not planned Easy/Medium/Hard/Realistic refueling options.

[PhantomHans]

These are a vitally needed difficulty option.  Although everyone else here might be a real true ace pilot naval aviator blocked from becoming the next Maverick only by, you know, not actually flying anything, I am not skilled enough, or patient enough, to take on air to air refueling without blowing the tanker out of the sky.

Perhaps it's sad that I didn't buy DCS to learn this skill, but it's an area I would like some assistance with until I'm able to take it myself.  I would say that it's a vital frustration reduction setting that is directly linked to my credit card and my ability to pry it from my wallet in the future.

This was an option in the old days of LOMAC, it should be an option now.  Maybe it could be squeezed in right next to the ability to take no damage, or have unlimited weapons, or jump between the front and back seat of an F-14 in mid flight instantly, or any of those other horrible realism breaking options.

Edited April 9 by PhantomHans

[freehand]

You was involved in a thread regarding refuelling a while ago it was closed so why start another.

[PawlaczGMD]

Such options are not needed, and do not belong in the sim. What's the point of playing a sim if that's the attitude? How would it even work, like a game mode flight model?

These other options you mention are more for debugging/training/practice/having fun. 

Set up invulnerability for you and the tanker, and learn how to refuel? It took me an hour or two, and then it just clicked.

If you're playing SP, just don't use scenarios with refueling if you don't want to do it.

If you're playing a campaign, it's an integral part of the experience to actually do the procedures and tasks.

If you're playing MP, why would you be granted an advantage over other players?

[scoobie]

Personally I don't have a problem with people asking this, BUT... just to point out that those "horrible realism-breaking options" are NOT the same, as you seem to suggest. It's a "narration".

Unlimited ammo and no damage options are didactic aids, they help you LEARN something. They should be used with a little bit of mindfulness, otherwise they may teach you bad habbits, but still - they are basically didactic aids.
On the other hand, easy AAR, such that - for example - you fly into a mile-wide "bubble" around the tanker and fuel gets teleported to your tanks (can't remember AAR in LOMAC), is not a didactic aid. It's the opposite - prevents you from learning.

Is it bad that people keep asking for easy AAR? I don't know. Honestly, I don't care, either. I know they're making themselves a disfavour (by not learning AAR), but it's their business what they do, not mine.
Would I prefer ED to focus on other subjects that I consider a lot more important, such as bug-fixing etc., instead of getting "distracted" by easy AAR? Yes, I would.

[PhantomHans]

50 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

Such options are not needed, and do not belong in the sim. What's the point of playing a sim if that's the attitude? How would it even work, like a game mode flight model?

These other options you mention are more for debugging/training/practice/having fun. 

Set up invulnerability for you and the tanker, and learn how to refuel? It took me an hour or two, and then it just clicked.

If you're playing SP, just don't use scenarios with refueling if you don't want to do it.

If you're playing a campaign, it's an integral part of the experience to actually do the procedures and tasks.

If you're playing MP, why would you be granted an advantage over other players?

Excuse me but, what?  So setting yourself to be invulnerable with unlimited fuel and ammo is for debugging/training/practice/having fun, but making air to air refueling easier completely obliterates the point of the sim?

Could it be that making air to air refueling less difficult could also be for debugging/training/practice/having fun?  Maybe I have a full time job that can keep me at work 80 hours on a bad week and I want to come home and fly a mission without finding out AAR is part of it and it's going to make me angry or frustrated?
 

1 hour ago, freehand said:

You was involved in a thread regarding refuelling a while ago it was closed so why start another.

Because it has annoyed me again, and I will consider ED's response before purchasing products from them in the future.

24 minutes ago, scoobie said:

On the other hand, easy AAR, such that - for example - you fly into a mile-wide "bubble" around the tanker and fuel gets teleported to your tanks (can't remember AAR in LOMAC), is not a didactic aid. It's the opposite - prevents you from learning.

I'm thinking more like two different systems.

