correct as-is CAT I/III Question

[SpecterDC13]

Yeah pretty much what Falconeer said.  But again, just remember what is loaded to your jet and ignore as needed.  Most situations you can just ignore it.  And honestly until ED implements more effects in terms of G loads on equipment you should be alright either way.  Ive flown with guys that have never flown in CAT III and have pulled more than enough Gs with certain configurations.  But if you want the realism and immersion then you know what to do. 

[SickSidewinder9]

Interesting.  All very interesting.  And yes, it's all a bit moot until we get proper over G damage modeling (among all the other damage modeling).  So, does the Cat switch have more to do with total weight than CG?

Edited January 15 by SickSidewinder9

[skywalker22]

On 1/11/2024 at 6:26 PM, SpecterDC13 said:

@BIGNEWYSo far it seems to be correct as is.  Right? 

No, you said if TGP and/or HTS pods are installed, the plane should be in CAT III, right? Which is not.

[skywalker22]

5 hours ago, Nealius said:

I've been flying a lot of Viper recently and the DCS behavior does not follow this. The three points not reflected in DCS colored in red text. After dropping A/G ordnance the system advises me to go CATI despite having two wing tanks and the TGP.

Two wing tanks should be CAT I, but based on @SpecterDC13 words, which bases on RL experience & knowledge, TGP should be CAT III (currently is still CAT I, as I said my last post).

[Furiz]

It makes sense that sensitive electronics should be CAT III.

But SMS page doesnt have cheek stations as far as I know so the jet doesnt know if it has TGP/HTS loaded.

So when ag weapons are dropped stores warning is given cause the jet thinks CAT I should be used.

 

As far as I know, in real life pilots have G force limits when TGP or HTS is loaded, and they dont go over those limits or they can damage the jet or electronics. Same goes with AG weapons. 

CAT I or III are AOE limiters as far as I understand. We can still pull 9G in any configuration. But in DCS there is no damage to electronics.

[Nealius]

1 hour ago, skywalker22 said:

Two wing tanks should be CAT I

Wing tanks are CAT III. There should be documentation explaining all of this in the -2, but I can't find a freely available copy of it.

[skywalker22]

3 hours ago, Furiz said:

It makes sense that sensitive electronics should be CAT III.

But SMS page doesnt have cheek stations as far as I know so the jet doesnt know if it has TGP/HTS loaded.

That's a question for @SpecterDC13, I'm sure he will have a reasonable answer. Why would he then claim that TGP/HTS pods are automatically CAT III. There must be an answer to that.

[Falconeer]

11 hours ago, Nealius said:

Wing tanks are CAT III. There should be documentation explaining all of this in the -2, but I can't find a freely available copy of it.

Correct and that's also an issue that a lot of this stuff is not described in the public documents

 

 

If you are going to slap big heavy stuff onto the plane, things are changing to the flight caracteristics and need to be within certain boundries. That why the switch is there to prevent certain movements of the aircraft, so the FCLS doesn't lose control.

Remember that the F-16 cannot fly without computers, because it has a very unstable design (hence it's maneuverability) 

The CAT I / III switch doesn't limit how much G's you can pull directly, but it limits AoA and roll, which in terms affects how many G's you can pull at a certain speed. In Cat III, you can still hit 9 G's, but you need a higher speed to do so.

You can test it by loading the jet up with bombs and wing tanks and start a steep climb. Put the switch in Cat I and start a roll and pull on the stick to command max AoA and you'll most likely loose control of the aircraft. Now try the same again with the switch in Cat III and the system will project you from loosing control (departing controlled flight is the correct term)

Edited January 21 by Falconeer

[Falconeer]

On 1/11/2024 at 7:27 AM, skywalker22 said:

Should our Block 50 recognize whats on stations 5L and 5R?

If nothing else, it would be good if it would, sometimes I have missions where your only view is from the cockpit, and thats why you don't know what is there on these 2 stations (online pre-planed missions).

The aircraft does not "know" what is mounted to the chin stations. All other stations are programmed manually by the SMS page or via the DTC

[SpecterDC13]

On 1/20/2024 at 12:03 AM, skywalker22 said:

No, you said if TGP and/or HTS pods are installed, the plane should be in CAT III, right? Which is not.

Yes, the TGP and HTS are both considered CAT III stores.  Here we go again.

17 hours ago, skywalker22 said:

Two wing tanks should be CAT I, but based on @SpecterDC13 words, which bases on RL experience & knowledge, TGP should be CAT III (currently is still CAT I, as I said my last post).

 

The jet does not know what is installed on stations 5L and 5R.  Therefore it is the pilots' responsibility to know what is loaded and to ensure that he stays in the correct CAT.  If he has the TGP or HTS pods he is still CAT III. Even after you release stores off of stations 3 and 7 and you get the caution light you should ignore it and stay in CAT III.  Remember the jet does not know that you have stores on 5L and 5R.

