Best way to start landing procedure? Plus the ballooning issue

[Drevin]

Hello. Although so far I manged to complete a few successful landings, I'm still unsure what is the best way to start the landing procedure. I don't want to fly for a few months and then accidentally find out I've been doing it all wrong. And yes, I know that I should do those pattern landings, but I'm too green to start thinking about those. I am strictly talking about a relatively long straight approach. So far, I started landings at 10000ft ASL by getting out of A/P mode and putting the throttle to idle. Gear down at 300KIAS, flaps down to half at 250KIAS, followed shortly by full flaps. At this point I'm always confused how to quickly and simply deal with the ballooning issue. No speed brakes used at all. Distance to runway: 40-30NM, but I'll try to start closer and closer as I get better and faster in reactions. So, may questions would be:

1. Is it ok to go full idle when starting the landing procedure, or it's better to still have more RPM left in the engines, and use the speed brake instead?

2. It's easier or harder to just go to full flaps in one go, instead of going to half, wait a bit and then go full?

3. How would I best deal with the ballooning issue, step by step? I could just keep on trying over and over, but maybe a quick solution is right around the corner. I seem to either be too nose down or too nose up until I get some balance in the plane.

4. Since I've opened this topic, might as well ask what is the average descent rate I should observe on a regular 8 degree AOA and 3 degree glideslope? 700-900ft/min is more or less appropriate? And I stopped flaring, because I read it would be a bad habit to have in the F/A-18C.

Thank you.

[razo+r]

9 minutes ago, Drevin said:

Hello. Although so far I manged to complete a few successful landings, I'm still unsure what is the best way to start the landing procedure. I don't want to fly for a few months and then accidentally find out I've been doing it all wrong. And yes, I know that I should do those pattern landings, but I'm too green to start thinking about those. I am strictly talking about a relatively long straight approach. So far, I started landings at 10000ft ASL by getting out of A/P mode and putting the throttle to idle. Gear down at 300KIAS, flaps down to half at 250KIAS, followed shortly by full flaps.

Thats too fast. Gear limit is 250kts, though nothing happens in DCS (unfortunately), try to stay within limits. 

Also for flaps, extending them later will help. 

9 minutes ago, Drevin said:

At this point I'm always confused how to quickly and simply deal with the ballooning issue. No speed brakes used at all. Distance to runway: 40-30NM, but I'll try to start closer and closer as I get better and faster in reactions. So, may questions would be:

1. Is it ok to go full idle when starting the landing procedure, or it's better to still have more RPM left in the engines, and use the speed brake instead?

Yes, it is ok to go full idle. There is nothing against that. The FADEC will make sure the engines will still remain operational and in flight idle. If necessary, you can use both idle power and airbrake. 

9 minutes ago, Drevin said:

2. It's easier or harder to just go to full flaps in one go, instead of going to half, wait a bit and then go full?

I do one after another. 

9 minutes ago, Drevin said:

3. How would I best deal with the ballooning issue, step by step? I could just keep on trying over and over, but maybe a quick solution is right around the corner. I seem to either be too nose down or too nose up until I get some balance in the plane.

Extend flaps later. You don't need them at 250 knots or so. This way the ballooning will come later and less pronounced. 

As for dealing with it, you just need some experience and some basic flying skills before you can properly counteract it. 

9 minutes ago, Drevin said:

4. Since I've opened this topic, might as well ask what is the average descent rate I should observe on a regular 8 degree AOA and 3 degree glideslope? 700-900ft/min is more or less appropriate? And I stopped flaring, because I read it would be a bad habit to have in the F/A-18C.

Thank you.

As a rule of thumb, ROD for a 3 degrees is 5 * Ground Speed. Example: your ground speed is 160 knots, so 5*160=800 fpm. 

The ground speed is visible on your HSI. 

Alternativly you can also just put your FPV on 3 degrees on the HUD and you are good. 

