Thoughts on the new flight model changes?

[oldcrusty]

The only inflight refueling I've done after the recent update was from S3 (recovery task) at low alt, around 1500 ft orbit to simulate 'hawking'   so I have to put up with turns and level flight during refueling.  The main issue is as it's always been. The AI tanker uses simpler flt model then the Hornet.  When I bank the Hornet even a 2 or 3 deg. the lift vector is not straight up anymore and the VV will dip a tiny bit. When rolling level the VV will float up since I was compensating for less lift during a turn to stay level.  The tanker seems to be glued to its path. In a level flight if I only have to make minor line-up correction, I was 'advised' to use rudder instead of banking but to me it feels weird.  Anyways, it seems like the recent update introduced a bit more inertia from any movement. The dampening is nice though and I like it but... the inflight refueling takes a bit of getting used to. 

One thing about S3 tanker that changed couple of moths ago was the hose length.  It makes it necessary for me at least to stay a bit higher during refueling.  And of course the drogue/hose/probe interaction physics is on a list of eagerly awaited updates... some day.

As far as stick curves go yes,  mine are dumbed down too and it helps.  

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

41 minutes ago, wilbur81 said:

I've not run any detailed tests...

Neither have I. I have heard from mechanics that the probe door mechanism can get damaged if it's operated above 270 knots so next time I'll edit that mission and slow down the tanker, to see if it makes a difference.
In other aircraft (notably the F-16 and F-15E) different tanking airspeeds make a huge difference (for better or worse) in controllability of the jet, so I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case for the F-18 as well.

[Fulgrim]

On 2/25/2024 at 4:08 PM, wilbur81 said:

That's a neat chart... But those numbers are apparently nonsense...I'm assuming this was done with the Paddle Switch pulled (which doesn't count). The real corner speed for the Legacy Hornet is no where near 456 knots, nor is it in DCS if flown properly (without the paddle). If these tests/results were accurate for the Hornet with no paddle pulled, that would be an insult to all the work ED have put in on this flight model. Would love to see actual tracks of this guys tests.

Lol. What do you mean "paddle switch doesn't count"? Are you one of those guys that will scream "cheater" to anyone that dogfights with the paddle?

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

8 hours ago, Fulgrim said:

Lol. What do you mean "paddle switch doesn't count"? Are you one of those guys that will scream "cheater" to anyone that dogfights with the paddle?

I think most people who take DCS seriously - treat it as a simulator instead of a game - adhere to what’s called “the good housefather” principle (bonus pater familias): it means you treat what’s under your care responsibly and do your utmost to prevent unnecessary damage.

[BIGNEWY]

folks a reminder for all, treat each other with respect when replying, our rules can be found at the top of the forum. 

thank you 

[Cab]

9 hours ago, Fulgrim said:

Lol. What do you mean "paddle switch doesn't count"? Are you one of those guys that will scream "cheater" to anyone that dogfights with the paddle?

It doesn't count because using the paddle does not reflect the actual real-world performance of the jet. In other words, if you want to play a game, use the paddle. If you want to fly a simulator, don't. It really is as simple as that.

[EmJay22]

35 minutes ago, Cab said:

It doesn't count because using the paddle does not reflect the actual real-world performance of the jet. In other words, if you want to play a game, use the paddle. If you want to fly a simulator, don't. It really is as simple as that.

I am curious... what is this "paddle cheat?"  In my own controls setup, I only see disabling NWS and AutoPilot listed.

[EmJay22]

And I am also now wondering what the "trick" is to not destroying the rear landing gear.  I am assuming it's ensuring that your rate of decent doesn't exceed 700 fps?

For carrier landings having that weight below 33,000 lbs. What about airfields?

I am also having a heck of time after lowering gear and flaps (below 250 kts, of course) and then trimming how to avoid the "roller coaster effect"?  The nose wants to immediately rise (after a bit of a wait, actually... when I assume the plane is trying to decide just how to kill me). Once it goes up, no amount of pushing forward on the stick will bring it down. Have to resort to speed brake as the throttle is at idle.

