waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[krazyj]

1 minute ago, HWasp said:

That's funny because 2020 was just 4 years ago, seems like already completely forgotten. Billion dollar airlines and other businesses related to tourism and travel started to lay off people or send them on unpaid leaves much sooner than that.

Shame, they all did not have 12-24 months of reserves for unplanned emergencies... 

I think, you have no idea, what you are talking about.

I think you have no idea how airlines are run but here we are. 
There are vast differences in running an airline vs running a development company.  such as share holders ect. 

[HWasp]

18 minutes ago, krazyj said:

I think you have no idea how airlines are run but here we are. 
There are vast differences in running an airline vs running a development company.  such as share holders ect. 

I think i do, because I work at one.

What about all the other travel and tourism related businesses then? All of them, that got into trouble in those years is a bad example as well? All very different?

 

[HWasp]

8 hours ago, Gizmo03 said:

I've no clue about that - but i think not just a few.

I'm no expert but just someone reading the forum here - not more and the following is just my point of view.
A couple of weeks ago the rumors of HB not getting paid for a year were somehow confirmed in a very questionable way - by unauthorized published private corresponence. Maybe it was just a fake - i don't know. I just saw it.
Did we notice when that happend? No - everything was fine for us because we didn't know - so, no worries.
Where are they now?
After raising the bars in DCS with their Tomcat they finished their 2 modules and released a second version of their Tomcat - as promised. They made partnership with another 3rd party dev. to bring a Gen 4+ aircraft (the EF Typhoon) to DCS in the future and raising the bars again with their freshly released Phantom for which they are working on other different versions. Additionally to that they have another module (A-6E) in the pipeline.
Now RB didn't get paid for one year.
Did we notice when that happend? Hell YES. Since three month everyone who likes their modules is really worried. And there are a couple of threads here full of speculations.
Where are they now?
They stoped working on their products and the support, went public with the issue, blamed ED for not paying them and most probably they went to court. Also they left their customers behind because it's not yet clear what will happen to their modules and if the F-15E will see a final release at all.

Do you see a difference between these two companies? Could it be that one of them is a good one - probably with a solid financial plan and one not?

Just my opinion but anyway - i think this whole conversation will be deleted soon from this thread (for understandable reasons).

 

If that rumor is true, we are extremely lucky, that they managed to get through that. Great job on their part, it would have been a huge loss.

On the other hand, I don't think that is some kind of standard we should hold all other devs to, because it's very extreme imo.

[Gizmo03]

vor einer Stunde schrieb HWasp:

Shame, they all did not have 12-24 months of reserves for unplanned emergencies... 

That‘s not a shame. That‘s just sad. I‘ve got a couple of friends who lost their jobs and some of them still didn‘t recover.
But the companies with this kind of reserves are still in business.

vor 23 Minuten schrieb HWasp:

If that rumor is true, we are extremely lucky, that they managed to get through that. Great job on their part, it would have been a huge loss.

As i said, i don‘t know if it‘s a fake or true. I just saw it on reddit - that‘s it. Yes you are right, that would have been a huge loss, but hey: they managed it and found a solution - together with ED - so obviously it’s not impossible.

vor 23 Minuten schrieb HWasp:

On the other hand, I don't think that is some kind of standard we should hold all other devs to, because it's very extreme imo.

I don‘t know if i would call it „extreme“ to prepare your company financial wise for some different kinds of crises. Usually everyone no matter if single person or company has a plan B in case of failure or other related problems. In my opinion that‘s more normal than extreme.

Edited July 4, 2024 by Gizmo03

[HWasp]

12 minutes ago, Gizmo03 said:

That‘s not a shame. That‘s just sad. I‘ve got a couple of friends who lost their jobs and some of them still didn‘t recover.
But the companies with this kind of reserves are still in business.

As i said, i don‘t know if it‘s a fake or true. I just saw it on reddit - that‘s it. Yes you are right, that would have been a huge loss, but hey: they managed it and found a solution - together with ED - so obviously it’s not impossible.

I don‘t know if i would call it „extreme“ to prepare your company financial wise for some different kinds of crises. Usually everyone no matter if single person or company has a plan B in case of failure or other related problems. In my opinion that‘s more normal than extreme.