Flaring is not forbidden. On a carrier you don't flare. On land however, it depends. US operators do not flare while other countries flare. Up to you there. 

Edited May 5, 2024 by razo+r

[Jackjack171]

13 minutes ago, Drevin said:

Hello. Although so far I manged to complete a few successful landings, I'm still unsure what is the best way to start the landing procedure. I don't want to fly for a few months and then accidentally find out I've been doing it all wrong. And yes, I know that I should do those pattern landings, but I'm too green to start thinking about those. I am strictly talking about a relatively long straight approach. So far, I started landings at 10000ft ASL by getting out of A/P mode and putting the throttle to idle. Gear down at 300KIAS, flaps down to half at 250KIAS, followed shortly by full flaps. At this point I'm always confused how to quickly and simply deal with the ballooning issue. No speed brakes used at all. Distance to runway: 40-30NM, but I'll try to start closer and closer as I get better and faster in reactions. So, may questions would be:

1. Is it ok to go full idle when starting the landing procedure, or it's better to still have more RPM left in the engines, and use the speed brake instead?

2. It's easier or harder to just go to full flaps in one go, instead of going to half, wait a bit and then go full?

3. How would I best deal with the ballooning issue, step by step? I could just keep on trying over and over, but maybe a quick solution is right around the corner. I seem to either be too nose down or too nose up until I get some balance in the plane.

4. Since I've opened this topic, might as well ask what is the average descent rate I should observe on a regular 8 degree AOA and 3 degree glideslope? 700-900ft/min is more or less appropriate? And I stopped flaring, because I read it would be a bad habit to have in the F/A-18C.

Thank you.

chucksguides.com/aircraft/dcs/fa-18c/#[129,"XYZ",-8e-06,540,1]

[Drevin]

47 minutes ago, razo+r said:

Thats too fast. Gear limit is 250kts, though nothing happens in DCS (unfortunately), try to stay within limits.

Alternativly you can also just put your FPV on 3 degrees on the HUD and you are good.

Flaring is not forbidden. On a carrier you don't flare. On land however, it depends. US operators do not flare while other countries flare. Up to you there.

I thought gear limit was 300KIAS, based on a video tutorial I saw. You obviously seem to know your stuff, so I'll drop it at 250KIAS from now on.

What's the FPV?

About the flaring, since there will be a point in the future when I'll try carrier landings, I thought to not get in the habit of flaring, even on ground. Plus, I might end up floating from time to time and screwing the landing more or less.

[mikko.1842]

26 minutes ago, Drevin said:

What's the FPV?

FPV = Flight Path Vector

[Drevin]

Oh lol, I knew that as Velocity Vector, and was expecting find something like an ILS line, or something. Cheers, though.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

Have you tried Bankler's CASE I recovery training mission? It prompts you on the pattern parameters (speed, alt, config, etc) and grades you. Pretty cool. Keep doing it and you'll start remembering the numbers.

Yeah the full flaps ballooning is quite annoying. Some have said they only go full flaps when well below 200kts so the ballooning effect is less. 

The other bit you might have to look at later is the burble at the carrier's stern (if turbulence was turned on in the mission editor). Discussed here. 

Edited May 5, 2024 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[Drevin]

47 minutes ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

Have you tried Bankler's CASE I recovery training mission? It prompts you on the pattern parameters (speed, alt, config, etc) and grades you. Pretty cool. Keep doing it and you'll start remembering the numbers.

Yeah the full flaps ballooning is quite annoying. Some have said they only go full flaps when well below 200kts so the ballooning effect is less. 

The other bit you might have to look at later is the burble at the carrier's stern (if turbulence was turned on in the mission editor). Discussed here. 

 

No. I'm too green to try any of this. My current plan is to get better at long and straight landings, then try to enter a pattern and land on a runway from short final. Then I'll look into carrier ops. But at least I can backtrack to this post later and check on that video.