 

22 hours ago, Nealius said:

I've been flying a lot of Viper recently and the DCS behavior does not follow this. The three points not reflected in DCS colored in red text. After dropping A/G ordnance the system advises me to go CATI despite having two wing tanks and the TGP.

Please refer to my other comments in this forum. 

 

13 hours ago, skywalker22 said:

That's a question for @SpecterDC13, I'm sure he will have a reasonable answer. Why would he then claim that TGP/HTS pods are automatically CAT III. There must be an answer to that.

Per the -2 TGPs and pods are CATIII regardless of other stores.

[SickSidewinder9]

The jet doesn't just check if those stations are powered on?

Also, wing tanks with lots of fuel seems like Cat3.  If 500lb bombs on the inner wing pylons triggers cat 3, fuel tanks weighing 4x as much should, unless there's something really really different about the way they are attached.  Please let me know if I'm wrong.

Also, some of you have managed to get the plane to depart in the wrong stores cat in DCS?

 

And you just have to keep resetting the master caution when you have just TGP and jet wants cat 1?  Does the Sniper handle Cat1?  I still don't understand if it has more to do with CG or total weight.  Both?  G-load of the stores/hardpoint combos?

 

Side topic:  In 2024 the USAF doesn't have an updated flight control software that takes stores into account for G limiting?  A warning like in the F-15?  Anything?

Edited January 22 by SickSidewinder9

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

4 minutes ago, SickSidewinder9 said:

The jet doesn't just check if those stations are powered on?

Also, wing tanks with lots of fuel seems like Cat3.  If 500lb bombs on the inner wing pylons triggers cat 3, fuel tanks weighing 4x as much should, unless there's something really really different about the way they are attached.  Please let me know if I'm wrong.

Also, some of you have managed to get the plane to depart in the wrong stores cat in DCS?

 

And you just have to keep resetting the master caution when you have just TGP and jet wants cat 1?  Does the Sniper handle Cat1?  I still don't understand if it has more to do with CG or total weight.  Both?  G-load of the stores/hardpoint combos?

 

Side topic:  In 2024 the USAF doesn't have an updated flight control software that takes stores into account for G limiting?  A warning like in the F-15?  Anything?

 

My guess is the intake attaching points aren´t wired for those checks, simple as that.
The very same not every item for the inventory works on every station.

[Falconeer]

13 minutes ago, SickSidewinder9 said:

The jet doesn't just check if those stations are powered on?

No

13 minutes ago, SickSidewinder9 said:

Also, wing tanks with lots of fuel seems like Cat3.  If 500lb bombs on the inner wing pylons triggers cat 3, fuel tanks weighing 4x as much should, unless there's something really really different about the way they are attached.  Please let me know if I'm wrong.

Wing tanks are Cat III

13 minutes ago, SickSidewinder9 said:

Also, some of you have managed to get the plane to depart 

Yes

13 minutes ago, SickSidewinder9 said:

Side topic:  In 2024 the USAF doesn't have an updated flight control software that takes stores into account for G limiting?  A warning like in the F-15?  Anything?

That's what the stores config switch does, depending on the load

Edited January 22 by Falconeer

[Nealius]

At this point my thinking is "ignore the stores config advisory entirely and set the config switch as per -2." Which makes me question why the stores config advisory even exists if it disagrees with actual loading so often. 

Edited January 23 by Nealius

[SickSidewinder9]

21 hours ago, Falconeer said:

No

Wing tanks are Cat III

Yes

That's what the stores config switch does, depending on the load

 

Thanks!

 

17 hours ago, Nealius said:

At this point my thinking is "ignore the stores config advisory entirely and set the config switch as per -2." Which makes me question why the stores config advisory even exists if it disagrees with actual loading so often. 

 

Well, the plane was designed in the 70's and has changed a bit since then.

[Nealius]

7 hours ago, SickSidewinder9 said:

Well, the plane was designed in the 70's and has changed a bit since then.

That was my assumption for the background behind the advisory confusion, but the Hornet was designed in the same time frame, has also changed a bit since then, but has clearer and more consistent advisories in my opinion. Of course this is limited to DCS experience.

[SickSidewinder9]

17 hours ago, Nealius said:

That was my assumption for the background behind the advisory confusion, but the Hornet was designed in the same time frame, has also changed a bit since then, but has clearer and more consistent advisories in my opinion. Of course this is limited to DCS experience.

The YF-17 was designed in the 70's but the avionics/flcs (among other things) are a around decade newer, iirc, which is an enormous leap in computing power.  Also, it does seem like things like damage and advisories are much more complete in the Hornet module than the Viper module.  There's an entire advisory display in the Viper that is basically non-functional.  It will show a FLCS BIT failure now, I think if you cut off the FLCS BIT.  That's it.

Edited January 24 by SickSidewinder9