1.1 Copy Protection Update

[britgliderpilot]

One more thing (especially to Stormin):

When you react on our comments or disappointment, think about what is FAIR and not what is legal. They are miles apart. You are a lot more intelligent person than to quote EULAs. Nobody reads EULAs. Why? Because they are nothing else but a bunch of excuses and a few promises which are usually broken.

 

If the legal use of a piece of software is more complicated than the illegal use of it, fewer people will buy it. Isn't it simple?

 

When I pay for a game, I do not want to be dependent on any further communication with the publisher. What if I temporarily move to another place with a different machine with no broadband connection? Am I not entitled to play the game then?

 

I still hope ED will offer another, fairer solution.

 

 

Yes . . . . . but "fair" would also be to not pirate games. If a significant section of the community refuses to play fair, and they are damaging ED by doing so . . . . . then I'm all for ED playing by the rules.

 

I can't blame ED for wanting to be paid for their work - can you?

 

 

All the information I've seen says that this copy protection will work reasonably smoothly - yes, we have to pay a bit of a price for it in terms of registering, but I find that infinitely preferable to ED shutting up shop.

[Dutch60]

Just one simple question, what would happen if all the SF key check servers would crumble and die on us under the load of a DOS (Denial of Service) attack, would we then all be unable to startup FC or will we only be unable to register our legitimate download copy of FC. :?:

[britgliderpilot]

Just one simple question, what would happen if all the SF key check servers would crumble and die on us under the load of a DOS (Denial of Service) attack, would we then all be unable to startup FC or will we only be unable to register our legitimate download copy of FC. :?:

 

Unable to register for the period of the DoS attack.

 

 

Given the troubles of Steam and WinXP, I think a one-time online registration is a pretty user-friendly method . . . .

[Dutch60]

One other quick question and I know this may be dangerous to ask, as this is a version of SF that does not check the legitimacy of a hardcopy CD that must be present in one of your CD/DVD drives but it uses the internet to register you in some way, would it not be easy to write some local service running on your local machine that would trick SF protection into thinking you are registering on the internet while in fact it is being registered by a crack service on the machine :?:

[britgliderpilot]

One other quick question and I know this may be dangerous to ask, as this is a version of SF that does not check the legitimacy of a hardcopy CD that must be present in one of your CD/DVD drives but it uses the internet to register you in some way, would it not be easy to write some local service running on your local machine that would trick SF protection into thinking you are registering on the internet while in fact it is being registered by a crack service on the machine :?:

 

Check Dmut's post at the top of page 6 of this thead.

 

 

It sounds like it won't work unless you have the specific software that StarForce uses to do clever things to the keys . . . . but I can't confirm that.

[schimmel]

@britgliderpilot

 

alright. after all it's about flaming cliffs not flaming threads :wink: .

 

@Dutch60

 

AFAIK SF uses strong cryptography. That's why SF is so hard to crack. Not because it uses a system service. The executable is encrypted. Thus it needs to be decrypted by SF before it can be executed.

 

I hope this is not total nonsense :D .

[flyimp]

 

With that tiny, tiny, piece of information, Starforce has enough to do marketing analysis on your purchaesing habits (or on gamers as a group). They'll be able to tell what kinds of games simmers purchase, and so on. Sure, they might not know XYZZY-etc. is Vang, but they might know I bought this game and a couple of others. THAT, my friends, is privacy invasion.

..

 

SO WHAT U ARE SAYIING is that if a person used some other cracked software not a game but possi music then starforce will relay that back and if you got one of the old cracked games\or photoshop or a dvd then you will be listed as a possible user of cracked software.

Well then dont do the crime if you carnt pay the fine. dont want to cause trouble but we want the addon released...

In 2 years it wont even matter about this what edis protecting, it will be trivial when you look back its the same every where regarding info data collecting its the natural evolution of big brother mentality goverments encourage in industery in the name of research not all will be for marketing and buying habbits comeon wake up\home land security\antiterror laws will eventually use this info so we will have to get used to it . ( FORGIVE ME WAY OFF SUBJECT) anyway

I dont mean this addon but all this is comeing .so lets have the addon hurry dont start another row or geting ed to re start negotiating with another group of protection devlopers lets go now and pay and dowload it.. wait for it install it and play it ( my pc is clean) :axe:..

sorry for pronunciationnnn but from back end of wigan manchester wooly back slightley dislexic can not spelll went to work from 13 years old

[schimmel]

Punctuation is your friend.

 

Ok I got your point. But all this is not about Big Brother I think. You agree to the EULA, so be ready to get analysed.

 

2 points left:

 

- Can I still play the game in 2 years after ED or the support is gone? (Falcon 4)

 

- Security of your system.

