AAR tanker improvement

[grim_reaper68]

Hi

Would it be possible that once the refuelling is completed, as the tanker operator tells 'transfer completed" the drogue stays "physically", instead of having it going through the aircraft. It would add some realism to the AAR operation. I don't know if it's the same for the boom AAR as the probe and drogue. 

Another possible improvement, related to the first one, would be that the drogue stops going through the aircraft. I mean the only contact possible yet is between probe and drogue.  It could be nice to have the drogue bouncing when you missed it, or touch it with the fuselage. 

[Furiz]

ED is working on those psychics but no info when we might see that in game.

[MAXsenna]

Which module and which tanker? Can't ever remember that it happened to me. I have all modules.
Cheers!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[grim_reaper68]

The KC135 MPRS, with the Mirage F1, the F18, the F14 and the M2000

[rob10]

6 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Which module and which tanker? Can't ever remember that it happened to me. I have all modules.

Basically, if you're not cleared contact or you've finished refueling the hose and basket become a ghost hose and basket and have no collision/contact modelled.  You can see it if you get cleared on the left side but the right hose it out too -- you can put your probe directly through the basket on the right side and it won't move.  Or if you add power after it releases on completion of fuelling and instead of the basket riding up the canopy or fuselage it just disappears into it.  Generally it's a minor thing, but it would be nice touch if it continued having existence while it was extended.

My experience is F-18 and any of the basket refuelers (most commonly the KC-135MPRS)

Edited January 21, 2024 by rob10

[Gierasimov]

17 hours ago, grim_reaper68 said:

Hi

Would it be possible that once the refuelling is completed, as the tanker operator tells 'transfer completed" the drogue stays "physically", instead of having it going through the aircraft. It would add some realism to the AAR operation. I don't know if it's the same for the boom AAR as the probe and drogue. 

Another possible improvement, related to the first one, would be that the drogue stops going through the aircraft. I mean the only contact possible yet is between probe and drogue.  It could be nice to have the drogue bouncing when you missed it, or touch it with the fuselage. 

It does happen on all tankers and with the boom as well (noticeable with the Hog or Strike Eagle if you care to look). Seems almost like after the "transfer completed" the tanker slows down a bit. 

It is annoying and been raised at least once before. 

I mitigate it by throttling back immediately when I see the message "completed".

Yes, ED or more specifically Wags hinted that the "new hose and basket" physics are being worked on, but:

1. It was never officially announced (newsletter, or module roadmap).

2. We never had any confirmation or factual status update. 

3. Maybe it is being worked on by a third party for their module??

[Gierasimov]

8 hours ago, Furiz said:

ED is working on those psychics but no info when we might see that in game.

While it was mentioned by BN in October last year that 

Quote

work on refuelling physics continues, not in this patch

We don't have anything else on it and obviously many people saw that YT clip called "NOR Aerial Refuelling Testing" which kind of shows how it could behave in DCS if ED wanted to improve the current state. 

I also remember that ALE-50 Towed Decoy was awaiting cable physics which I think could be a common tech for both, the decoy and the drogue.

Maybe FF Fulcrum's drag chute work will also benefit from / contribute to this?

[MAXsenna]

The KC135 MPRS, with the Mirage F1, the F18, the F14 and the M2000

I guess my memory is incorrect then. Gotta recheck.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Germane]

I have asked in the big Newsletter what the current status is. The answer was:

"have no news to share at the moment. We have other tasks with higher priority currently "

So, it is just planned but sadly not in the work at the moment

[EchoOneOne]

On 1/22/2024 at 9:14 AM, Germane said:

I have asked in the big Newsletter what the current status is. The answer was:

"have no news to share at the moment. We have other tasks with higher priority currently "

So, it is just planned but sadly not in the work at the moment

I don't think it will come anytime soon. 

[grim_reaper68]

 

[upyr1]

The boom needs to be worked on too

[grim_reaper68]

As far as I tried to refuel the A-10C II, the boom seems to have a better physical interaction with the aircraft. My refuelling skills didn't allow me to make a correct refuelling with the F-16 (I need to work on it to maintain correct speed and attitude ), so I can't talk about it, and it's hard to look over the shoulder to see if the boom is going through the aircrafts body.