For probe and drogue, a difficulty option to make the contact area of the drogue larger, 2x, 4x, 6x, 8x, 12x, 16x, etc.  If you "miss" the basket, you should get a grade like "Missed: Low Left" or "Missed: High Right" to tell you how you goofed up, and the basket will be guided onto your probe similar to how aircraft that connect to catapults misaligned are magically guided into alignment before launch.  A little nudge to put things into place.  You'll have to hold formation to keep taking fuel from that point.

For boom and receptacle type, options like "Realistic", "Hard", "Medium", "Easy", "Arcade".  At the "Realistic" setting, it works how it works now.  At "Arcade", when you get cleared for contact from pre-contact, the AI will temporarily take control of your jet, fly to contact, and take fuel.  When tanks are full, the AI will release control, and you'll have to get out of the contact position and move on with the flight.

"Easy", "Medium", and "Hard" options would guide the player aircraft into position similar to how misaligned aircraft are handled on catapults, although with less and less force at each setting.  You are in control, but if you're drifting too low you'll get a "push" up to help you stay in position, or if you're going too slow a little "push" foreword to keep you on the probe.

Edit: Of course both of these would be options the server or mission creator could "enforce" a maximum value for.  If they decide that a basket 2x larger is plenty help, Realistic is easy enough to fill up an F-16, then that's all you can get.  If they leave it wide open, then you can have yours set for full real, while a less skilled pilot flying with you can have some frustration free fun by getting to have a larger basket or a helping hand nudge him into position.

Edited April 9 by PhantomHans

[PawlaczGMD]

Unlimited fuel/ammo/inv can be used to set up prolonged practice dogfights to get better at dogfighting, or to replenish your bombs to get better at bombing, etc, without wasting time to reset the mission.

Easy refueling will not help you learn how to refuel, quite the opposite, it will teach you bad habits, and give an easy out to avoid learning it.

Not to mention what you propose is a complete waste of dev time, while we have so many pressing issues that we eagerly await.

Edited April 9 by PawlaczGMD

[freehand]

2 minutes ago, PhantomHans said:

Because it has annoyed me again, and I will consider ED's response before purchasing products from them in the future.

You will not purchase another product because you cannot refuel lol ok. 

[PhantomHans]

2 minutes ago, freehand said:

You will not purchase another product because you cannot refuel lol ok. 

I think it would be more accurate to say that I said:

7 minutes ago, PhantomHans said:

I will consider ED's response before purchasing products from them in the future.

 

 

[Tiger-II]

IMHO, it is worth the effort to learn to AAR. Being able to hook the basket quickly once you know how is quite exhilerating.

Some aircraft are definitely easier than others. The F-18 is probably the easier as the probe is close to the centerline and out in front of you. Tomcat is similar.

Harrier is a total PITA as it is to the side of you, and VR would be a great help here.

JF-17 is between the two; it is more to the side and slightly aft of the F-18, but still in front, so seeing isn't so much the problem as learning how to align it.

I found a good way to do it is to fly slightly sideways at it, so the drogue is always at the same spot on the canopy as I move towards it. I start by flying parallel with the tanker, but with a very slight overtake. I then don't touch the throttle, but adjust my lateral closure rate to keep the basket where it needs to be. At some point, the basket and probe connect, then I just need to focus on maintaining position.

Of course, this requires practice. It took me about an hour before I "got it", but now I can AAR pretty quickly even if I haven't flown for a while.

After 5 months away from the sim, the time between these two screenshots is 39 seconds. First attempt.

nullnull

[scoobie]

Oh, boy... so you, PhantomHans, want the whole set of functionalities, multiple elaborate AAR help options etc.
Look, unlimited ammo was relatively straightforward to add, because planes must be rearmed on the ground via the Rearm/Refuel window. Once you program that, you can sort of use the same code to "rearm" in flight. You just have to check when a particular pylon gets empty etc. and trigger "automatic rearm" with the same type of weapon. Not too much work.
No damage is virtually for free - you keep your code for taking damage as it is and either go around it, if no damage option is on, or do something similar.