 

Those 2 points have nothing to do with Big Brother.

[bflagg]

Wags,

I image my OS so I don't have to keep re-activating with M$.

This way, I can do whatever I want and no matter what be back up and

running in as little as 20min.

 

These images DO NOT include games, just necessary apps and updated windows.

Since starforce is not in the image, what happens when other programs pooch my PC, and i reapply the image?

Make no mistake, I've actually reimaged my PC 3 times in a week testing something and then reinstalled whatever proggy's I wanted afterwards.

 

In this case I do think this will cause problems with ED's implementation of starforce. (example: due to the way Half-Life and steam went, after the 3rd time of reinstalling I no longer install or play it. It's too much of a hassle. And I'm quite sure I'm not the only one).

 

I run three Notes Domains globally, NT administration, and a host of other IT stuff, both from my home and work. So testing is necessary from time to time for myself and I can already foresee this getting in the way.

 

Shit, I even have a image with has no Video drivers, so when ATI puts out a major point release of the catalyst, I'm at a "clean" state.

 

What will ED do for people who are in my position?

 

 

thanks,

 

 

appear my question got lost in all the panic posts....

bump....

[britgliderpilot]

Wags,

I image my OS so I don't have to keep re-activating with M$.

This way, I can do whatever I want and no matter what be back up and

running in as little as 20min.

 

These images DO NOT include games, just necessary apps and updated windows.

Since starforce is not in the image, what happens when other programs pooch my PC, and i reapply the image?

Make no mistake, I've actually reimaged my PC 3 times in a week testing something and then reinstalled whatever proggy's I wanted afterwards.

 

In this case I do think this will cause problems with ED's implementation of starforce. (example: due to the way Half-Life and steam went, after the 3rd time of reinstalling I no longer install or play it. It's too much of a hassle. And I'm quite sure I'm not the only one).

 

I run three Notes Domains globally, NT administration, and a host of other IT stuff, both from my home and work. So testing is necessary from time to time for myself and I can already foresee this getting in the way.

 

Shit, I even have a image with has no Video drivers, so when ATI puts out a major point release of the catalyst, I'm at a "clean" state.

 

What will ED do for people who are in my position?

 

 

thanks,

 

 

appear my question got lost in all the panic posts....

bump....

 

As far as I can work out, as long as it is the same PC, the same key should work without needing to re-register . . . . so the problem doesn't arise.

 

I think - I could be wrong.

[flyimp]

Punctuation is your friend.

 

Ok I got your point. But all this is not about Big Brother I think. You agree to the EULA, so be ready to get analysed.

 

2 points left:

 

- Can I still play the game in 2 years after ED or the support is gone? (Falcon 4)

 

- Security of your system.

 

Those 2 points have nothing to do with Big Brother.

 

i would definetley say yes to playing in 2 years and more. but security will be just like it is now some one will always find a way around things

[britgliderpilot]

2 points left:

 

- Can I still play the game in 2 years after ED or the support is gone? (Falcon 4)

 

- Security of your system.

 

Those 2 points have nothing to do with Big Brother.

 

The second point doesn't bother me so much - from what I've read, any additional security threat from StarForce is minimal to non-existent.

 

 

The first point does concern me a little - I very much hope that ED is around in the future, but if StarForce stop supporting the registration then we're in deep trouble . . . .

 

Not that it'll stop me buying - I'll at least get some use out of the software - but I'd like to know that someone somewhere has considered the problem.

[GGTharos]

2 points left:

 

- Can I still play the game in 2 years after ED or the support is gone? (Falcon 4)

 

- Security of your system.

 

Those 2 points have nothing to do with Big Brother.

 

The second point doesn't bother me so much - from what I've read, any additional security threat from StarForce is minimal to non-existent.

 

 

The first point does concern me a little - I very much hope that ED is around in the future, but if StarForce stop supporting the registration then we're in deep trouble . . . .

 

Not that it'll stop me buying - I'll at least get some use out of the software - but I'd like to know that someone somewhere has considered the problem.

 

Well, in the future (far future) everyone will probably have an IPv6 number assigned tot hem and the game registered to -that- ... until then, however, we have to deal with this bs which is, unfortunately, BS, but there's no other real way of doing this at this point.

 

For those of you who scream paranoia at those mentioning privacy issues: Don't. It's not funny, it's real, and it's been causing real people real problems ... the copy protection software can send ANY INFORMATION IT WANTS back to the server it's conencting to, and sicne its encrypted, you cannot possibly know what its doing. Your data is at the mercy of a company whose job is to protect someone else's data, not yours.

