 it is MUCH quicker.  I guess if that's how it is I better get to practicing!

[Dragon1-1]

1 hour ago, jeventy26 said:

OK, well how about this.  What would be the best workflow for CAS without waypoints?  Can someone provide an example?  More than one target... lets say 5 miles apart.

Drop a HUD markpoint near each target. See the workflow for CAS with waypoints for what comes next.

Either that or forget the fancy kit entirely. For instance, note that in the "Home on the range" mission you're armed with rockets and dumb bombs. You don't need the TGP. What you are supposed to do is work with JTAC to engage the targets visually. This, in fact, would be the preferred method IRL, if carrying such a loadout. Level bombing is not accurate enough for CAS even with modern technology. JTAC will mark the spot on the ground with smoke, then give you a reference as to where the target is, relative to the smoke. Your job is to spot it and then put the requested ordnance on it.

That's just how the Viper is designed. For the air to ground systems to act in a sensible way, you need a steerpoint on the ground. The only exceptions are visual modes such as CCIP or VIS. In these, you acquire the target with your trusty Mk1 Mod 0 Eyeball and fly the aircraft to put the impact point on it. 

[DD_fruitbat]

48 minutes ago, jeventy26 said:

TY!  This is what I was afraid of though.  Engaging one target and trying to quickly engage another following 6 steps can be a hell of a workload. Forget that my other weapon isn't a JDAM and its Rockets or something... I am going to panic lol.    Hornet or A-10 it is MUCH quicker.  I guess if that's how it is I better get to practicing!

Using the example you quoted from @davidrbarnette, no way is it quicker to drop a jdam with the Hornet. The Hornets workflow is truly horrible, everything that takes one press in the Viper takes at least 3 in the Hornet.

5 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

That's just how the Viper is designed. For the air to ground systems to act in a sensible way, you need a steerpoint on the ground. The only exceptions are visual modes such as CCIP or VIS. In these, you acquire the target with your trusty Mk1 Mod 0 Eyeball and fly the aircraft to put the impact point on it. 

This is not true, any weapon that lets you use CCIP, DTOS or VIS mode (I'm struggling to think of any weapon that you can't use in one of those 3 modes ) does not need a steerpoint anywhere near the target.

Edited November 17, 2023 by DD_fruitbat

[Dragon1-1]

32 minutes ago, DD_fruitbat said:

This is not true, any weapon that lets you use CCIP, DTOS or VIS mode (I'm struggling to think of any weapon that you can't use in one of those 3 modes ) does not need a steerpoint anywhere near the target.

Which is exactly what I said. Just read a little further than the first words of the sentence. Of course visual modes do not require steerpoints.

Most weapons can engage visually. However, many situations preclude a visual engagement, such low vis or high threat situations. Notably, LGBs can technically be dropped in CCIP, but you'd better have someone else to lase them, unless you go for a ballistic drop.

[Fuggzy]

One thing that really helps everything come in to focus is getting MFD pages, in all modes, setup the same way on every start up.  I switch to each mode, say for example A/G, and load all three pages on both MFD's that I will use.  So for A/G mode, Left MFD pages on the bottom I set as TGP - FCR - HAD, Right MFD is SMS - WPN - HSD.   Then get good with DMS switch Right and Left to cycle through pages on each MFD, and there's just a lot less mousing and loading of pages in the heat of it.  I do the same for every mode, MSL, DGFT, NAV.  I like to set the A/A modes with TGP as the second page on Left, just a quick DMS-left and TGP is looking right at whatever I've got locked on the FCR, for example.  All of this is done before I taxi.

I know that doesn't exactly address A/G mode workflow to put bombs on target, but having the MFD's fully prepared for the A/G workflow, and switching between them with a quick DMS L/R, makes it feel a lot simpler. To me, anyways.  