Now, your AAR options seem laborious to program! And for what purpose? You think such options will get you where you want to get, but you really ignore the most important fact that AAR (or formation flying) is a MOTOR SKILL and there's one and one only method to aquire motor skills - regular repetition until it clicks. Not because I say so, but because that's how brains work (the cerebellum in particular). Your IQ doesn't matter here, you may be as smart as Stephen Hawking if you like - it doesn't matter. You just need as many repetitions as it takes, divided into short sessions (until you can't cope with frustration). If you're young, maybe 3 sessions in total. For me it took some 10 days, I think! Yeah, it felt awful, terrible, but I kept doing it for half an hour a day (or 2 or 3 sessions on a free day - morning, mid-day, evening), day by day, no "holidays", no excuses, shut up and try again next day.
And then... it just clicked. Pretty suddenly, by the way. Problem solved.
Nobody's a newbie forever, it's always a transitional state, temporary phase. And you don't become a newbie ever again - that's permanent. Yes, you need refreshing every now and then, but it's never nearly as hard as the first time. That's the PROVEN way to get there, while your AAR helping options are, so far, imaginary ways to get there, you IMAGINE they will help you. I doubt they're worth the time to implement. If it was a simple "bubble", I wouldn't mind, beacuse it would probably take relatively little time for a dev to implement it. But you want the whole slew of elaborate crutches, while in reality... you will still need to practice regularly until it clicks. If you think you can somehow "trick" it, learn it without that painful boring repetitions, you may as well insist you can learn to see infrared with own eyes or hear ultrasound with own ears. It's the brain, you can't do anything to "work around" it.

You might think people are just vicious/malicious/malevolent or something, because they've gone through this s**t and now they want you to suffer just as they did. No. Not at all Those people just know how it works and they want you to stop dreaming, wasting time, and just follow the only known path to get there. You may disagree, but, well, in that case you're stuck where you are.

I learnt AAR using A-10C (because I wanted to "master" the Hawg), but later I discovered that probably the easiest plane to AAR is the Hornet.

 

Edited April 9 by scoobie

[PhantomHans]

Yhea I would have to say I certainly do think this community is pretty darn toxic!

[scoobie]

Go figure... I find this community friendly and - more importantly - amazingly helpful. Got a bunch of spot-on pieces of advice here countless times. Including AAR - someone said "dude, it's like learning the piano" (of course the piano is way harder than AAR). I followed, it worked.

Well, as many people as many opinions, I guess.

Edited April 9 by scoobie

[Nevyn]

The

1 hour ago, PhantomHans said:

Yhea I would have to say I certainly do think this community is pretty darn toxic!

Never used to be this way, used to be such a great place, once, full of knowledge and learning and spirited debate, those days are long over.

 

Although I don't agree that you need an easy AAR, the devs have bigger fish to fry, I would prefer they concentrate on the mydrid of issues the application has.

 

PawlaczGMD -- **Easy refueling will not help you learn how to refuel, quite the opposite, it will teach you bad habits.**

This is something you need to understand OP, easy does help anyone.

 

Edited April 9 by Nevyn

[Minsky]

I don't think we need multiple difficulty settings. But having something akin to the 'easy comms' toggle would help not only players, but also content creators, who must rely on various walkarounds to make their AAR missions more accessible.

The idea is simple. By ticking a box in either the DCS settings or in the mission editor, and then positioning the aircraft inside a fairly large box behind the tanker, the player will automatically begin receiving fuel.

Contacting the tanker or extending the probe is not required. Although the player is free to try plugging in and improve their skills while waiting for refueling to complete.

[freehand]

2 hours ago, PhantomHans said:

Yhea I would have to say I certainly do think this community is pretty darn toxic!

Well yea I understand what you are saying for sure it is a shame but to fair you did start your post with some sarcasm anyhow for me the refuelling thing is a like a standard test in dcs lol silly I know but fun subject I have been part of DCS from early days and playing flight sims from spectrum,amiga,PC e.t.c still own most of big box titles and I still can not refuel 

[MAXsenna]

Yhea I would have to say I certainly do think this community is pretty darn toxic!