And indeed my last try was better, after I dropped the gear only after 250KIAS and the flaps under 200KIAS.

[TonyRS]

One option, to avoid ‘ballooning’ upwards, is to reduce your speed below 250 knts, lower your gear and flaps in a steep turn onto your final approach heading, the ballooning effect in this case will assist your turn rather than increase your altitude. As per overhead break. Just a thought; it’s how do it every time

In the Hornet, don’t get hung up on speeds and descent rates. The important things for landing the Hornet are…
1. You are ‘speed on AoA’ (trimmed so your velocity vector is aligned with the middle of you ‘E’ bracket.(if this is the case you will be at the correct AoA & speed for landing. The ‘actual’ speed will vary dependent your Hornets’ gross weight.)
2. Your Velocity Vector is on your chosen touchdown point
3. AND, when 2. Above is set, your Velocity Vector is ALSO set at 3.5 degrees down on your pitch ladder.
It is also useful to know that (as a general rule of thumb) for every mile you are from touch down you need 300ft of altitude to be on correct glidescope. For example… to be on glidescope 20’ from touch down you should be at 6,000ft, 15’ from touch down 4,500ft & 10’ from touch down 3,000ft

There is no need to ‘flare’ the Hornet if on the correct glidescope. However, for a softer, more elegant, touch down; just before touchdown, apply some power, just enough to raise the velocity vector up a little in your HUD which will reduce your rate of descent; up say, from -3.5 degrees to -2.0 degrees.

If learning; do give yourself plenty of time to configure your plane, trim to ‘Speed on AoA’ and setup on a stable approach. Good landings do not just happen; they are the consequence of a good, stable approach.

Edited May 5, 2024 by TonyRS

[TimRobertsen]

On 5/5/2024 at 5:34 PM, Drevin said:

No. I'm too green to try any of this. My current plan is to get better at long and straight landings, then try to enter a pattern and land on a runway from short final. Then I'll look into carrier ops. But at least I can backtrack to this post later and check on that video.

And indeed my last try was better, after I dropped the gear only after 250KIAS and the flaps under 200KIAS.

Since you're doing straight in approaches, one thing which could be usefull when it comes to getting a "feel" for transition phase between auto-flaps and full-flaps (since you're new to the Hornet, going first half flaps and then full flaps just adds another step to get a feel for, so my tip would be to just go from auto to full flaps) is to pay attention to the AOA as the speed decreases. The AOA gives a more nuanced picture of the "aerodynamic load" on the aircraft, the relationship between the aircraft's weight and airspeed.

Just put the throttle to idle and let the aircraft decrease in speed, and try extending the flaps at different AOA's. And you'll find an AOA where the ballooning becomes less pronounced, this could be anywhere are 6-8 AOA (I don't quite remember the typical numbers) *this is for straight in approaches, if you are in a turn the dynamics are a bit different.

One thing to note is that the airspeed will decrease faster when you extend the flaps at such a high AOA/low speed, you will quickly start to loss altitude if you don't "meet" the decrease in speed/lift with increasing the throttle. This will give you good practice at easing up the power during the transition. The next step will ofcourse be to practice increasing throttle and trimming for on-speed at the same time.

I hope this is of some use:) A lot of text for simply saying "pay attention to the AOA):p 

[Drevin]

1 hour ago, TimRobertsen said:

Since you're doing straight in approaches, one thing which could be usefull when it comes to getting a "feel" for transition phase between auto-flaps and full-flaps (since you're new to the Hornet, going first half flaps and then full flaps just adds another step to get a feel for, so my tip would be to just go from auto to full flaps) is to pay attention to the AOA as the speed decreases. The AOA gives a more nuanced picture of the "aerodynamic load" on the aircraft, the relationship between the aircraft's weight and airspeed.

