1.1 Copy Protection Update

[Lipfert]

Now that we have a Rep here from S-F, could I please have an answer to these important questions? These are critically important for any users in North America, who want to understand Privacy Legislation and Privacy Rights.

 

Dmut or Wags,

 

Could you please comment on Contract Survivability? If ED or SF closes the doors a month from now, how are the customers protected?

 

Also, where is SF registered as a company and legally what district or State is Presiding?

 

If ED and SF have a contract dispute, could SF prevent users from using the software in future?

 

And could you please clarify the Manual Mode statement regarding Personal Information above? What constitutes Personal information and is my Hardware configuration not considered Personal Information?

 

Also, based on what is stated above, I would expect that SF will no longer be installing drivers disabling the use of ISO images on a local machine?

[britgliderpilot]

ED hasn't really answered my questions concerning starforce and ED policies.

 

My question had to do with images, and Wags response to it was very general and I have to surmise what it going to happen.

 

I can only gather by this response that a unique code is created when first installing this software and is kept on the StarForce servers.

I'm somewhat ok with this, but am still reserved on this issue.

(ie..what happens when I'm not playing lockon, is it still running on my PC?)

 

So 5 installs are possible and that's it? I've had Falcon4 (amongst many) since it first came out and I've installed it multiple times on different hardware through out the years, and not once did I have to say...

"please, may I install this game, to which I've already paid my license for?"

 

What happens with this product 5 years from now? It's quite probable that I won't be playing this version then, but I do NOT believe that ED should

limit the amount of times I can install this program thu the years.

What happens when ED folds? (god forbid) or is bought out?

 

Very concerned in PA, USA.

 

 

I believe as long as the hardware is the same, Starforce will create the same key from it, so your registation won't change. As Matt said, you can reinstall as many times as you want, it's just when your hardware profile changes, then Starforce will require a new registration.

 

 

Five REGISTRATIONs, unlimited installs.

 

 

I too am still a little concerned as to what happens in the future - but some comments here indicate that it'll be possible to remove the StarForce protection with a patch should they go under. However, that requires ED to still be around to do it. See here:

 

 

What will happen if SF goes down (not that I wish such thing to happen) ? Who will support the protection since it's a driver and as every driver it needs continious support ????

 

In this improbable case, I think it would be possible to release the patch with other protection system or unprotected version.

[Guest Dlink]

ED hasn't really answered my questions concerning starforce and ED policies.

 

My question had to do with images, and Wags response to it was very general and I have to surmise what it going to happen.

 

I can only gather by this response that a unique code is created when first installing this software and is kept on the StarForce servers.

I'm somewhat ok with this, but am still reserved on this issue.

(ie..what happens when I'm not playing lockon, is it still running on my PC?)

 

So 5 installs are possible and that's it? I've had Falcon4 (amongst many) since it first came out and I've installed it multiple times on different hardware through out the years, and not once did I have to say...

"please, may I install this game, to which I've already paid my license for?"

 

What happens with this product 5 years from now? It's quite probable that I won't be playing this version then, but I do NOT believe that ED should

limit the amount of times I can install this program thu the years.

What happens when ED folds? (god forbid) or is bought out?

 

Very concerned in PA, USA.

 

My understanding is the following.

 

When you install the software, it checks certain pieces of hardware. It generates a number (hash), this number represents the pieces of hardware that are checked. If you were able to view the hash, you can't get back to what the hardware is, i.e , it is a one way number only. I will give an example of my understanding of how this works.

 

120gig HD add the number 7

128 Meg Video Card add the number 8

AMD CPU add the number 1

 

 

Now lets say you have a 120 gig Hd and AMD CPU, the has would be 8

 

Now lets say you have 128 meg video card but an Intel CPU and 60 Gig HD, your number would still be 8.

 

You are a hacker and you intercept the number 8 , you have no way of knowing which hardware the person has.