 

This is a serious issue that's dealt with every day in certain places, and not at all in others. You SHOULD be worried. No need to be pulling your hair out yet, but this isn't a pleasant trend.

[Dutch60]

One other quick question and I know this may be dangerous to ask, as this is a version of SF that does not check the legitimacy of a hardcopy CD that must be present in one of your CD/DVD drives but it uses the internet to register you in some way, would it not be easy to write some local service running on your local machine that would trick SF protection into thinking you are registering on the internet while in fact it is being registered by a crack service on the machine :?:

 

Check Dmut's post at the top of page 6 of this thead.

 

 

It sounds like it won't work unless you have the specific software that StarForce uses to do clever things to the keys . . . . but I can't confirm that.

 

Sorry but SF was cracked before just look at Soldiers Heroes of World War II :oops:

[Dutch60]

@britgliderpilot

 

alright. after all it's about flaming cliffs not flaming threads :wink: .

 

@Dutch60

 

AFAIK SF uses strong cryptography. That's why SF is so hard to crack. Not because it uses a system service. The executable is encrypted. Thus it needs to be decrypted by SF before it can be executed.

 

I hope this is not total nonsense :D .

 

No it's not total nonsense as I am a programmer (not a hacker) my self.

But I think for real hackers this is just the challenge. :cry:

[DayGlow]

I love the 'warez' experts that anounce copy protection doesn't work. Why? What research is that based on, or is it a casual observation? I have more confidence that a software company such as ED puts more thought and research into copy protection before they use it.

 

10 to 1 they have choosen StarForce because it actually works. So everyone that complains CP doesn't work should really show why it doesn't. Not through saying a illegial copy will be bought in Bangkock, but though actual market research they or someone else has done.

 

Quite simply I have more faith that ED knows what they are doing than some annoymous person on the interweb who proclaims they are a CP expert.

________

marijuana vaporizers

Edited January 22, 2011 by DayGlow

[Skywall23]

I love the 'warez' experts that anounce copy protection doesn't work. Why? What research is that based on, or is it a casual observation? I have more confidence that a software company such as ED puts more thought and research into copy protection before they use it.

 

10 to 1 they have choosen StarForce because it actually works. So everyone that complains CP doesn't work should really show why it doesn't. Not through saying a illegial copy will be bought in Bangkock, but though actual market research they or someone else has done.

 

Quite simply I have more faith that ED knows what they are doing than some annoymous person on the interweb who proclaims they are a CP expert.

 

2x

[coldcrew]

Here is what is going to happen and has happened with other games. The warez people are going to get the game with no starforce or protection and those of us who paid 35$ for it will be stuck with starforce and with the five activation limit. Reminds me of when I bought battlefield 1942 and when you tried it join a game it would spend 10 seconds checking the cd and by the time it was done the server you were trying to join would be full (probably with people who had the no cd crack!). It is a fact that honest people who buy are the ones that suffer through this crap. I'm still buying flaming cliffs tho, 35$ is a good price and I can afford it but I won't hesitate to use a no starforce crack if one becomes available.

[AnzacPT]

a lot of questions and confusion would be avoided if ED decides to make things clear.

 

it´s funny that just because some people don´t like an annoying system of CP to suddenly be relegated to parias and personas non gratas.

 

i´m all for copy protection... i can bet that contrary to many, many people here, i have every game i use, many bought, some given by software companies when i wrote reviews.

 

however, and this is just a comparison... ok? so bear with me...

 

after the 9/11, many countries passed anti-terrorist laws that permited law enforcement agencies with freedom and legitimacy to do a lot of things that they couldn´t do until then.

 

of course, there were immediatly cries of "privacy invasion", "constitutional rights", "big brother", etc... while the other side said that terrorism exists and needs to be fought. that those were just means to an end.

 

but thus the end justify every mean?

 

maybe we will never reach an universal agreement there...

 

it´s basically the same thing here...

 

ED has the right to protect their work. PERIOD. nothing against that. IMO, they are only creating more problems for themselves for not making a PUBLIC statement on how the system is really going to work so that the speculation ends here once and for all.

 

they are the ones getting hurt by scaring paying customers away for not being properly informed and spreading desinformation around the web. this forum is only a fraction of LOMAC players, but what starts here will be spread very quickly.

 

i still want to buy FC. i don´t like the system because i don´t believe that the end justifies every mean. as i have stated, if it was not ED and FC i would not even consider buying the game.

 

since it is, maybe i will buy it, but with a heavy heart instead of a smile in my face. i wish best of luck for ED with FC and everything else they have planned.

 

i also agree that Stormin´s posts have been less and less of what i used to see in Stormin and more provocative and with a "screw you, i coudn´t care less" attitude that i wasn´t used to see.

