Probable F-4E Social Media Backlash

[Kalasnkova74]

For those unaware, two (unwillingly) retired fighter pilots occasionally make DCS content showcasing BFM engagements . In the linked video, Mover has trouble at times handing the relatively analog F-14 against Gonky in an F/A-18. 

Note these people are trained fighter pilots and thus more experienced than your typical DCS player. If Mover had some trouble, it’s safe to say the average YouTuber used to 4th generation tech is in for more challenges flying and fighting the F-4E, especially for BFM. 

I wouldn’t be surprised if the same people hyping up the F-4E now online turn against the aircraft once they lose BFM bouts - either to bad tactics (4th Gen “lift vector and PULL” won’t work here) or to bad aircraft handling like adverse yaw or fighting with the yaw stability augmentation on. The manual nature of weapons delivery will probably be another nail in the social media coffin , since it’ll be dead reckoning nav & mils/airspeed/ dive angle instead of a JDAM and targeting pod. Pave Spike and Maverick will offer electronic targeting options, but it’ll be a shadow of later tech. 

[LordOrion]

Are you trying to say that dogfighting on an F-4E will be more troublesome than on an F-16C?

Whoa! I would never have said it!

[G.J.S]

For those who come from a background of airframes that in effect have no vices and aid the pilot, it can indeed be frustrating trying to utilise an older aircraft in a manner to which your muscle memory and expectations are accustomed to.

The F-16 & F-18 are both types that have a multitude of computer assistance to enable safe and effective flight.

The F-14 and especially the F-4 are from an age where if you are ham fisted or subscribe to the “bang-bang” method of flying (stick stirring) then you have an airframe that will actively take part in your demise. It WILL try to kill you.

That’s not to say that newer flight crews could not handle an older lady, they will just need a few more “get to know you” hours to learn its idiosyncrasies before handling it, and learning that there is no brain to stop you from killing yourself.

Dont take Movers performance as an indicator of older being just “too damn hard”, it is just something that those used to “flying laptops” will have to realise that you are now in a situation that demands finesse and forethought.

 

[Gunfreak]

I mean DCS isn't directly transferable to real life and real life isn't directly transferable to DCS.

There is some overlap, those that are/have been real fighter pilots can become really good DCS pilots. But they still need to learn the modual. F14 doesn't fly like the 16 or 18.  Probably doesn't fly like anything Mover has ever flown from Cessnas to 737s or whatever airliner he flies.

Give him 10 hours of training and he'll probably become a fantastic DCS F14 pilot. Far better than 99% of DCS F14 pilots.

If the F4 is as "easy" too fly as the F14 we'll be lucky. While less forgiving in hard pressed situations than the 16 and 18. Its a breeze to take of and land with.

The F16 is a bitch to take off and land with. Feels like the tires had coated in cooking lil the way it slips and kids on both take of and landing. Lots of careful rudder movement. That easily gets too much and you start to weer off the runway.

The F14 is dead stable on take off. Bearly touched  the pedals. And you can clunk her down on landing. And this was just today, my first ever runway take off and landing in the F14. The first hours in the F16 i blew up repeatedly as the 16 weered of on both take off and landing.

[Kalasnkova74]

30 minutes ago, G.J.S said:

Dont take Movers performance as an indicator of older being just “too damn hard”, it is just something that those used to “flying laptops” will have to realise that you are now in a situation that demands finesse and forethought.

 

You’re spot on, but I suspect the flying laptop content creation gang may instead declare the F-4E “rubbish”. We don’t live in an era that respects forethought & context

[HWasp]

1 hour ago, Kalasnkova74 said:

For those unaware, two (unwillingly) retired fighter pilots occasionally make DCS content showcasing BFM engagements . In the linked video, Mover has trouble at times handing the relatively analog F-14 against Gonky in an F/A-18. 

Note these people are trained fighter pilots and thus more experienced than your typical DCS player. If Mover had some trouble, it’s safe to say the average YouTuber used to 4th generation tech is in for more challenges flying and fighting the F-4E, especially for BFM. 