 

Now obviously this is a simple example and the number are probably much higher for each hardware type.

 

Now you might be asking. THEN how does SF know. It knows because when you register the software, the server stores the hash on its server. In our case, it is 8. A month later, you format your HD and you have to re-install FC. Again, it generates the hash, again since you haven't changed any hardware, the hash is still 8, when you register the software, the hash is sent and since it matches what you had before, it doesn't use a license because you are simply installing again on the same hardware.

 

From all this I must assume that included in your software download is a serial number as well. That way the serial number and the hash are linked together.

 

Now lets say you change your HD. When you re-install, a new hash is generated and compared, since it is no longer 8, one registration is used and you will have 4 left.

 

Again, I should point out this is a very simple example as there is every indication that 40% of your hardware must have changed in order to change the hash.

 

The biggest issue is "What happens when you run out of registrations". This is a big issue btw. WHY???

 

If getting new registrations is 'easy' then what stops someone from giving their copy to a friend, now both are changing their hardware and are using registrations. If getting new registrations is easy, then it will defeat the whole purpose of the copy protection, on the other hand if ED says, "Once you run out of registrations you must buy another serial" then it means you might have to buy this program several times over the next couple of years.

 

I am playing a wait and see and I want to see something in 'writing' about what happens.

[bflagg]

I understand the code sequence generation....I've really got no problem with that and understand it fully.

 

Obviously there is some bit routine on the local pc that checks for licensing validity after the code has been generated and sent to starforce, When does it check?

 

The biggest issue is "What happens when you run out of registrations". This is a big issue btw. WHY???

 

Because if I purchase this license I should not be limited to the

amount of times I wish to install it on any Single hardware platform of my choice over any period of time. (obviously only on MY ONE machine).

I've never heard of a expiration scheme set to licensing software.

 

The 5 times registration maximum would equate to exactly that.

There should as be a time difference watch between each registration to help circumvent the "5" limitation.

[britgliderpilot]

Because if I purchase this license I should not be limited to the amount of times I wish to install it on any Single hardware platform of my choice over any period of time. (obviously only on MY ONE machine).

I've never heard of a expiration scheme set to licensing software.

 

The 5 times registration maximum would equate to exactly that.

There should as be a time difference watch between each registration to help circumvent the "5" limitation.

 

Except it looks like you don't need to use a new registration when you reinstall on a single piece of hardware - you only need to use one registration for each hardware setup.

 

 

As such, there is NO limit to the number of times you can install it on a single hardware platform.

 

 

In any case, since ED are managing the downloads and payment from their own servers, it should be reasonably easy to prove that you've actually bought the game. From there, it should be easy for ED to actually give you a new set of activations for your key

 

Whether they will actually do anything like that, nobody's saying.

[Orao]

Because if I purchase this license I should not be limited to the amount of times I wish to install it on any Single hardware platform of my choice over any period of time. (obviously only on MY ONE machine).

I've never heard of a expiration scheme set to licensing software.

 

The 5 times registration maximum would equate to exactly that.

There should as be a time difference watch between each registration to help circumvent the "5" limitation.

 

Except it looks like you don't need to use a new registration when you reinstall on a single piece of hardware - you only need to use one registration for each hardware setup.

 

 

As such, there is NO limit to the number of times you can install it on a single hardware platform.

 

 

In any case, since ED are managing the downloads and payment from their own servers, it should be reasonably easy to prove that you've actually bought the game. From there, it should be easy for ED to actually give you a new set of activations for your key

 

Whether they will actually do anything like that, nobody's saying.

 

 

In that case why ED dosent generate unique key which is binded to the guy who bought the game. In case of leak it will be easy to know who spread the copy. The pirate can only crack the game if he/she has the complete software. Knowing that your name is binded to the serial should discourage buyers from giving out the game for free to a "friend".

 

However in order to prevent any leak of serials all information should be stored on the computer which is not connected to the internet.

