Any interesting or challenging flight dynamics?

[admiki]

2 hours ago, davidrbarnette said:

Some very basic things are way problematic with this release, even for an early access state, and it makes me believe something is seriously amiss at Eagle Dynamics.

And now just imagine the state it would be in if it was released at originally planned date

[LuseKofte]

8 hours ago, Andurula said:

How about holding a hover at 1000 feet and then pulling the nose up performing a loop without losing more than a couple hundred feet?

You can do a loop in all choppers in all simulators. We area bunch of jokes if you ask me. 
I don’t care about that, I care about what it can do within its real envelope. This FM is not finished. I tested the Hind when it came and dropped it until it got an update. When I am satisfied with my button assignments I probably do the same with this. I did not fly the Gazelle two years , not in a row but when the tweaked fm did not suit my taste. 
Was this really a surprise for you? For what it suppose to do it is not worth spending time with. But I still had some fun with it. And will spend more time with it trying to have fun. 
But I was not surprised. 
I feel good sitting in that cockpit. I can almost slingload it with my dignity intact. I can easily land with a great landing pattern. 
I take off in it like a pro. I just can’t do anything right in between those things just now. It just not do what I want it to do. I see myself in a disadvantage having a ffb stick for the first time. 

Edited August 10, 2024 by LuseKofte

[47_Driver]

14 hours ago, DishDoggie said:

You need to Fallow this Man he is a real CH47 Pilot and is just getting started on YouTube. He loves DCS and Flying his CH47. He asks for understanding because he does not do a lot of YouTube or Video making. As of now he only has 2 Videos 1 for DCS and 1 for MSFS. It don't matter to me how long or What he makes. He is a real CH47 Pilot and it will be real honest help like GOLD BARS in Learning Give 47Driver some YouTube Love.

 

That's me! Thank you for the support and the share!

[Andurula]

In speaking with a current F model driver it sounds like the F model flight control systems are vastly more complex and integrated than the C and D models I am familiar with (which were still pretty complex for their time).

While the current flight model is rather "cartoon-like", I am told the flight control systems which have not been implemented yet will completely suppress the current flight model characteristics and should provide a much more realistic experience.

At least that sounds reasonable to me.  For now I am going to keep my mouth shut and check back in a few months.

[Nealius]

The most challenging thing I find so far, other than making taxi turns to the left (she likes to go right instead), is coordinating turns. Left turns seem okay, but right turns have significant adverse yaw that the pedals won't take out. At some point after adding more rudder I go from an uncoordinated turn, to the nose pivoting right as the airframe continues traveling straight.

Edited August 11, 2024 by Nealius

[adrift_foolish1]

Well, I think op got his challenging flight dynamics. I knew we weren't getting any of the hold modes but I didn't expect the vast majority of the flight characteristics to be so poorly implemented.

[Hoirtel]

Well I had real trouble flying this thing. As usual first thing I learnt is the cold start, which inevitably means I miss the odd thing. In this case it was the AFCS, pretty sure wags didn't do that in the quick start video. Interesting handling. Sometimes I can get it stable then when trying to push forward the rear rotor feels like it gets more ETL and pitches the aircraft down. Also any sideslip causes hard fishtailing. This seems very realistic although I have no idea really. Next time I'll try the AFCS....

[sirrah]

Fwiw: My first impressions after 30mins in the Chinook.

Although I'm very aware that it is EA and WIP, current flight characteristics got me chuckling a bit.

I started with binding my collective axis and (as usual) it was initially inverted, resulting in my Chinook rocketing into the sky  (now I'm not an SME, so pehaps this is normal, but I'd expect something to fail/break if you try this irl, or at least some cautions or warnings).

Given the funny skyrocket start, I used a few minutes to see if the aircraft could be overstressed, to which I didn't succeed. Not sure how I mamaged, but at somepoint I even did a nose down (forward) looping 

 

It really got me into them early day Gazelle vibes. Quite fun actually, but yeah, some work to be done there, as some of my "moves" beat the laws of physics.

 

My second flight (beginning with properly adjusted axis) was more normal. I practiced some hovering, which was way more challenging than I would have thought. Maybe there's some setting or system I don't know of yet and didn't enable, but I had a lot of trouble to keep myself at one altitude. Even the slightest collective input got me ascending/depending. Will take some time getting used to (which I don't mind at all )

Edited August 14, 2024 by sirrah

[LuseKofte]

9 minutes ago, sirrah said:

I practiced some hovering, which was way more challenging than I would have thought.