I wouldn’t be surprised if the same people hyping up the F-4E now online turn against the aircraft once they lose BFM bouts - either to bad tactics (4th Gen “lift vector and PULL” won’t work here) or to bad aircraft handling like adverse yaw or fighting with the yaw stability augmentation on. The manual nature of weapons delivery will probably be another nail in the social media coffin , since it’ll be dead reckoning nav & mils/airspeed/ dive angle instead of a JDAM and targeting pod. Pave Spike and Maverick will offer electronic targeting options, but it’ll be a shadow of later tech. 

I'm sure there will be many people complaining. 

My guess, how it will go in multiplayer:

Get F-4, load full fuel, 3 bags, 8 missiles, take off 30nm from frontline. Try to use sparrows, but all the MiGs are in the ground clutter of course, so waste one shot maybe. Drop the tanks, merge with MiG-21, still having full internal fuel and 2-3 sparrows and all the aim-9s on the aircraft, try to use the vertical, but this a 21bis and DCS so it does not work, loose speed, struggle with controls, get shot, go complain on the forum. (Just joking  )

 

Regarding the video, I think, everyone needs DCS hours and practice on the given DCS module to get good at flying that particular DCS module, regardless of their background and training. Even if you'd get an F-14 pilot there, who has never flown DCS, practice would still be needed most likely because the actual controls are completely different for example.

Edited February 10, 2024 by HWasp

[Tango3B]

1 hour ago, Kalasnkova74 said:

You’re spot on, but I suspect the flying laptop content creation gang may instead declare the F-4E “rubbish”. We don’t live in an era that respects forethought & context

Well, there are a lot of people who say the same about the Mirage F1. Yet, the F1 can be bad ass if you know how to fly it to its strength and how to set up your controls properly. But yeah, we will certainly have some whining…

Concerning Mover having trouble handling the Tomcat…well, he is used to really feeling a jet when he pushes it to its limit. A real jet gives you certain sensations you will never experience in DCS. And the Tomcat is one of these DCS modules that really require training and careful handling. You cannot blame Mover for that…I think most real world pilots do have some trouble adapting to DCS in terms of „Do I really feel the jet…“

[Victory205]

1 hour ago, G.J.S said:

The F-14 and especially the F-4 are from an age where if you are ham fisted or subscribe to the “bang-bang” method of flying (stick stirring) then you have an airframe that will actively take part in your demise. It WILL try to kill you.

That used to be called “knowing how to fly a tactical jet”. A lost art, evidently.

It really is simple-

1. Don’t pull too hard.

2. Be smooth with control inputs.

3. At high AOA, center the stick and roll with rudder only.  

Keep trying until you are proficient in all of the above.

It’s a desktop sim, you’re sitting on your arse in a chair that is firmly on the ground. There is no reason to be intimidated or overwhelmed. Learn one step at a time.

1 hour ago, G.J.S said:

Dont take Movers performance as an indicator of older being just “too damn hard”, it is just something that those used to “flying laptops” will have to realise that you are now in a situation that demands finesse and forethought.

A bunch of real pilots from my era, who tend to be dismissive of Youtube Hero’s, especially those who vomit every detail of their lives in public, call those two guys, “Loser” and the “Donkey”. 

We have a bunch of great guys from a time where drama and nonsense is met with acerbic, but hilarious commentary. Cold, but effective, it’s a valuable tradition.

Edited February 10, 2024 by Victory205

[MAXsenna]

A bunch of real pilots from my era, who tend to be dismissive of Youtube Hero’s, especially those who vomit every detail of their lives in public, call those two guys, “Loser” and the “Donkey”. 

Pretty much why I stopped watching.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[freehand]

I don't think they are much interested in taking a game seriously and certainly do not care what peoples opinions are on forums.  

[MAXsenna]

I don't think they are much interested in taking a game seriously and certainly do not care what peoples opinions are on forums.  

WTFC!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Dannyvandelft]

I love watching guys like "Slammer" Richardson and "Nasty" Menazzer interviews. Guys who really know how to fly an aircraft like the Tomcat. Down to earth guys who I'd love to buy a beer. I wouldn't buy Mover a free cup of water.
When you watch a show like the Tomcast you get a whole different vibe. Guys who loved their aircraft and the people that made her fly.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[G.J.S]

2 hours ago, Victory205 said:

That used to be called “knowing how to fly a tactical jet”. A lost art, evidently.

