Thoughts on the new flight model changes?

[HWasp]

1 hour ago, wilbur81 said:

That's a neat chart... But those numbers are apparently nonsense...I'm assuming this was done with the Paddle Switch pulled (which doesn't count). The real corner speed for the Legacy Hornet is no where near 456 knots, nor is it in DCS if flown properly (without the paddle). If these tests/results were accurate for the Hornet with no paddle pulled, that would be an insult to all the work ED have put in on this flight model. Would love to see actual tracks of this guys tests.

 

Maybe you should look at the actual diagram instead of just reading the numbers only, then you could observe, that at the 7.5g limit the "normal" speed for max STR is around Mach 0.6, which is close to 400 kts and around 20,6-7 dps.

Edited February 25 by HWasp

[HWasp]

I love some aspects of the update, the general handling, the new nose authority, but there are aspects of the performance, that are very difficult to believe. The way, it can pull though the vertical at low speed at 40+ degrees of AoA, and the things it can do inverted.... These things should be looked at I think.

Here is another very safe demo flight:

 

newF18_50%demo.trk

[Vee.A]

On 2/24/2024 at 8:39 AM, Mandellorian said:

I`m definitely in the undercarriage is now made of tool picks crowd.I`ve snapped the LH U/C 5 times in a clean hornet with 3K fuel and a VSI as low as 300FPS..something isn`t right.

I`ve also noticed you can massively exceed the G-Limit on the FCS without hitting the paddle switch.

Routinely seeing over 8G without the paddle being pulled regardless of payload.

 

I've noticed this as well. After the update you can peak at 12G by yanking the stick at high speed WITHOUT the paddle switch, though it's still doing something since you can pull more G for much longer with the paddle switch. I guess it's possible that the FCS could get "overwhelmed" allowing the plane to briefly over G, but I don't really know. It would be nice if someone knowledgeable could chime in on this

dcs.log OverG.trk

[Tholozor]

31 minutes ago, Vee.A said:

I've noticed this as well. After the update you can peak at 12G by yanking the stick at high speed WITHOUT the paddle switch, though it's still doing something since you can pull more G for much longer with the paddle switch. I guess it's possible that the FCS could get "overwhelmed" allowing the plane to briefly over G, but I don't really know. It would be nice if someone knowledgeable could chime in on this

G-overshoot is entirely possible. The FCS may not be able to keep pace with rapid pilot inputs.

[Vee.A]

1 hour ago, Tholozor said:

G-overshoot is entirely possible. The FCS may not be able to keep pace with rapid pilot inputs.

It certainly is a possibility, though I've also noticed with further testing that even with firm but gentle inputs it'll over G a little

[Slick_441]

On 2/23/2024 at 9:33 AM, Nealius said:

Going gear/flaps down at 230kts I noticed pitch down moment with very minimal ballooning, which feels normal to me comparing to other aircrafts' behavior.

 

On 2/24/2024 at 11:59 AM, Davee said:

By any chance were you coming out of AP just before that?  For me, I notice the "exteme" nose up if I have been in AP, disconnected, then started my approach with gear and flaps and trimming to onspeed around 220 knots. Need to fight it to keep nose level. 

No AP used during the two test flights

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

2 hours ago, HWasp said:

very difficult to believe

Have you ever seen an F-18 airshow demo in real life? If not, try to get the opportunity at your earliest convenience.
It is jaw-dropping what that thing can do!

Edited February 25 by Raven (Elysian Angel)
typo

[oldcrusty]

1 hour ago, Vee.A said:

It certainly is a possibility, though I've also noticed with further testing that even with firm but gentle inputs it'll over G a little

Damn it, I think I over G'd a tiddly bit

 

[Spark_23]

Still taking off with folded wings and without catapult

Edited February 26 by Spark_23

[Chaffee]

3 hours ago, Spark_23 said:

Still takes off with folded wings and without catapult

And hits the water soon after, right?

[HWasp]

10 hours ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Have you ever seen an F-18 airshow demo in real life? If not, try to get the opportunity at your earliest convenience.
It is jaw-dropping what that thing can do!

 

Yes, I've seen many. That's one of the reasons I never liked the old FM.

[Spark_23]

hace 7 horas, Chaffee dijo:

And hits the water soon after, right?