[Buzz313th]

1 hour ago, Fuggzy said:

One thing that really helps everything come in to focus is getting MFD pages, in all modes, setup the same way on every start up.  I switch to each mode, say for example A/G, and load all three pages on both MFD's that I will use.  So for A/G mode, Left MFD pages on the bottom I set as TGP - FCR - HAD, Right MFD is SMS - WPN - HSD.   Then get good with DMS switch Right and Left to cycle through pages on each MFD, and there's just a lot less mousing and loading of pages in the heat of it.  I do the same for every mode, MSL, DGFT, NAV.  I like to set the A/A modes with TGP as the second page on Left, just a quick DMS-left and TGP is looking right at whatever I've got locked on the FCR, for example.  All of this is done before I taxi.

I know that doesn't exactly address A/G mode workflow to put bombs on target, but having the MFD's fully prepared for the A/G workflow, and switching between them with a quick DMS L/R, makes it feel a lot simpler. To me, anyways.  

Great advice.  I will use it as soon as I find the best workflow for me for each submode.  I'm almost done with all the knowledge items, next step is to start putting them in to practice and see what works well.  I have a dozen or so single missions to do, which should mix things up, then post mission I'll review items that felt a bit fuzzy.  Then a campaign.  

[Hobel]

Hm, I would say the same about the f18. I think the f16 has a much better workflow.

Especially the fact that you can switch very quickly between a/a and a/g.  That's not so easy with the f18

And the automatic MFD page memory function in the f16 is also nice.

[jeventy26]

17 hours ago, Hobel said:

Hm, I would say the same about the f18. I think the f16 has a much better workflow.

Especially the fact that you can switch very quickly between a/a and a/g.  That's not so easy with the f18

And the automatic MFD page memory function in the f16 is also nice.

I mean I am starting to figure it out... but CAS... I don't think its close to the Hornet.  Again, in a no waypoint scenario (this is important), if we had 4 targets separated by a couple of miles and we had JDAMS...  and lets say we both had a good idea where the enemy is.  I would put money I could engage and destroy them in the Hornet way before you could in the Viper.  (Same with the A-10 but that's for CAS so it doesn't count).  Also, I don't understand what you mean by the AG to AA comment.  Its one button in the 18.  

Edited November 18, 2023 by jeventy26

[Hobel]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb jeventy26:

I mean I am starting to figure it out... but CAS... I don't think its close to the Hornet.  Again, in a no waypoint scenario (this is important), if we had 4 targets separated by a couple of miles and we had JDAMS...  and lets say we both had a good idea where the enemy is.  I would put money I could engage and destroy them in the Hornet way before you could in the Viper.  (Same with the A-10 but that's for CAS so it doesn't count).  Also, I don't understand what you mean by the AG to AA comment.  Its one button in the 18.  

 

Yes, one button that resets all mfd pages every time.   I also find it more practical to set mark points with the Viper with the f16 it is tms up and in the f18 an osb button and then you also have to redesignate the targets every time

[DD_fruitbat]

2 hours ago, jeventy26 said:

I mean I am starting to figure it out... but CAS... I don't think its close to the Hornet.  Again, in a no waypoint scenario (this is important), if we had 4 targets separated by a couple of miles and we had JDAMS...  and lets say we both had a good idea where the enemy is.  I would put money I could engage and destroy them in the Hornet way before you could in the Viper.  (Same with the A-10 but that's for CAS so it doesn't count).  Also, I don't understand what you mean by the AG to AA comment.  Its one button in the 18.  

 

I will preface this with horses for courses,  but my own personal opinion is different for what its worth.

I have many hours in all 3 of the virtual planes dcs gives us you mention, but using your example of 4 different targets within a couple of miles, if you are set up already to use jdams in the Viper, all you have to do is move the tgp over each target, and press weapon release,  no other button is needed. This is due to the SPI logic that is also present in the A-10, which i much prefer. 

I thought i wouldn't like the Mudhen because of the Hornet and same manufacturer, but i don't dislike the flow in the Mudhen anywhere near as much.  I'm actually enjoying the Mudhen way more than I thought i would!