Just put the throttle to idle and let the aircraft decrease in speed, and try extending the flaps at different AOA's. And you'll find an AOA where the ballooning becomes less pronounced, this could be anywhere are 6-8 AOA (I don't quite remember the typical numbers) *this is for straight in approaches, if you are in a turn the dynamics are a bit different.

One thing to note is that the airspeed will decrease faster when you extend the flaps at such a high AOA/low speed, you will quickly start to loss altitude if you don't "meet" the decrease in speed/lift with increasing the throttle. This will give you good practice at easing up the power during the transition. The next step will ofcourse be to practice increasing throttle and trimming for on-speed at the same time.

I hope this is of some use:) A lot of text for simply saying "pay attention to the AOA):p 

So basically, if I get this right, I could lower the gear, add a bit of power to counter the drag, then trim to 8 degrees, put down flaps and add again some power, and maybe the balance is already good enough?

[SharpeXB]

On 5/7/2024 at 9:43 AM, Drevin said:

So basically, if I get this right, I could lower the gear, add a bit of power to counter the drag, then trim to 8 degrees, put down flaps and add again some power, and maybe the balance is already good enough?

Once you complete the break turn and you’re below 250 kts you just extend the gear and flaps at the same time. No need to do these separately as you want to trim to on-speed as quickly as possible. I would set the throttle to idle before the break turn since the goal is to bleed off speed in the turn, you can add some back to keep on the AOA
If you haven’t tried the training mission, that’s a good place to start. IMO I’d practice the pattern landing right away since that’s actually easier than going straight in. Plus all your landings except Case III will be like that. 

Edited May 9, 2024 by SharpeXB

[Drevin]

25 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Once you complete the break turn and you’re below 150kts you just extend the gear and flaps at the same time. The manual says 150kts but I usually do it at 250. No need to do these separately as you want to trim to on-speed as quickly as possible. I would set the throttle to idle before the break turn since the goal is to bleed off speed in the turn, you can add some back to keep on the AOA
If you haven’t tried the training mission, that’s a good place to start. IMO I’d practice the pattern landing right away since that’s actually easier than going straight in. Plus all your landings except Case III will be like that. 

Hmm, you might have a point here. I've already done quite a few straight in landings. I might as well give it a shot and start learning the pattern landings, rather than refine something I'll stop doing at some point. Thanks.

[jaylw314]

I'd just drop the gear and flaps all at the same time.  That way you have to make a big adjustment just one time, instead of a bunch of big adjustments at every step.

Just drop them all, and anticipate the push forwards to keep the FPM on the horizon until speed bleeds off. Then start trimming for AOA and don't move the stick in pitch anymore, because you don't need to make any more big adjustments.

FWIW, Case I patterns are easier because you only need to fly the glideslope for 20 seconds  I'm kidding, of course, it's still all difficult! 

Edited May 7, 2024 by jaylw314

[TimRobertsen]

On 5/7/2024 at 4:43 PM, Drevin said:

So basically, if I get this right, I could lower the gear, add a bit of power to counter the drag, then trim to 8 degrees, put down flaps and add again some power, and maybe the balance is already good enough?

Maybe my explanation was a bit bad:p

I forgot to mention the gear (simply extend it at around 250kts).

It was meant as an exercise for getting a feel for the different phases the plane goes through when going from normal/"auto-flaps" flying to "full-flaps and  trimmed on-speed". Typically you'd do this fly straight and level a 1000feet (preferably over water, so that you don't hit mountains etc:p)

You don't want to add power to counter the drag from the gear. You want all the drag/speed-reduction you can get.

Only trim after you have extended the flaps, as the Hornet separates between trimming done during autoflaps and trimming done during half/full-flaps. Pitch-trimming done in autoflaps-flight does not "transfere" to when you go to half/full-flaps flight.

Anyway, this might not be usefull, so I'm not going to ramble on:p

 

BTW, make sure you are practicing with correct aircraft-weight for landing. Typically 31.000lbs to 33.000lbs. That's for carrier. It might be different for field-landings, but I dont know.