Not, fly normally

[Smashy]

12 hours ago, Spark_23 said:

Still taking off with folded wings and without catapult

 

Serious question:  why do people like you take the time and energy to look for problems and then make snarky comments in a way that is clearly non-constructive when there are so many things about this game to learn and enjoy?  It's not as if you're conducting methodical tests to provide useful feedback to ED.  Instead, it's almost as if you make a conscious effort to find faults and not have any fun.  Life's too short for that and I truly wonder what motivates posts like this.

[Rudel_chw]

29 minutes ago, Smashy said:

I truly wonder what motivates posts like this.

time is too precious to waste wondering about this kind of user, I just add them to the ignore list so as not to feed them.

[Fergi19]

After the update, my pitch control is terrible for A2A refueling.  The elevator seems to be very jerky causing huge pilot induced oscillations when trying to plug the basket.  I was fairly decent at getting gas before the update, now it is downright frustrating.  This is on the canned mission for CASE 1 landings and hitting the S3 at 300 kts and 15,000’.

I used to have curves set at 25, now it takes at least 50 for the pitch just to get it smooth enough to have a chance.  

Anyone else?

[jack333]

Hi everyone, I have noticed a certain difference when taking off from the aircraft carrier, when leaving the catapult I previously pulled the lever to rise and the plane went up, now I have to wait a little to pull the lever because if I pull the plane it stays straight and falls into the sea, it only happens to me, is it my joistyck?

 

[Kurnass1977]

25 minuti fa, Fergi19 ha scritto:

After the update, my pitch control is terrible for A2A refueling.  The elevator seems to be very jerky causing huge pilot induced oscillations when trying to plug the basket.  I was fairly decent at getting gas before the update, now it is downright frustrating.  This is on the canned mission for CASE 1 landings and hitting the S3 at 300 kts and 15,000’.

I used to have curves set at 25, now it takes at least 50 for the pitch just to get it smooth enough to have a chance.  

Anyone else?

I swear blood to stay in the basket of the S-3 230 Kts at 18K and the PIO is terrible,just a little touch to the stick and start with th e dance...I'm quite noob , but before the update I stay on the basket without great problem. Litlle better with the Strato and the Herk

[rob10]

32 minutes ago, Fergi19 said:

After the update, my pitch control is terrible for A2A refueling.  The elevator seems to be very jerky causing huge pilot induced oscillations when trying to plug the basket.  I was fairly decent at getting gas before the update, now it is downright frustrating.  This is on the canned mission for CASE 1 landings and hitting the S3 at 300 kts and 15,000’.

I used to have curves set at 25, now it takes at least 50 for the pitch just to get it smooth enough to have a chance.  

Anyone else?

Stick is a bit more sensitive now so will take some relearning, but it doesn't have the "bounce back" it used to so should be easier once you get used to it.

[Raisuli]

23 minutes ago, rob10 said:

Stick is a bit more sensitive now so will take some relearning, but it doesn't have the "bounce back" it used to so should be easier once you get used to it.

Lots of re-learning.  Originally I thought it was me, then I remembered the FM changes; it's like a completely new airplane.  Not qualified to judge 'realism', but certainly different and will take a bit of practice to do the things I normally do automagically.  Had some odd issues over the last few weeks (predating the update) and finally got around to a slow rebuild last night, so I'll take it up again and work on the new feel.

Overall I think I'm going to like it.  I really like the lack of ballistic flap trajectory, but that doesn't stop the airplane from going places I didn't intend when I'm trying to stay on-speed.  PEBJAC, I'm sure, and it'll get ironed out.  Doesn't help that I'm natually ham-fisted; PIO is my super power.

[KLaFaille]

3 hours ago, Fergi19 said:

After the update, my pitch control is terrible for A2A refueling.  The elevator seems to be very jerky causing huge pilot induced oscillations when trying to plug the basket.  I was fairly decent at getting gas before the update, now it is downright frustrating.  This is on the canned mission for CASE 1 landings and hitting the S3 at 300 kts and 15,000’.

I used to have curves set at 25, now it takes at least 50 for the pitch just to get it smooth enough to have a chance.  

Anyone else?