Anyway,  each to their own. 

[rob10]

2 hours ago, DD_fruitbat said:

I have many hours in all 3 of the virtual planes dcs gives us you mention, but using your example of 4 different targets within a couple of miles, if you are set up already to use jdams in the Viper, all you have to do is move the tgp over each target, and press weapon release,  no other button is needed.

Having just done this with ATFLIR and JDAM in TOO tonight, I guess you are correct, but since the 2nd button press is a quick press of the TDC (which you're finger is already on since you're using it to move the view of the ATFLIR to over the target), I don't think there is really that big of difference the two.  I'll agree with the sentiment that a lot of it comes back to which you learned 1st and mostly to which one you currently use most as to which is easier.

[TobiasA]

If you want a steerpoint with all clues then just put that 9Line in, slew the TGP and create a markpoint.

Press 0 after setting the markpoint, making it the active one.

And why do you dobber back all the way? STPT, 1, Enter, and there you are at steer 1 or any received datalink point.

TOO? Press DMS up to make the HUD SOI, MARK, TMS up long, drop the circle somewhere, TMS up, there is your markpoint. Lay down fire.

HTS? You name it. Markpoint.

You got more markpoints than AG weapons in most cases. And you can go on and on with these.

[LastRifleRound]

I love the Viper's work flow. I think the DCS multiplayer server environment is clouding people's judgement.

It doesn't surprise me most of you find the A10C's interface better. It was made by going to Viper pilots and Hornet pilots, asking them what they liked about their HOTAS and what they didn't, and built on the results.

[LastRifleRound]

On 11/18/2023 at 6:02 PM, jeventy26 said:

I mean I am starting to figure it out... but CAS... I don't think its close to the Hornet.  Again, in a no waypoint scenario (this is important), if we had 4 targets separated by a couple of miles and we had JDAMS...  and lets say we both had a good idea where the enemy is.  I would put money I could engage and destroy them in the Hornet way before you could in the Viper.  (Same with the A-10 but that's for CAS so it doesn't count).  Also, I don't understand what you mean by the AG to AA comment.  Its one button in the 18.  

 

In what actual CAS scenario are you rippling 4 jdams on 4 targets in 4 miles in one go? JDAM TOO rippling is the number one AG thread on these forums typically and it is entirely a DCS contravention. It's cool you can do it in DCS, but knocking the real life control scheme for its ability to handle something almost no one was expected to actually do in a mission isn't logical.

Here's a different scenario: In which aircraft do you think you could more easily perform a low level ingress to pop-up dive bombing attack on a pre-planned target without GPS, with weak coordinates and without a visual on the target until you were in the groove for release given a strong relative reference? Here's a link to a write-up on the Osirak nuclear plant attack in 1981 conducted by Vipers using what appears to be the VIP method with a CCIP terminal attack. Note that missing the VIP for one of the pilots threw off his run enough that he actually had to do a go-around:

https://www.airandspaceforces.com/PDF/MagazineArchive/Documents/2012/April 2012/0412osirak.pdf

Everything in the Viper is built on the base of being able to do a mission like that. The A10C was pretty much gutted interface-wise and done from the ground up to suit more modern missions. I think people like that the A10 makes the least amount of assumptions of what the aircraft is supposed to be doing, but at the same time that makes certain things more complicated than they need to be. If you're doing a pre-planned strike on a target, why bother the pilot with constantly telling the aircraft's nav computer whether it should be paying attention or not? The Viper simply assumes if you slew something, it's because you're trying to acquire the thing you're after unless you're explicitly using a TOO mode. Makes it a lot easier.