[Tenkom]

Throttle to idle -> wait for 300kts IAS -> gear down, flaps full , hook down(if carrier landing) -> when it starts ballooning counter with forward stick -> below 200 kts speed will start dropping fast so start countering with throttle -> when you no longer have to push stick forward to stop the ballooning start trimming pitch up gradually until you get to on-speed AoA -> engage auto-throttle -> keep FPV on landing spot -> rest is smooth sailing.

That's how I do it. Works every time(at least 90% of the time).

The part that needs practice is the transition from ballooning, where you need forward stick, to where it starts dropping like a rock. You need to predict that and start throttling up early to check the speed drop. 

[Richard Dastardly]

I try and slow down & get configured in a turn, rather lessens the effect of sudden trim issues when you can roll in/out of it.

[Muchocracker]

Regarding the balooning. This is on the fault of the aircraft and not what you are doing which is following normal NATOPS landing checks. 

Currently the flaps behave like the FCS GAIN switch is operating in ORIDE. Meaning that when the flap switch is set to half and full. They are setting the deflections to fixed values instead of scheduling them as a function of airspeed to 30 and 42/45 degree limits for half and full settings. So what's happening is your dropping to full flaps at 250 knots and it's throwing them full deflection well over a 100 knots higher than they should be, causing balooning.

Best practice to to follow that part of the NATOPS and it's been working for me for a long time. Set half flaps at 200 knots, then down to full below 160 knots. Almost entirely removes the balooning issue. 

Edited May 22, 2024 by Muchocracker

[wiwa23]

But a thing that I don't get, and maybe it's my own faulty expectations, is that this issue was supposed to be fixed in the latest FM update, right? But actually, the ballooning still exists. Now the question is, how long will this take to get fixed...again a tipically loooong time I'm afraid...

[Muchocracker]

10 hours ago, wiwa23 said:

But a thing that I don't get, and maybe it's my own faulty expectations, is that this issue was supposed to be fixed in the latest FM update, right? But actually, the ballooning still exists. Now the question is, how long will this take to get fixed...again a tipically loooong time I'm afraid...

To me at least i think they had ran on the assumption that the flaps work this way the whole time and changed some the FCS scheduling around it to help with the balooning. Which obviously didn't fix the underlying issue that you shouldn't even be having using the flaps this way in the first place. 

[CBStu]

I don't see ballooning as problem at all. On a straight in approach wait until 180-190 to drop flaps. Go half if you want and full soon after. On a boat approach you crank the plane over to 30+deg bank and when the flaps drop you don't even feel them. Also realize that when fully configured on speed you will be flying at 130 to 140k depending on weight. So as flaps come down at 180 or so speed will drop further. When it gets to about 150 start bringing throttle. This whole thing is a balancing act getting lots of stuff right that is going on dang quickly. Be sure your trim button is easily accessible by your thumb because you use it a LOT. Also L Shift + R is your friend. If your approach gets screwed up just do that for a restart of the flight. 

[Muchocracker]

>misses the entire point of what i said 

Yeah, if you wait longer to drop them you're not going to run into it. The issue is you shouldn't have to do it that way. 

[Canada_Moose]

2 hours ago, Muchocracker said:

>misses the entire point of what i said 

Yeah, if you wait longer to drop them you're not going to run into it. The issue is you shouldn't have to do it that way. 

Has this been reported? It would seem to be quite a large misunderstanding!

[maxTRX]

3 hours ago, Canada_Moose said:

Has this been reported? It would seem to be quite a large misunderstanding!

Yeeees,  it's been reported at nauseam...

[Canada_Moose]

2 hours ago, oldcrusty said:

Yeeees,  it's been reported at nauseam...

Well, I have seen the complaints about ballooning in general but not one where somebody is specifically pointing to an FCS logic issue directly related to flap position control. This would appear to be a very large oversight if true, especially given the recent FM improvements that were applied by ED.