[bflagg]

In that case why ED dosent generate unique key which is binded to the guy who bought the game. In case of leak it will be easy to know who spread the copy. The pirate can only crack the game if he/she has the complete software. Knowing that your name is binded to the serial should discourage buyers from giving out the game for free to a "friend".

 

However in order to prevent any leak of serials all information should be stored on the computer which is not connected to the internet.

 

This is one of the reasons why I've uninstalled half-life and the steam "solution". I think their implementation of copyright protection

is way above and beyond is the game is not worth it my book.

Because of this "tie down", I am not allowed to even give the game to someone else......(even If I notify steam/valve).

[bflagg]

Thanks all for responding, but I've yet to hear from ED on my concerns.

I fully understand the >= 40% hardware change, and yes, I can exceed the 5 count in a few years (3-5) time.

 

1. Longevity issues.

2. When does verification of "legality" take place AFTER one registers with starforce? When the game starts or the machine starts?

 

hopefully someone from ED will respond..

thank you for your time.

[schimmel]

AFAIK, you activate your game by sending a key (one of your 5) + a hash based on your hardware configuration and in return you get the final key (which maybe you will never see). The Lock On executable is encrypted on your computer. So every time the game starts, the SF service combines the hardware hash with the final key and tries to decrypt the executable. If it fails you're a pirate :P.

 

Consider this as pure speculation, but I think it's not all wrong.

 

Edit: BTW... don't know if anyone ever posted the link: http://www.star-force.com/index.phtml?category=48&type=5

 

Product Activation: From the End User’s Point of View

 

Having installed the product, the end user activates the application, either automatically via the Internet, or manually by phone or

fax. This requires him to enter an activation key in a field of the protection GUI. To obtain the activation key, the end user launches

the application and enters his license key. Together with the hardware code, generated automatically at the application’s startup, the

user’s license is forwarded to the activation server. After the license is successfully identified, the activation key is generated and

forwarded back to the end user’s PC. Alternatively, the end user can request an activation code by contacting the publishers help

desk or support staff if it is not possible to connect through the Internet.

 

 

Edit 2: So if your 5 keys are gone, you phone ED to get another 5 or whatever. SF activation is then used to activate those keys. So if ED is no more, you won't get anymore keys. If SF is no more, I guess that ED will change their CP.

 

There's even another scenario. Imagine SF stops to support this CP, f..ex. if it has been cracked in 2 years, and they take down their activation server, you're stuck. At that point, ED would have to patch their OLD product so that you can still play it. Either remove CP or buy (unlikely) a new one.

 

Of course I guess some will then make the effort to get the illegal crack somewhere :P.

[StarForce]

Now that we have a Rep here from S-F, could I please have an answer to these important questions? These are critically important for any users in North America, who want to understand Privacy Legislation and Privacy Rights.

 

Dmut or Wags,

 

Could you please comment on Contract Survivability? If ED or SF closes the doors a month from now, how are the customers protected?

See above.

Also, where is SF registered as a company and legally what district or State is Presiding?

Moscow, Russia. The company was founded in 1998.

If ED and SF have a contract dispute, could SF prevent users from using the software in future?

SF provides publishers with copy protection system, which decides whether to block the protected application startup or to allow it. In case if you change your hardware and there are no more activations left for your serial number, then yes, you would not be able to start the game unless you get new serial number.

And could you please clarify the Manual Mode statement regarding Personal Information above? What constitutes Personal information and is my Hardware configuration not considered Personal Information?

See above.

Also, based on what is stated above, I would expect that SF will no longer be installing drivers disabling the use of ISO images on a local machine?

There are versions with and without drivers. It is up to publisher to decide which one to use. The driver version is much more stronger protected against the crackers; therefore, it is usually used for highly expected games. Drivers don’t disable using of the ISO and also doesn't have any hidden functionality. If you have any technical question/problem, send a mail to support@star-force.com; we'll find a solution.