Well you got the same impression as me in start. But! If you fly it within its envelope. With my stick. A Rihno ffb, the only challange I got now is straight forward flight and its tendency to nose down 

I will research trim a bit more. 
for takeoff ( most of the time) don’t move any controllers. And same goes for hoover. Keep control of altitude and only light correcting with the stick. A little bit of dead zone on rudderpedals can be adviced since a millimetre touch will make it respond and mess up your flying. If one use BOB the ai pilot for longer flying , this thing is not as bad as my first impression, I now feel a bit comfortable in it. And start seeing what they meaning about having a blast while transporting. 
One need to overlook the fact you can barrel roll it and fly inverted and looping every direction. If you follow procedures and give it a chance. Your feedback to the developers will be noticed. They are aware of the oddities 

[sirrah]

2 hours ago, LuseKofte said:

Well you got the same impression as me in start. But! If you fly it within its envelope. With my stick. A Rihno ffb, the only challange I got now is straight forward flight and its tendency to nose down 

I will research trim a bit more. 
for takeoff ( most of the time) don’t move any controllers. And same goes for hoover. Keep control of altitude and only light correcting with the stick. A little bit of dead zone on rudderpedals can be adviced since a millimetre touch will make it respond and mess up your flying. If one use BOB the ai pilot for longer flying , this thing is not as bad as my first impression, I now feel a bit comfortable in it. And start seeing what they meaning about having a blast while transporting. 
One need to overlook the fact you can barrel roll it and fly inverted and looping every direction. If you follow procedures and give it a chance. Your feedback to the developers will be noticed. They are aware of the oddities 

Hehe indeed "loopings in all directions" is the way to describe it  

 

But please don't get me wrong, I'm not worried, nor dissatisfied and I'm sure ED will iron out these shenanigans at some point

[Andurula]

4 hours ago, LuseKofte said:

Well you got the same impression as me in start. But! If you fly it within its envelope. With my stick. A Rihno ffb, the only challange I got now is straight forward flight and its tendency to nose down 

Which should go away when the DASH system is implemented.  The DASH manages the forward tilt of both rotor heads to keep the airframe level in forward flight.

[Slippa]

I haven’t flown either in real life but I think the Chinook as it is has the flying characteristics of a bouncy castle. 

It’s a lot of fun and a colourful ride and who am I to say if it’s right or not anyway? It climbs vertically like a hot air balloon-come-spaceship. Early Access so who knows what’ll change?

[adrift_foolish1]

7 hours ago, Andurula said:

Which should go away when the DASH system is implemented.  The DASH manages the forward tilt of both rotor heads to keep the airframe level in forward flight.

Thats the LCT. DASH should make it so you don't have to hold aft cyclic to maintain high speed flight.

[Slippa]

Like a lot of DCS modules, I’m getting more into it the more I fly it.

[Vee.A]

“No one knows what happens if you roll a helicopter upside down, throw in a boot full of anti-torque and open the door. Why? Because if you did that in the real world, you'd probably die.“

I'm not an SME, so I can't comment on specific behaviors, and there certainly could be some flight model weirdness at the edge of the envelope, but keep in mind that this is a helicopter with about 10,000HP, and while it's big for a helicopter, it's not that big of a machine relative to others. And the tandem configuration is completely different to everything else in DCS (and yes, including the Ka-50. The coaxial design is quite different as well). So it's a good idea to not just assume that things are broken just because it doesn't conform to what you think a helicopter should fly like. I've seen a lot of flightsimmers in general make that mistake. 

From what I've seen folks observe within the envelope flying with the AFCS off does appear to handle pretty closely to a real Chinook with it off. But the lack of proper LCT, DASH, DAFCS, etc implementations seems to produce pretty different behaviour otherwise. It's unfortunate that they couldn't get them in for release, but hopefully, we see them soon.
 

[47_Driver]

12 hours ago, Andurula said:

Which should go away when the DASH system is implemented.  The DASH manages the forward tilt of both rotor heads to keep the airframe level in forward flight.

DASH stands for Differential Airspeed Hold. It is merely a tube with two actuators attached on either side that will extend or retract based on commanded speed via the cyclic or Flight Director. This will ensure the pilots do not have to hold forward cyclic to maintain forward speed, and vice versa. The LCT, or Longitudinal Cyclic Trim (Actuators) are what you're referring to. As speed increases, they extend on the FWD and AFT head, which will pitch both rotor systems forward, allowing the fuselage to remain level with the horizon regardless of speed. They retract at a hover and low speed to assist with hover attitude, and the drive to the GND position on the ground to assist with ground taxi.

[PilotMi8]

В 10.08.2024 в 16:03, Andurula сказал:

The flight model - at release - is a joke.

No wonder they said it was easy to fly.  Its not a helicopter flight model.