It really is simple-

1. Don’t pull too hard.

2. Be smooth with control inputs.

3. At high AOA, center the stick and roll with rudder only.  

Keep trying until you are proficient in all of the above.

It’s a desktop sim, you’re sitting on your arse in a chair that is firmly on the ground. There is no reason to be intimidated or overwhelmed. Learn one step at a time.

A bunch of real pilots from my era, who tend to be dismissive of Youtube Hero’s, especially those who vomit every detail of their lives in public, call those two guys, “Loser” and the “Donkey”. 

We have a bunch of great guys from a time where drama and nonsense is met with acerbic, but hilarious commentary. Cold, but effective, it’s a valuable tradition.

 

Very true. 

[=475FG= Dawger]

4 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

I mean DCS isn't directly transferable to real life and real life isn't directly transferable to DCS.

There is some overlap, those that are/have been real fighter pilots can become really good DCS pilots. But they still need to learn the modual. F14 doesn't fly like the 16 or 18.  Probably doesn't fly like anything Mover has ever flown from Cessnas to 737s or whatever airliner he flies.

Give him 10 hours of training and he'll probably become a fantastic DCS F14 pilot. Far better than 99% of DCS F14 pilots.

If the F4 is as "easy" too fly as the F14 we'll be lucky. While less forgiving in hard pressed situations than the 16 and 18. Its a breeze to take of and land with.

The F16 is a bitch to take off and land with. Feels like the tires had coated in cooking lil the way it slips and kids on both take of and landing. Lots of careful rudder movement. That easily gets too much and you start to weer off the runway.

The F14 is dead stable on take off. Bearly touched  the pedals. And you can clunk her down on landing. And this was just today, my first ever runway take off and landing in the F14. The first hours in the F16 i blew up repeatedly as the 16 weered of on both take off and landing.

This is wrong. 
 

I have seen guys who are good at BFM IRL jump into any aircraft they choose in DCS and still perform at a very high level in DCS, certainly good enough to cook the average DCS goose. 
 

I have literally talked them through startup and some basic switchology and proceeded to fly with them as they go out and get multiple PvP kills. 
 

Only meeting someone with basic parity in BFM would make any difference. 

[Fromthedeep]

2 hours ago, freehand said:

I don't think they are much interested in taking a game seriously and certainly do not care what peoples opinions are on forums.  

What's also likely is that they don't really want to use their actual skills, game plans and tactics to max perform the aircraft for obvious reasons.

[=475FG= Dawger]

2 hours ago, Fromthedeep said:

What's also likely is that they don't really want to use their actual skills, game plans and tactics to max perform the aircraft for obvious reasons.

Not much about BFM is anywhere near classified and there are real world guys flying in DCS.

The ones I know are only interested in the fight and will happily wade into long odds furballs. They are not interested in “procedure”.

They don’t hold back in a fight.

They tend to stay away from BVR stuff because

1. It’s dull

2. There are classified aspects 

 

 

[Nealius]

What's 100% likely is that they're just having fun.

Why is this even a discussion?

[Jayhawk1971]

IMO, in DCS, a force feedback stick makes all the difference with pretty much every module (especially helicopters and older aircraft from Warbirds up to the Tomcat). It even helps with fly-by-wire jets like the Viper and Hornet, as it does provide at least some tactile feedback you just don't get sitting at your desk.  Additional peripherals (but kicker?) or more expensive solutions like a 6DOF motion platform would probably help even more.

WRT to Mover and Gonky, I suppose that they are simply struggling with the fact that their acquired muscle memory and visual cues simply do not translate into DCS and the restrictions imposed by the setup. IMO it's an interface problem, not a "skills" problem. Those who have been playing flight sims for most of their lives are much more used to those restrictions.

Also, I suppose they don't take it all that seriously (which is ok if that's how they feel about the DCS thing), they seem to enjoy goofing off and create YT content they can monetize, and why shouldn't they?! If there's an audience for that sort of content (400k+ subscribers suggest there is), go for it!  YouTube can be a viable business if you consistently get the required views, or at least a lucrative side hustle. Of course some grifting is required, but so is in selling insurance.  