I guess focusing completely on that vertical velocity and stroking the throttles constantly?

Edited February 27 by EmJay22

[Cab]

8 minutes ago, EmJay22 said:

I am curious... what is this "paddle cheat?"  In my own controls setup, I only see disabling NWS and AutoPilot listed.

It also temporarily overrides the g-limiter

It's only a "cheat" if there's a rule against using it. 

Edited February 27 by Cab

[Oceandar]

New FM ? I found it needs more trimming than before.

[EmJay22]

6 minutes ago, Oceandar said:

New FM ? I found it needs more trimming than before.

It does seem, that when running the "Ctrl Enter" "cheat" that shows where your controls are at, there is a less trimming needed. But I am still playing with it. ... flying around with gear and flaps down until I run out of gas since I am scared to land!

[Phantom711]

vor einer Stunde schrieb EmJay22:

What about airfields?

39000lbs. for a flared landing.

 

vor einer Stunde schrieb EmJay22:

I am assuming it's ensuring that your rate of decent doesn't exceed 700 fps?

If that was true, it would be VERY restrictive, especially for a carrier landing. I pretty much slammed it down as usual yesterday and the gear was still ok. Maybe touching down asymmetrically (left or right side first) breaks it.

[EmJay22]

39 minutes ago, Phantom711 said:

39000lbs. for a flared landing.

 

If that was true, it would be VERY restrictive, especially for a carrier landing. I pretty much slammed it down as usual yesterday and the gear was still ok. Maybe touching down asymmetrically (left or right side first) breaks it.

I think I meant 700 feet per minute. Not sure where I read that. Maybe I dreamed it

[Phantom711]

@EmJay22

Yes…that is what I interpreted into your statement anyways.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

3 hours ago, EmJay22 said:

what is this "paddle cheat?"

The FM enforces stricter limits for Navy Hornets than for land-based Hornets (Swiss, Kuwaiti, Finnish, Australian). Land-based Hornets can also use different software that can increase the G-limit from 7.5G to 9G. Because of the added stress on airframes for Naval Hornets, stricter operating limits mean you can use them longer than the intended 6000 flight hours.
The paddle switch is there for emergency/Oh crap use, say to prevent 'controlled flight into terrain' for example. Online airquakers also use it for dogfighting.
But if a RL paddle switch was pulled in a Navy Hornet, as far as I understand RL procedures would demand rigorous maintenance to check for damage - possibly even scrapping the jet. At the very least it would ground the jet for quite a while. Thus it is frowned upon among most DCS players as well.

[irq11]

1 hour ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

The FM enforces stricter limits for Navy Hornets than for land-based Hornets (Swiss, Kuwaiti, Finnish, Australian). Land-based Hornets can also use different software that can increase the G-limit from 7.5G to 9G. 

I don't know the veracity of the information in this link, but just in case, information about Swiss Hornet : https://qr.ae/psTfLI

[Cgjunk2]

I’m absolutely loving the feel of the new FM during aerobatic flight. And I’m also loving listening to the various podcasts interviewing different Hornet pilots and hearing how their experiences seem to match up so well with what I’ve been experiencing flying it.   Including all the different ways it can catch you out and kill you.  
 

I was listening to an interview with a Canadian RAF pilot (“Bones”) and he mentioned the trim going inactive at certain AOA regimes.   Perhaps that is partly to blame with some of the trim behavior being observed on the newest update?  That said, trim has tried to kill me on the last FM as well in various situations.  Bones himself seemed to think that some of the flight law was not universally well understood by all their pilots, leading to various accidents, so it’s not surprising if some if a flight sim pilot is surprised by what is or isn’t happening.
 