When did the forum become toxic due to advice and disagreement? What's said above is correct. Helpers become crutches. That's just a fact. One needs to put in the effort until it clicks. You have to decide that you really want to master the skill. If you don't, you won't. Simple as that.
The F/A-18C is not the easiest one though. It's the Su-33 by far. Lock up the tanker with IRST, and you can easily match the speed. The pod will also tell you immediately when you're gaining, lagging or just perfect. It even has a special refuelling mode, that I personally don't like, while others may. VoiceAttack/VAICOM can also help with comms to get rid of clicking the radio menu.
I'm not against an "easy mode", while I think all your different suggestions will bring nothing but extra work for the devs. Minsky's idea is enough.
Cheers!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[SharpeXB]

ED has already said this isn’t planned. 

 

[lmp]

While I'm not convinced we need an outright easy AAR mode, I think DCS could do a much better job at teaching AAR and making it somewhat more accessible. We have an overlay for the IFLOLS, why not for the PDL? We have an alignment overlay for sling loading, why not for probe and drogue refueling? Learning to hit the basket is a lot easier when you actually know what you're doing wrong.

Why don't we have proper tutorials for all aircraft? Each and every module teaches you how to take off and land, why not how to refuel? We typically get one single mission or maybe an instant action mission (no consistency!) without any guidance. It should be a progression, from formation flying, through very simple AAR scenarios to refueling in challenging conditions (at night, in a heavy aircraft etc.). With the voice of Wags guiding you through the entire process, giving you good information. Right now the AAR learning process is digging through forums and YouTube for advice, half of which is dubious, and trying with practically no feedback until it somehow clicks. We can do better.

 

[SharpeXB]

15 minutes ago, lmp said:

We have an overlay for the IFLOLS, why not for the PDL? We have an alignment overlay for sling loading, why not for probe and drogue refueling? Learning to hit the basket is a lot easier when you actually know what you're doing wrong.

You don’t really need an overlay for something you can see right in front of you. The IFLOLS is tiny on most screens but the boom, probe or tanker and its lights aren’t. 

18 minutes ago, lmp said:

Why don't we have proper tutorials for all aircraft?

AAR is 2% instruction and 98% practice. A tutorial can’t do the practice for you. Any video can show you the basics, the rest is up to you. 

22 minutes ago, lmp said:

It should be a progression, from formation flying, through very simple AAR scenarios

Part of the “problem” is that most of the gameplay is DCS doesn’t involve any formation flying. Unless you do something like play WWII DLC campaigns that have you flying long durations as a wingman. Most DCS missions cast you as the lead. So players are trying to run before they can walk. Perhaps when there’s a dynamic campaign with a career mode or something which can put you as a wingman for hours and hours. That really helps. 

[upyr1]

ED has said no to easy mode AAR. However, there is no reason not to think about ways to improve AAR. RIght now I really wish we could get feedback from Mover or any other real aviator concerning AAR in DCS vs real life.  It seems to me that the flying boom is harder than the probe and drouge method in DCS, is this the case in real life or is it just something weird about DCS? Some ideas posted so far 

 

4 hours ago, Minsky said:

I don't think we need multiple difficulty settings. But having something akin to the 'easy comms' toggle would help not only players, but also content creators, who must rely on various walkarounds to make their AAR missions more accessible.

The idea is simple. By ticking a box in either the DCS settings or in the mission editor, and then positioning the aircraft inside a fairly large box behind the tanker, the player will automatically begin receiving fuel.

Contacting the tanker or extending the probe is not required. Although the player is free to try plugging in and improve their skills while waiting for refueling to complete.

Maybe something like this could work to improve the flying boom, the box should be smaller I'll only change my mind if I hear from SMEs saying DCS flying boom refueling is spot on. Next we have this 

26 minutes ago, lmp said:

While I'm not convinced we need an outright easy AAR mode, I think DCS could do a much better job at teaching AAR and making it somewhat more accessible. We have an overlay for the IFLOLS, why not for the PDL? We have an alignment overlay for sling loading, why not for probe and drogue refueling? Learning to hit the basket is a lot easier when you actually know what you're doing wrong.