[draconus]

13 hours ago, grim_reaper68 said:

the boom seems to have a better physical interaction with the aircraft

In what terms is it better?

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

14 hours ago, grim_reaper68 said:

the boom seems to have a better physical interaction with the aircraft

It really doesn't: RL pilots say a boom is capable of "driving" you around. Once you're hooked up, it's much easier to maintain your position than it currently is in DCS.
It's why currently drogue refuelling is much much easier in DCS than boom refuelling, while IRL it is the other way around.

14 hours ago, grim_reaper68 said:

if the boom is going through the aircrafts body.

It does: if you fly in MP (with a squadron) you can see that.

[afnav130]

Yeah IRL the boom is much, much more stable. From what I have heard from IRL pilots that I fly with it does indeed hold you in place pretty much. There isn't as much give in it and it basically drives you around. 

 

The boom psychics need a massive overhaul and to me, this isn't something that will take very much to do.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

On 1/26/2024 at 5:59 PM, afnav130 said:

The boom psychics need a massive overhaul and to me

And that needs to be combined with proper communication with the boom operator.

Drogue physics should get looked at as well, with proper collision model and damage model. But that should probably be an optional tick-box since people already complain IFR is too hard. Imagine the complaining on the forum when the drogue can shatter your canopy, or break off the probe 

[draconus]

1 hour ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Imagine the complaining on the forum when the drogue can shatter your canopy, or break off the probe 

Why would anyone complain? Physics should not be optional.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

3 minutes ago, draconus said:

Why would anyone complain? Physics should not be optional.

Reading the forum, it seems sadly not everyone is as appreciative of fidelity and realism

[Exorcet]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

Why would anyone complain? Physics should not be optional.

There is no reason they can't be. A sim gives us the ability to choose how we interact with it, that's a good thing. On the practical side, an off option could be useful for the initial implementation (turn it off if it's buggy), for debugging (turn it off if it makes refueling easier and you're trying to examine a bug with refueling), or if it interacts poorly with other features (turn it off in multiplayer because lag turns the drogue into a hypersonic whip of doom that cuts planes in half).

[draconus]

Bugs need fixing, not turning features off. Devs can turn them off but it doesn't mean users should have the option. There's no point in making alternative reality in the sim that tries to simulate that reality the best it can.

[Exorcet]

5 hours ago, draconus said:

Bugs need fixing, not turning features off.

Fixing takes time, and bugs can only be fixed if they are found. The AI has been terrible at fuel management for years. I've felt it as a mission maker. People requested for a long time that AI be given an unlimited fuel option. It was finally added recently and I'm including it as standard in missions because the AI still uses too much fuel.

There is value to having the option to disable things.

  

5 hours ago, draconus said:

Devs can turn them off but it doesn't mean users should have the option. There's no point in making alternative reality in the sim that tries to simulate that reality the best it can.

Users should always have the option. A simulator doesn't gain anything from forcing settings on users, nor is any realism lost by allowing users to enable or disable features.

While giving the option allows for users to get around potentially serious problems while waiting for a fix.

[grim_reaper68]

I my mind, there is no need to have damage from the drogue or boom, only a more realistic interaction between the drogue and the aircraft, like the droggue bouncing on the fuselage if you touch it, and not going through the whole aircraft.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

In a perfect world, there would be damage caused by all sorts of things. People abuse their aircraft far too much and have come to rely on "DCS-isms" because they can simply respawn if something happens. Control surfaces getting stuck, hydraulic actuators being damaged, landing gear damage, store damage from overspeeding/over-G, ... 
Personally, I'd love to see DCS include much more realistic stuff as long as it makes sense in a simulator. But that's just me... I perfectly understand certain "accessibility" toggles for those who don't want to go overboard  

[Exorcet]

3 hours ago, grim_reaper68 said:

I my mind, there is no need to have damage from the drogue or boom, only a more realistic interaction between the drogue and the aircraft, like the droggue bouncing on the fuselage if you touch it, and not going through the whole aircraft.

You could say that there isn't a need for very much at all, flight sims from long ago were pretty bare bones. Refueling damage is nice to have simply because it's realistic, and it because it rewards proper flying. It'll also be another factor to plan for when in the air. Learn your emergency procedures and be ready to put your knowledge to the test.