 

maybe if Stormin replied to the posts of people that had legitimate concerns and worries instead of keeping focused on "paranoias" and extremist posts that only kept speculation alive in this thread and similar others, things would be clearer than they are.

[Skywall23]

Is it me or the sh*t has hit the fan?

[Lipfert]

Bump....

 

Dmut or Wags,

 

Could you please comment on Contract Survivability? If ED or SF closes the doors a month from now, how are the customers protected?

 

Also, where is SF registered as a company and legally what district or State is Presiding?

 

If ED and SF have a contract dispute, could SF prevent users from using the software in future?

 

And could you please clarify the Manual Mode statement regarding Personal Information above? What constitutes Personal information and is my Hardware configuration not considered Personal Information?

 

Also, based on what is stated above, I would expect that SF will no longer be installing drivers disabling the use of ISO images on a local machine?

[AnzacPT]

Is it me or the sh*t has hit the fan?

 

i really don´t know what you were trying to say... :roll:

[Stormin]

I suppose it's too much to hope that Flaming Cliffs is close to release, then? Or was it just another rumor that the delay of the game this time was due to Starforce being dropped in favor of something less invasive?

 

While my purchasing decision isn't affected by this news, it does make me sad and angry that companies like this benefit from the harm and hurting of others. Parasites, no more, no less. That they've now devised something more invasive than simply Starforce or software activation alone, the combination of the two makes me sick. I wouldn't put it past the creators of Starforce to think that they might actually be aiding in piracy, or aiding in the cracking of their 'peer's' own copy protections. Then again, that's probably just paranoia. The only winners in the fight against piracy are the creators copy protection. Kind of like arms dealers and war, eh?

 

 

As there's no CD to be left in the drive, I'm still buying Flaming Cliffs. Here's hoping that the copy protection doesn't absorb more than 10% of the profit of each sale of Flaming Cliffs. I guess all sofware companies can't have in-house protection schemes like Ambrosia Software. I feel damn good about ordering their software, since they only lose the percentage that the credit card companies take off the top.

 

Wow. You're seeing a whole team of specialists for your paranoia, aren't you? :)

 

Stormin, you may be wrong on this one, the doode may be right. To minimise the losses to "piracy" a solid protection is used to prevent casual copying. Flaming Cliffs without SF will be available in Bangkok in no time for US$5 or so. Sales will probably be lost due to activation issue. The bloodsuckers from StarForce will collect their cut one way or the other. You may have experience or even education in IT area. However unless you are a psychiatrist and have properly examined Bet, it would be appreciated if you could refrain yourself from "diagnosing" people as mentally ill just because they voiced their opinion. I am dissapointed to read such a comment from a person of your calibre. :(

 

Please note the smile face included at the end of my comment. Lighten up pal.

[Stormin]

One more thing (especially to Stormin):

When you react on our comments or disappointment, think about what is FAIR and not what is legal. They are miles apart. You are a lot more intelligent person than to quote EULAs. Nobody reads EULAs. Why? Because they are nothing else but a bunch of excuses and a few promises which are usually broken.

 

If the legal use of a piece of software is more complicated than the illegal use of it, fewer people will buy it. Isn't it simple?

 

When I pay for a game, I do not want to be dependent on any further communication with the publisher. What if I temporarily move to another place with a different machine with no broadband connection? Am I not entitled to play the game then?

 

I still hope ED will offer another, fairer solution.

 

Actually, I find that by reading the EULA and understanding what they contain I am being intelligent.

[Stormin]

One more thing (especially to Stormin):

When you react on our comments or disappointment, think about what is FAIR and not what is legal. They are miles apart. You are a lot more intelligent person than to quote EULAs. Nobody reads EULAs. Why? Because they are nothing else but a bunch of excuses and a few promises which are usually broken.

 

If the legal use of a piece of software is more complicated than the illegal use of it, fewer people will buy it. Isn't it simple?

 

When I pay for a game, I do not want to be dependent on any further communication with the publisher. What if I temporarily move to another place with a different machine with no broadband connection? Am I not entitled to play the game then?

 

I still hope ED will offer another, fairer solution.

 

 

Yes . . . . . but "fair" would also be to not pirate games. If a significant section of the community refuses to play fair, and they are damaging ED by doing so . . . . . then I'm all for ED playing by the rules.

 

I can't blame ED for wanting to be paid for their work - can you?

 

 

All the information I've seen says that this copy protection will work reasonably smoothly - yes, we have to pay a bit of a price for it in terms of registering, but I find that infinitely preferable to ED shutting up shop.

 

Well said and a valid point. Where is the indignation for the act of piracy?