I’ve only had one instance of being caught completely by surprise, where I ran out of pitch authority just as I was about to land on the carrier.   It felt completely normal in the groove, and the vector was mostly stabilized in the bracket.  In the last few seconds,  I wanted to raise the nose slightly to adjust my descent.  I thought I had enough speed to effect a small pitch up, but I got no response even as a quickly increased to Full aft stick.   I dropped flat onto the deck, almost as if I was in a full aerodynamic stall.   That was interesting!   I have no idea if that’s a bug like the aileron input bug mentioned, or if that behavior was true to life.  It wouldn’t surprise me if it’s a realistic response to a mistake i may have made.  Truth be told, I’ve been having way too much fun throwing it around to devote time to do “serious” flight testing lol.  

I’m sure the experts here and at ED will identify and sort out any buggy aspects with a little time but in the meantime, I’m having a blast.  The Hornet seems to have a more “real” feeling to how it moves in the air that makes it very satisfying to fly.  

 

Edited February 28 by Cgjunk2

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

8 hours ago, Cgjunk2 said:

The Hornet seems to have a more “real” feeling to how it moves in the air that makes it very satisfying to fly.

Yes, I agree

[EmJay22]

A couple more observations regarding the "new" Hornet..

Brakes... it has been already noted that they are stronger and it takes more care when landing and stopping.  During take off, you can hold the brakes and run up the throttle to almost full Mil power, though I have not done detailed testing. 

Stalls --  With the old hornet, there have been times when I got stuck... usually inverted.. in level "flight" because I was messing around while seeing how much I could screw it up... And then no matter what I did to power or controls, I would just slowly fall down and crash.. Yes, I know this is not recommended!! 

This doesn't seem to happen now and eventually the nose will point itself to the ground and the plane then builds up speed. 

 

[TheFreshPrince]

I didn't fly for a month and came back to the F-18 today, it's such a different jet. Very agile at low speeds, but you can also use it at altitude now.

Still a bit tough to get the right speed in a dogfight as it either accelerates dramatically or slows down to a stall in only a 3G turn. You can pull constant 10G with paddle switch at 600kn and you'll still accelerate. Don't know the real jet, but seems a bit too much. But it's also possible now to get to nearly Mach2 when dropping from 40k ft. altitude from max speed (about Mach 1.8), which is nice And you can get to about Mach 1.4 above the ground, which seems faster than before. All of this tested on an empty jet with no pylons. When I started with the F-18 it was a slow duck, nothing of that is left anymore.

[Chaffee]

On 2/26/2024 at 7:28 AM, Rudel_chw said:

time is too precious to waste wondering about this kind of user, I just add them to the ignore list so as not to feed them.

Well said. Arguing with someone already engaging in a logical fallacy (in this case, exceptional fallacy), is pointless.

On 2/27/2024 at 4:56 AM, EmJay22 said:

And I am also now wondering what the "trick" is to not destroying the rear landing gear.  I am assuming it's ensuring that your rate of decent doesn't exceed 700 fps?

 

I've landed perfectly well at 850

Edited February 28 by Chaffee

[OldFlyer]

The F18 is my favourite jet and this FM update just reaffirms that. Feels more lively. Thanks ED, great work 

[Scotch75]

Yes, the Hornet is an absolute dream to fly. Well done to the Devs. I haven't yet had any landing gear issues, even trapping on the carrier. However, is anyone noticing a sudden pitch up at the ramp? It is quite abrupt to the point where I feel I have to push forward after being on-speed all the way. Unless it is the burble, but I did not experience any significant down draught prior to the ramp.

Cheers!


Sent from my SM-G998B using Tapatalk

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

There are some very odd pitch-up or pitch-down issues yes depending on what you are doing when you deploy flaps, but I haven't had any issues at the ramp. Quite the opposite: because of the faster engine spool-up/down times I find the burble less of an issue than it has been...

[Thorns]

Is there a way in setup to make the Trim operation move more degrees when hitting the trim button...seems you have to hit the trim button a lot to get where you need it? Asking for a friend...lol. Thanks...