For my part, I think it's somewhat disappointing that they take it too casually, as their knowledge could be very helpful to virtual DCS "pilots" who would like to take that hobby more seriously and emulate the "real thing" as much as possible, without them giving away too much sensitive information. 

IMO Casmo strikes a good balance between being helpful but also providing lighthearted entertainment without taking himself too seriously. 

Edited February 12, 2024 by Jayhawk1971

[Jayhawk1971]

vor 19 Stunden schrieb MAXsenna:

 

 

Pretty much why I stopped watching.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

 

I still watch occasionally, I just filter out the useful or entertaining parts of their content and ignore the rest. Generally, a healthy amount of skepticism towards any source of information navigated me quite well through 52 years on this unremarkable speck of dust far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the Western Spiral Arm of the Galaxy. 

Edited February 11, 2024 by Jayhawk1971

[Gunfreak]

3 hours ago, Jayhawk1971 said:

IMO, in DCS, a force feedback stick makes all the difference with pretty much every module (especially helicopters and older aircraft from Warbirds up to the Tomcat). It even helps with fly-by-wire jets like the Viper and Hornet, as it does provide at least some tactile feedback you just don't get sitting at your desk.  Additional peripherals (but kicker?) or more expensive solutions like a 6DOF motion platform would probably help even more.

WRT to Mover and Gonky, I suppose that they are simply struggling with the fact that their acquired muscle memory and visual cues simply do not translate into DCS and the restrictions imposed by the setup. IMO it's an interface problem, not a "skills" problem. Those who have been playing flight sims for most of their lives are much more used to those restrictions.

Also, I suppose they don't take it all that seriously (which is ok in my book), they seem to enjoy goofing off and create YT content they can monetize, and why shouldn't they?! If there's an audience for that sort of content (400k+ subscribers suggest there is), go for it!  YouTube can be a viable business if you consistently get the required views, or at least a lucrative side hustle. Of course some grifting is required, but so is in selling insurance.  

For my part, I think it's somewhat disappointing that they take it too casually, as their knowledge could be very helpful to virtual DCS "pilots" who would like to take that hobby more seriously and emulate the "real thing" as much as possible, without them giving away too much sensitive information. 

IMO Casmo strikes a good balance between being helpful but also providing lighthearted entertainment without taking himself too seriously. 

 

Wish FFB was better in DCS, the F14 is the only jet I would class as having full force feedback. And flying it with a FFB stick and simshaker pad is amazing.

The dcs warbirds have very weak FFB effects. Some basics are there like lift under the control surfaces, stall shaking to some degree and some trim effects. But diving down past 500mph in the Mustang there is very little force acting on the stick. In other ww2 sims you pass 500mph in the Mustang and you really have to pull to get that stick back. And in yet another ww2 sim the force feedback effects are such you can really feel you have to fight that stick/plane to get the nose/sight on the enemy if forces are acting on the plane. Or feeling how much more you have to work to roll one type of plane vs another.

None of that is present in dcs warbirds. The stick gives tiny hint of things. But never forces you to actually use any force to move the stick.

It's fantastic for helicopter trim of course, only way to get proper force trim.

I do home the F4 will be as good as the F14 when it comes to FFB effects.

Edited February 11, 2024 by Gunfreak

[=475FG= Dawger]

8 hours ago, Jayhawk1971 said:

For my part, I think it's somewhat disappointing that they take it too casually, as their knowledge could be very helpful to virtual DCS "pilots" who would like to take that hobby more seriously and emulate the "real thing" as much as possible, without them giving away too much sensitive information

Every time someone with very direct real world experience points out something contrary to popular flight simmer doctrine, the excuses fly as to why that couldn’t possibly be correct. Smartest thing to do is not waste your time. 

[RaisedByWolves]

On 2/10/2024 at 11:45 AM, freehand said:

I don't think they are much interested in taking a game seriously and certainly do not care what peoples opinions are on forums.  

Likewise - not many do not take them seriously, or care about their opinions. 