Same experience here. Pre-update, 95% of the time I could catch the basket first try and stay connected for the whole refuel without much trouble. First couple attempts after the update were like being back at square one trying to learn it again. Zoomed in on the HUD you see very slight movement fairly easily and watching the pitch seems almost "notchy" to me as if the attitude of the jet is changing in tiny steps, not smooth motion.  Feels like the jet over corrects more now than it did pre-update for the same given amount of stick deflection.  I have my curves at 9 I think and a deadzone of 1, so the familiarity with the old model at that sort of sensitivity definitely means it's going to take a bit of time to retrain the muscle memory and re-learn to stay ahead of the jet with the new model.

Edited February 26 by KLaFaille
more words

[plott1964]

From NATOPS:

G overshoot can occur under any flight conditions. G should be continuously monitored. Under the following conditions, g should be carefully monitored:
• G-LIM 7.5 g caution displayed
• Positive g with gross weight over 44,000 pounds
• Fuel less than 3,300 pounds
• Negative g with gross weight over 32,357 pounds
• MC1 failure

Correct stabilator trim is critical to aircraft hands off fly-away performance. Stabilator trim affects initial pitch rate and determines AOA capture. A low trim setting both lowers the initial pitch rate below optimum and causes the aircraft to fly away in a flatter attitude due to a lower than optimum AOA capture. This results in degraded climb performance after launch. A higher than recommended trim setting can cause excessive AOA overshoots which can lead to loss of lateral directional control when loaded with asymmetric stores, or in a single engine emergency.

[Kisi]

3 hours ago, Fergi19 said:

After the update, my pitch control is terrible for A2A refueling.  The elevator seems to be very jerky causing huge pilot induced oscillations when trying to plug the basket.  I was fairly decent at getting gas before the update, now it is downright frustrating.  This is on the canned mission for CASE 1 landings and hitting the S3 at 300 kts and 15,000’.

I used to have curves set at 25, now it takes at least 50 for the pitch just to get it smooth enough to have a chance.  

Anyone else?

I have the same issue. While testing, I came to conclusion that my stick input is converted to nose action with a little delay, thus my initial tendency to PIO.  Don't know if this delay is correct as is, or a bug, but I have to relearn all the close formation flying and tanker operations.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

3 hours ago, Fergi19 said:

Anyone else?

Yes: I ran the exact same mission earlier today and went for the tanker as well after a few landings. I had more PIO than usual too.

[wilbur81]

38 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Yes: I ran the exact same mission earlier today and went for the tanker as well after a few landings. I had more PIO than usual too.

I've not run any detailed tests...but it is interesting to me the ratio of stick deflection to G that we now have. If you bring up the controls indicator, you can pull the stick back a small fraction of the total stick travel and end up with something like 35-50% of the available G indicated on the FCS page. That is without any curves or dead zones on a TM Warthog for me. Not sure if this is related to the PIO's you're referring to, but it does seem like the G/Pitch onset is disproportionate to total stick travel... at least from how it was before.

Edited February 26 by wilbur81

[Spark_23]

 

hace 7 horas, Smashy dijo:

Serious question:  why do people like you take the time and energy to look for problems and then make snarky comments in a way that is clearly non-constructive when there are so many things about this game to learn and enjoy?  It's not as if you're conducting methodical tests to provide useful feedback to ED.  Instead, it's almost as if you make a conscious effort to find faults and not have any fun.  Life's too short for that and I truly wonder what motivates posts like this.

 

hace 7 horas, Rudel_chw dijo:

time is too precious to waste wondering about this kind of user, I just add them to the ignore list so as not to feed them.

I didn't waste my time and energy finding faults to make sarcastic comments, you are wasting your time and energy judging someone else, making someone look bad by saying "this kind of user" "not feed them" you should be ashamed to judge someone without knowing their intentions or knowing them.
No I didn't waste my time doing methodical tests, I wasted days without anyone helping me in others social networks with a problem unrelated to this topic, and I found this thread, I found this site that reminded me of that visible behaviour that you don't need to spend the time to see. I found it curious that such behaviour was still occurring.

I don't see why saying that I still see how it is possible to take off without a catapult or with folded wings makes you attack and ridicule me, why do you act like that? Likewise, I haven't disrespected anyone, unlike you.

My comment would simply have stayed there, I didn't come here to seek controversy, attention or to annoy anyone. Don't worry, you're not going to feed me, go back to the subject of this thread, I just wanted to clarify things, since you wondered why I made my comment and judged me.

For my part and without doing much research, my sensations have been a more natural flight, after years without flying I was able to land on the carrier on the second attempt, something that was very difficult for me before.