Small details like the deck angle at hover is wrong  but that's not the real problem.  _

I will certainly accept your opinion 100% if you are a real pilot and tried these figures on a real CH-47D helicopter, and they came out completely differently for you or didn’t work out at all.

If not, then I will answer in detail.

 I agree with you that for early access, not all strength limitations of the helicopter design are implemented, as well as not all limitations on the helicopter systems (for example, hydraulic and fuel).
However, I am sure that in a real helicopter, the capabilities of the control system will allow you to do what you got on the virtual one. If the maneuvering characteristics differ - the radii of the trajectories of these maneuvers, angular speeds of rotation, then not significantly.
For example, the CH-53 easily performs both barrels and loops, despite the fact that it is a transport!))
The fact that no one does the aerobatic maneuvers you described on a real Chinook helicopter is a simple explanation. And you can easily figure this out yourself if you answer the question: for what task, bringing benefit according to the purpose of the helicopter, to do aerobatics on a real Chinook helicopter?

Any "loop" or "barrel" or as well as rotation around a vertical axis with exorbitant angular velocity on a real helicopter,  is a "minus" of several tens of hours of the fuselage and main rotor system resource.  Therefore, even on AH-64 Apache or Mi-28 99% of pilots do not train for this! It is expensive to maintain, given that the benefit of such maneuvers for a helicopter in combat is practically zero.

The only thing that can be useful and help in combat from the helicopter's aerobatics capabilities is the angular velocity of rotation along the bank (roll), and bit less often  - high pitch angular velocity. This will allow you to turn away from an or obstacle (or birds, or m.be burst of small arms fire)) in time or turn around faster in a mountain gorge.

In addition to the fact that when performing "loops" and "barrels" the fuselage and the main rotor system of helicopters are excessively loaded, there may be (or may not be) interruptions in the operation of the fuel and hydraulic systems. That is, it is desirable to have these systems prepared for such aerobatics during helicopter design. 

Let me remind you that in the flight model we simulate the most complete capabilities according to the aerodynamic characteristics of the helicopter and its control system. 
And of course, work on improving the flight models of helicopters and their control systems is still ongoing, but this is more a refinement of "details" and not at all the aerodynamic foundations of these models. Regarding the restrictions (limitations) on destructive overload, as well as on the operation of helicopter's systems under extreme conditions will be gradually added..

[Hiob]

Real world considerations for maintenance and airframe lifetime(*) can be comletely disregarded in a sim. No wonder that you can do stuff you never see irl.

(*Or safety of life and health for that matter)

Edited August 12, 2024 by Hiob

[DishDoggie]

Me Likey Chinooky Hooky Joe.

Me go Hooky all night long.

[Slippa]

[Yo-Yo]

On 8/6/2024 at 8:24 AM, fjacobsen said:

VRS is mostly overdone in DCS - probably for gameplay reasons.

I once talked with a German army UH-1D instructor, who told that You would not enter VRS without purpose, and it needs to be heavy and either in hot or high conditions.

 

 

[fjacobsen]

9 minutes ago, Yo-Yo said:

 

 

I´m not saying that it doesn´t happen, I´m just saying that it is harder to get into, than what we experience in DCS.

Especially the Mi-8 is very prone to got into VRS.

The German colonel just told me that it isn´t something that happens very often, because it´s hard to get into using normal helicopter flight procedures.

[PilotMi8]

3 часа назад, fjacobsen сказал:

_The German colonel just told me that it isn´t something that happens very often, because it´s hard to get into using normal helicopter flight procedures.

..and the Russian colonel tells you - it's not that difficult! And the IRL Mi-8, and the IRL Mi-24 - too
Two pilots I know well got into the VRS in their practice, one on the Mi-8, the other on the Mi-24

[fjacobsen]

11 minutes ago, PilotMi8 said:

..and the Russian colonel tells you - it's not that difficult! And the IRL Mi-8, and the IRL Mi-24 - too

Maybe because they use different flight procedures .

I don´t know, maybe it´s just because we don´t have the pants in the seat feedback You would get in a real helicopter when flying in a desktop sim.

I was developer on a UH-1D for FSX many years ago, and as expert advisor, we had this German colonel, who had flown UH-1D's and NH90's.

It´s not a critisism of the DCS Helicopter flight models, just a note from me, that VRS might be a tad too common, than what You would see IRL.

RL Helicopter pilots are welcome to chime in here, I have no trouble to accept when I am wrong.

Edited August 13, 2024 by fjacobsen

[Nealius]

Nearly every real-world helo pilot, DCS SMEs included, who is active on various DCS-related social media content, has stated that VRS is overdone in sims. Not sure why this is still debated.