[leonardo_c]

On 2/10/2024 at 6:10 PM, Tango3B said:

You cannot blame Mover for that…I think most real world pilots do have some trouble adapting to DCS in terms of „Do I really feel the jet…“

this is an open point I have discussed with many players and it applies to other sims.

I am not real airplane pilot but I have experience in sports driving so I will use an analogy with track driving and racing sims.

in real racing driving you drive a lot more with your seat of the pants than with your hands...and most corrections happen instinctively even before anything happens "visually".

on the other hand, when we drive using our small screens all players will react to things "when they see it" and usually, in real life, this will be just too late...when you have enough oversteer to be visually seeing the oversteer, even if a few degrees, you have already lost control and at this point you are just a passenger. I'm talking about track prepared cars not your "out-of-the-dealer fast sedan bmw m3 or porsche 911".

ffb steering wheels can mitigate this a lot but then you have the hardcore fanatics who will say that "car X usually should spin without warning because it was a b*tch and that's how it should be represented ingame and you need to learn to drive it and so this game is unrealistic and the devs are very bad and let's open bugz and let's youtube content about it etcetcetc",  we know the drill.

same applies to flight sims. When we read from pilots that "plane X did not give any stall warning" we will have hardcore fanatics asking for the plane to be modelled accordingly which from a computer game perspective makes things horrible, in my personal opinion.

hard time for devs to balance playability and fidelity. at the very bottom, dcs is still a computer game.

things get even more tricky when taking into account that a small movement on our plastic stick is equivalent to a large movement from a metal stick rooted at your feet with hydraulics, shaking with the plane, etc.

Edited February 12, 2024 by leonardo_c

[Talisman_VR]

On 2/11/2024 at 4:19 PM, Gunfreak said:

Wish FFB was better in DCS, the F14 is the only jet I would class as having full force feedback. And flying it with a FFB stick and simshaker pad is amazing.

The dcs warbirds have very weak FFB effects. Some basics are there like lift under the control surfaces, stall shaking to some degree and some trim effects. But diving down past 500mph in the Mustang there is very little force acting on the stick. In other ww2 sims you pass 500mph in the Mustang and you really have to pull to get that stick back. And in yet another ww2 sim the force feedback effects are such you can really feel you have to fight that stick/plane to get the nose/sight on the enemy if forces are acting on the plane. Or feeling how much more you have to work to roll one type of plane vs another.

None of that is present in dcs warbirds. The stick gives tiny hint of things. But never forces you to actually use any force to move the stick.

It's fantastic for helicopter trim of course, only way to get proper force trim.

I do home the F4 will be as good as the F14 when it comes to FFB effects.

 

Love FFB!    Would not purchase/fly a model without FFB.  I trust that we will have good FFB modelled for the Phantom and Chinook.  FFB joystick plus JetPad with SimShaker software along with VR and haptic earphones makes a wonderfully immersive flight simulation with DCS aircraft.  

FFB.  You know it makes sense.  

Happy landings,

Talisman

Edited February 12, 2024 by Talisman_VR

[RustBelt]

On 2/10/2024 at 9:54 AM, Kalasnkova74 said:

For those unaware, two (unwillingly) retired fighter pilots occasionally make DCS content showcasing BFM engagements . In the linked video, Mover has trouble at times handing the relatively analog F-14 against Gonky in an F/A-18. 

Note these people are trained fighter pilots and thus more experienced than your typical DCS player. If Mover had some trouble, it’s safe to say the average YouTuber used to 4th generation tech is in for more challenges flying and fighting the F-4E, especially for BFM. 

I wouldn’t be surprised if the same people hyping up the F-4E now online turn against the aircraft once they lose BFM bouts - either to bad tactics (4th Gen “lift vector and PULL” won’t work here) or to bad aircraft handling like adverse yaw or fighting with the yaw stability augmentation on. The manual nature of weapons delivery will probably be another nail in the social media coffin , since it’ll be dead reckoning nav & mils/airspeed/ dive angle instead of a JDAM and targeting pod. Pave Spike and Maverick will offer electronic targeting options, but it’ll be a shadow of later tech. 

It’s social media, Backlash is both a given, and an intended feature of all ad monetized platforms.

The F-4 will not be universally loved. It doesn’t fix your mistakes.