[169th_Moose]

Hello,

 

Yes, I can read Russian. I've checked the link, this vulnerability was fixed long time ago. You can find details here: http://www.star-force.com/index.phtml?id=606&type=5&add=1&category=200

The link is also present in the thread mentioned by you.

unfortunately, I still able to reproduce this issue with well-known "starforcemeat" exploit with new version of SF dated 2005,Feb.

my drivers versions:

sfdrv01.sys 1.27

prodrv06.sys 6.51

sfhlp01.sys 1.5

sfhlp02.sys 2.1

prohlp02.sys 2.51

sfsync02.sys 2.6

prosync1.sys 1.6

 

edit:

prodrv06.sys 6.51 -> 6.52

prohlp02.sys 2.51 -> 2.52

 

Starforce. You responded this issue to be resolve, but yet, seems Dmut is still able to replicate the issue....Its not a big deal for me, but Im curious of your responce to his reply.

 

Thanks

[wsoul2k]

Hello,

 

Yes, I can read Russian. I've checked the link, this vulnerability was fixed long time ago. You can find details here: http://www.star-force.com/index.phtml?id=606&type=5&add=1&category=200

The link is also present in the thread mentioned by you.

unfortunately, I still able to reproduce this issue with well-known "starforcemeat" exploit with new version of SF dated 2005,Feb.

my drivers versions:

sfdrv01.sys 1.27

prodrv06.sys 6.51

sfhlp01.sys 1.5

sfhlp02.sys 2.1

prohlp02.sys 2.51

sfsync02.sys 2.6

prosync1.sys 1.6

 

edit:

prodrv06.sys 6.51 -> 6.52

prohlp02.sys 2.51 -> 2.52

 

Starforce. You responded this issue to be resolve, but yet, seems Dmut is still able to replicate the issue....Its not a big deal for me, but Im curious of your responce to his reply.

 

Thanks

 

Hey starforce...came back here :D dont run away :D lol

[Witchking]

sheesh! guys lets just wait for the game to come out and this will probably be mentioned ...waht happpens after 5 registrations. I \don't see why ppl are still sooo concerned and unable to trust ED and starforce. :x :x

[Witchking]

I'm just wondering...

 

WHAT WOULD HAVE WE DONE IF ED would never have mentioned this.

 

comeon....did VALVE ask permission or opinion to use steam... did silent hunter 3 devs also ask permission to use starforce.

 

just be patient....wait for the game.....if u still HAVE PROOF that starforce is adding porn on ur computer then report. :P

[169th_Cobra]

just be patient....wait for the game.....if u still HAVE PROOF that starforce is adding porn on ur computer then report. :P

 

wOOOt !!!! free pron!!!

 

:mrgreen:

[Guest Dlink]

I'm just wondering...

 

WHAT WOULD HAVE WE DONE IF ED would never have mentioned this.

 

comeon....did VALVE ask permission or opinion to use steam... did silent hunter 3 devs also ask permission to use starforce.

 

just be patient....wait for the game.....if u still HAVE PROOF that starforce is adding porn on ur computer then report. :P

 

Good argument, you won me over..oh wait...

 

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-common-practice.html

 

This might explain your position better.

 

You basic argument is that "wait until you have purchased the product (unreturnable btw) and then hope that everything is ok. WOW.

[leafer]

lol...just can't resist can u, Dlink. You won't buy it, yet, you won't leave either. And don't give me that crap about you're still playing 1.02. You obviously didn't come here to discuss that. Now I wonder if you only check this thread. Just waiting for someone to defend ED then wham, Dlink goes for the kill.

 

Makes me wonder if you're the type that only gets tough on the net. Go out in the real world and you're quiet as hell. I've seen a lot of this type while living in LA. Tough talk cuz they think all Asians are puss then we step up and they go...hey man, you know who we are? We're with the Bloods! Give it a rest Dlink. Who are you trying to convince? Yourself? ED certainly isn't budging.