I made a scenario wherein you need to bomb a non-descript building in a city in the Caucuses. The waypoint you're given is not on the target, simulating low coordinate resolution and drift, but a strong OA is given to a terrain feature and a VRP for a distinct shaped nearby building. If you do your slews right, you'll never see the target till a few seconds before release, and VID'ing it would be hard anyway, but with the TD box, combined with the two references make a precise CCIP delivery possible. All of this is done in less than a minute from run-in to delivery and LTL egress. You can do this sort of thing in the F15E, but the Hornet is so whacked out with bugs it can't do this and I'm not even sure how you'd begin to do something similar with the A10.

The Viper's AG mission has historically been closer to a Viggen's than an A10's, and I think multiplayer server's reliance on TOO vehicle plinking is making that more plain to see.

Edited November 21, 2023 by LastRifleRound

[drspankle]

Rather than creating a new SP, isn't it possible to create a Mark Point with the Tgp/Helmet/HUD, then hit M-Sel to make it the active SP. 

Dr Spankle

[TobiasA]

Yes, absolutely. I was only describing a possible and easy way to proceed from MGRS coordinates.

[Gunfreak]

I mean if you're doing CAS(as in close a air support, not the generic mission type CAS in DCS that means general air to ground/SEAD and whatever else you fancy) I would just use CCIP for bombs and if you have mavs, use their on board camera after visually IDing the target. As that is a quick way of doing it. Find the target(usually the FAC would give you a basic idea of where stuff is) roll in and take it out. Guns do wonders to anything short of an actual tank. And CCIP is very accurate in the F16. You can you can put down steerpoints in anyway you like simply as a visual orientation with using it to put bombs on target. 

[SickSidewinder9]

Weirdly, I find the F-16 much less clunky than the Hornet.  You kust point your SOI at something and shoot. The TPG doesn't even seem to follow an HMD POI in the Hornet (or is that a bug?).

[Keith Briscoe]

I just have to say I'm glad you are all struggling!  just kidding, but what I really mean is... thank gawd, I thought it was me.

I'm still new but spend a lot of time flying and studying manuals and forums and yt.  Obviously still learning, a ton, but i can successfully deploy most weapons at preplanned points. But a post above that notes that secondary TOO's can be a pain in the a$$... now that makes me feel better to know other more experienced folks are facing the same challenges as me.

I'll keep studying and trying.

[Buzz313th]

It's been weeks now that I have been training in the viper and things are starting to become a bit more fluid.  It still makes no logical sense that the weapons selection defines the method of use and limitation of the primary acquisition sensors..    But the more time I spend in it, the easier and more sense it makes.   It's still quite a bitch to be really fluid when engaging targets of opportunity. 

Edited December 1, 2023 by Buzz313th

[TED]

I recently started trying to really learn the viper, having learnt the a10c, Hornet and harrier before. I have to say I found the viper very frustrating to begin with as well as some of the logic follows through from the the others and some is totally different. Now however I really love it and find it very easy to use. My cas workflow is selecting tpod, select a weapon in vis or dtos mode, hmcs as soi, long tms up then short up on the target area Im looking at. Then dms down to reselect tgp as soi, and designate a target. 
if it’s something I’ll come back to I’ll select mark on icp, ensure tgp on the cni is selected by dobber switch, then tms up short. Mark point saved. 
I find myself now using mavericks and other guided munitions this way, then using ccip bombing for most cluster and unguided stuff to clean up. 
take out the really dangerous stuff with mavericks or agm154 then ccip on the rest.

[Tenkom]

On 11/17/2023 at 8:47 PM, jeventy26 said:

TY!  This is what I was afraid of though.  Engaging one target and trying to quickly engage another following 6 steps can be a hell of a workload. Forget that my other weapon isn't a JDAM and its Rockets or something... I am going to panic lol.    Hornet or A-10 it is MUCH quicker.  I guess if that's how it is I better get to practicing!

You only need to do the last 3 steps for the next target. It's no faster in the hornet.

Step 3 is the only real difference(apart from pressing different buttons).

[drspankle]

The viper is the most successful selling multi-role combat aircraft in history.  Obviously there are a lot of market forces at play here, but it didn’t become that because it’s difficult to use …

Dr Spankle