Why don't we have proper tutorials for all aircraft? Each and every module teaches you how to take off and land, why not how to refuel? We typically get one single mission or maybe an instant action mission (no consistency!) without any guidance. It should be a progression, from formation flying, through very simple AAR scenarios to refueling in challenging conditions (at night, in a heavy aircraft etc.). With the voice of Wags guiding you through the entire process, giving you good information. Right now the AAR learning process is digging through forums and YouTube for advice, half of which is dubious, and trying with practically no feedback until it somehow clicks. We can do better.

 

No doubt we need better training missions over all. I've suggested having a training campaign.  My own suggestion on the section was to enable Jester to take over and refuel the F-4E- that would only work in modules that use Jester and have controls in the back like the F-4E

 

[Tippis]

7 hours ago, PawlaczGMD said:

Easy refueling will not help you learn how to refuel, quite the opposite, it will teach you bad habits, and give an easy out to avoid learning it.

That depends entirely on how it's done.

If it's done correctly — and in line with what the devs want DCS to be — then it will be a set of helpers and teaching tools that will let you break down the problem into smaller chunks and chip away at them one at a time. Correct positioning; correct eyelines; correct control; correct process. As it is right now, you can only ever have everything thrown at you at once which is the worst possible situation and leads to even bigger training scars and bad habits simply because you're winging everything and can't get a feel for how each component is done correctly.

Minsky's idea of “proximity refuel” will help get the process down — especially if the box is variable. This can be read through, but doing it helps more.

The OP's idea of generous basket snapping helps with control — you still have to fly formation. This needs to be ground out, and can't really be done any other way.

The idea of some kind of auto-fly helps with correct eyelines — how should the picture look to you when you're set up properly. This is something you think you'd be able to just watch, but what you see with your setup and what others see with their in their fancy youtube videos will differ.

Correct positioning is the bit you can finally tackle when everything else is in place and you don't need any more helpers. It relies on all the previous parts being in place. As it is right now, trying to design a mission to teach this will immediately jump the player to the very end of what they should be doing.

 

Also, the idea that this would take a lot is… questionable. All the pieces needed for proximity refuel already exists in the scripting engine. They just need to be hooked up as a single option. Basket snapping actually already exists too — it just happens to be very ungenerous. Telling the game to extend that zone should be trivial unless DCS is so horribly broken it needs to die anyway. Auto-fly already exists. Just not for players. It could be further enhanced with more UI element control similar to guidance gates (which are currently restricted to static positions and only to “player,” rather than “client” aircraft), which would help in telling you what to look for and what to line up. This could conceivably also help with the proximity box if it were made a bit more dynamic. Again, this is something that largely already exists.

So I'm left wondering what this supposed immense effort is meant to come from?

Remember what DCS is officially and explicitly meant to be: “The ambition is to hand hold users from novice pilot all the way to the most advanced and sophisticated operator”. Providing the tools to teach AAR is fully in line with the core concept of the game, and in line with how many other aspects have been given more and more training options over time. Realism isn't even an argument here.

50 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

ED has already said this isn’t planned. 

The thing about plans is that they change. That's the entire point of the wishlist forum: to change the devs plans so they do something else.

[sirrah]

Are you guys seriously starting this:

 

again?

 

 

(what a waste of internet...)

[BIGNEWY]

As mentioned in the locked thread it is not something we are planning, I am happy to leave this thread open for discussion as long as it stays civil and constructive. 

thank you 

[Exorcet]

8 hours ago, PawlaczGMD said:

Unlimited fuel/ammo/inv can be used to set up prolonged practice dogfights to get better at dogfighting, or to replenish your bombs to get better at bombing, etc, without wasting time to reset the mission.

Refuel is exactly the same. Easy refuel means you can regularly play missions that involve refuel and become accustomed to the process, and not just the immediate refueling, but fuel management and finding the tanker.

Not only could an easy refuel option be a helpful earning tool, it could easily be better than unlimited fuel.

People are only OK with the existing option because they're in the sim already, not because of their utility. Not to mention that it doesn't really matter if it helps people train or not. DCS doesn't exist to make pilots.

Quote

 

Not to mention what you propose is a complete waste of dev time, while we have so many pressing issues that we eagerly await.

 

Not when it can be a training tool or a tool to help mission makers simply their missions.

[Furiz]

I think people that don't like playing simulations shouldn't be playing simulations.