 

Nothing personal, Dlink.

 

Another thing that kind of bothering me now. All this hoopla and ED still insisting on using StarForce? Makes me wonder if ED is just stubborn and won't budge for anyone. I certainly know where they're coming from if that's the case. But you're in a business of selling nich game, so is it wise to stick to this software? Or is StarForce rally works?

 

Can someone give me names of couple of mainstream games that use SF and ill go check if they're pirated in my country. I bet they are, but I can take a two hour bus ride just to see. Just for you, ED.

 

I know this is probably too late because ED already decided on SF, but have any of you heard of DRM? Digital Rights Management

 

http://www.synccast.com/products_services/default.asp?page=drm

[Guest ruggbutt]

lol...just can't resist can u, Dlink. You won't buy it, yet, you won't leave either. And don't give me that crap about you're still playing 1.02. You obviously didn't come here to discuss that. Now I wonder if you only check this thread. Just waiting for someone to defend ED then wham, Dlink goes for the kill.

 

 

It's not just this forum. He does the same thing on SimHQ too. I'd bet that he's one of Bard's cronies from the diesimfanboi website. They live to hate.

[ZoomBoy27]

Another thing that kind of bothering me now. All this hoopla and ED still insisting on using StarForce? Makes me wonder if ED is just stubborn and won't budge for anyone. I certainly know where they're coming from if that's the case. But you're in a business of selling nich game, so is it wise to stick to this software? Or is StarForce rally works?

Beside the weighing of $$$ cost/benefits to keeping of StarForce, I think the Starforce choice is also a cultural response to piracy.

I read the game development industry web-sites and been involved as a beta-tester for a game-dev product. And a lot of companies are haunted by piracy:

1) the dev culture feels that piracy is a direct attack against their work - which it is. Many can take it personally.

2) devs have their own horror stories, like users have their horror stories about CP, about good products that don't make their money back due to piracy. And if they don't make their money back, it's then less likely the devs can continue being devs. Everything can be pirated - hasn't that what lots of users have said here, exactly, in this thread.

3) they have research that is more sophisticated than the usual X downloaded, pirated copies = $40.00 x X downloads = total loss figures. Piracy can have a real impact on margins.

4) and they have a responsibility to try - and it'd be a real gut-kick if it's heavily pirated and they did not at least try.

 

Users have said their piece about possibly refusing to buy with StarForce and I think ED is going to take a few lumps.

[KILSEK]

Hi all.

 

 

Good argument, you won me over..oh wait...

 

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-common-practice.html

 

This might explain your position better.

 

You basic argument is that "wait until you have purchased the product (unreturnable btw) and then hope that everything is ok. WOW.

 

NAH!!! My position is more star trek based!!! "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one". Many of us want this released asap(of course with acknowledgment from the dev's that it is complete) and that number -1 wants to debate the CP. More wins!!! Release now!!!

 

BTW, I take bigger risk everyday at the jobsite and spend more on dinner and drinks than this addon is gonna cost me. and FWIW, if this &&&& messes up my pc, I'll be here like everyone else raising up a stink. I bet that ED and SF want to get this right, and the only way to find out is to release the addon. If there are probs, they will be here to help. Release F.C. now so we can get bach to discussing real topics like how under-modelled the Aim-120 is. :P Thanks, -KILSEK

[Witchking]

I'm just wondering...

 

WHAT WOULD HAVE WE DONE IF ED would never have mentioned this.

 

comeon....did VALVE ask permission or opinion to use steam... did silent hunter 3 devs also ask permission to use starforce.

 

just be patient....wait for the game.....if u still HAVE PROOF that starforce is adding porn on ur computer then report. :P

 

Good argument, you won me over..oh wait...

 

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-common-practice.html

 

This might explain your position better.

 

You basic argument is that "wait until you have purchased the product (unreturnable btw) and then hope that everything is ok. WOW.

 

 

few statements from me.

 

DID ED ask you to buy their game.????

 

IF u sooo much hate starforce don't bother buying

 

We honest simmers are happy to buy THIS GAME and HAPPY TO know that this will result in LESS PIRACY.

 

huh!!!! hope that everything is ok.....THIS IS NOT LIKE A ARMED BOMB...to hope that everything is ok...its just a freakin GAME afterall....

 

this discussion is really getting annoying with ppl getting sooo concerned as if starforce is stealing all their material assets by ONE GAME...and as if that driver will """""" COMPUTER SELF DESTRUCT ACTIVATED"""""""...

 

my only appeal is ""for god's sake....let ED do their stuff...if u don't like it...then give them a full explaination...if its valid they will understand and probably u can sell ur key to another person""" all this RANTING is just pointless.

[Guest Dlink]

lol...just can't resist can u, Dlink. You won't buy it, yet, you won't leave either. And don't give me that crap about you're still playing 1.02. You obviously didn't come here to discuss that. Now I wonder if you only check this thread. Just waiting for someone to defend ED then wham, Dlink goes for the kill.

 

Makes me wonder if you're the type that only gets tough on the net. Go out in the real world and you're quiet as hell. I've seen a lot of this type while living in LA. Tough talk cuz they think all Asians are puss then we step up and they go...hey man, you know who we are? We're with the Bloods! Give it a rest Dlink. Who are you trying to convince? Yourself? ED certainly isn't budging.

 

Nothing personal, Dlink.

 

Another thing that kind of bothering me now. All this hoopla and ED still insisting on using StarForce? Makes me wonder if ED is just stubborn and won't budge for anyone. I certainly know where they're coming from if that's the case. But you're in a business of selling nich game, so is it wise to stick to this software? Or is StarForce rally works?

 

Can someone give me names of couple of mainstream games that use SF and ill go check if they're pirated in my country. I bet they are, but I can take a two hour bus ride just to see. Just for you, ED.

 

I know this is probably too late because ED already decided on SF, but have any of you heard of DRM? Digital Rights Management

 

http://www.synccast.com/products_services/default.asp?page=drm

 

 

Nothing personal. Thats good, I would hate to see a post of yours if you did get personal.

[Guest Dlink]

Hi all.

 

 

 

NAH!!! My position is more star trek based!!! "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one". Many of us want this released asap(of course with acknowledgment from the dev's that it is complete) and that number -1 wants to debate the CP. More wins!!! Release now!!!

 

BTW, I take bigger risk everyday at the jobsite and spend more on dinner and drinks than this addon is gonna cost me. and FWIW, if this &&&& messes up my pc, I'll be here like everyone else raising up a stink. I bet that ED and SF want to get this right, and the only way to find out is to release the addon. If there are probs, they will be here to help. Release F.C. now so we can get bach to discussing real topics like how under-modelled the Aim-120 is. :P Thanks, -KILSEK

 

NO, your positions is that since everyone is doing it, that makes it OK. Prime example from the website link I sent you to.

[Guest Dlink]

It's not just this forum. He does the same thing on SimHQ too. I'd bet that he's one of Bard's cronies from the diesimfanboi website. They live to hate.

 

 

You would lose that bet on both counts.

 

But I will say this, I would much rather be one of Bards cronies on the diesimfanboi website than a fanboi like you.

 

I don't live to hate. What I do live for is my wife and kids and unlike you , I can stand it when people denigrate "MY GAME", which is something that it appears you can't do.

[Guest ruggbutt]

There ya go, wrong as usual. Read the original thread here regarding copy protection, then go to SimHQ, then to UBI to read my response to that particular subject. If you can understand what you read then you'll see that I was critical of Starforce. I was pissed about installing drivers on my rig w/out me knowing.

 

I look at each particular subject and decide how I feel about it on a case by case basis. You on the other hand have posted almost entirely negatively regarding anything LOMAC. You're really beginning to bore me, son.