 

Sad is the right word for that indeed, I agree.

I don't think that preparing for something of this extent is normal. RB certainly had reserves, just not enough for this. (otherwise this would have dropped sooner).

[Notso]

On 7/3/2024 at 1:05 PM, Oban said:

The dispute is not about the module.The dispute is allegedly about the business practice and the alleged breach of contract between the 2 parties,

If ED decide to remove the F15E along with all the other Razbam modules, they're in breach of contract, that product was delivered to ED from razbam, whether it's Early access or not.

You know that there's several other Razbam products, so why single out the F15E? The same company also do the South Atlantic map, and that IS getting updated.

You can continue to display your displeasure at their sales and marketing all you want, unless you're privy to the terms and conditions, then for ED it's business as usual until legally instructed otherwise. There's not much more to understand.

So given this "alleged" breach of contract and ED withholding payment to RB until this gets resolved - presumably ED is holding ALL revenue due to RB for the sales of all their modules since the alleged breach began, right?  And presumably, if the dispute is resolved to both parties satisfaction - then ED will give RB ALL the revenue (minus ED's cut) from the continued sale of those modules sold since the dispute/non-payment began, right?  I would hope so anyway, as that legally should be RB's money.

The question is:  what happens to all that revenue from the continued sales of the Harrier, Mirage 2000, Mig-19, and F-15E Strike Eagle that ED has been accumulating up to now if the dispute is NOT resolved and ED walks away?  Does ED just get to keep it?  

@NineLine - you've asked me not to speculate on stuff here.  So here's a direct question that maybe you can prevent speculation:  What happens to the money in the two scenarios above?  Because I think that is at the core of what people are asking here re: "why are you guys still selling the module during the dispute".  I'm curious myself because I honestly don't know how this works.

Thanks!

[freehand]

19 minutes ago, Notso said:

So given this "alleged" breach of contract and ED withholding payment to RB until this gets resolved - presumably ED is holding ALL revenue due to RB for the sales of all their modules since the alleged breach began, right?  And presumably, if the dispute is resolved to both parties satisfaction - then ED will give RB ALL the revenue (minus ED's cut) from the continued sale of those modules sold since the dispute/non-payment began, right?  I would hope so anyway, as that legally should be RB's money.

The question is:  what happens to all that revenue from the continued sales of the Harrier, Mirage 2000, Mig-19, and F-15E Strike Eagle that ED has been accumulating up to now if the dispute is NOT resolved and ED walks away?  Does ED just get to keep it?  

@NineLine - you've asked me not to speculate on stuff here.  So here's a direct question that maybe you can prevent speculation:  What happens to the money in the two scenarios above?  Because I think that is at the core of what people are asking here re: "why are you guys still selling the module during the dispute".  I'm curious myself because I honestly don't know how this works.

Thanks!

Why would you even think a moderator on the forum is going to give you an answer to your question regarding EDs financial matters. 

Edited July 5, 2024 by freehand

[Hammer1-1]

1 hour ago, Notso said:

So given this "alleged" breach of contract and ED withholding payment to RB until this gets resolved - presumably ED is holding ALL revenue due to RB for the sales of all their modules since the alleged breach began, right?  And presumably, if the dispute is resolved to both parties satisfaction - then ED will give RB ALL the revenue (minus ED's cut) from the continued sale of those modules sold since the dispute/non-payment began, right?  I would hope so anyway, as that legally should be RB's money.

The question is:  what happens to all that revenue from the continued sales of the Harrier, Mirage 2000, Mig-19, and F-15E Strike Eagle that ED has been accumulating up to now if the dispute is NOT resolved and ED walks away?  Does ED just get to keep it?  

@NineLine - you've asked me not to speculate on stuff here.  So here's a direct question that maybe you can prevent speculation:  What happens to the money in the two scenarios above?  Because I think that is at the core of what people are asking here re: "why are you guys still selling the module during the dispute".  I'm curious myself because I honestly don't know how this works.

Thanks!

Speculating, but I would highly assume the money is in escrow at the moment.

[Notso]

2 hours ago, freehand said:

Why would you even think a moderator on the forum is going to give you an answer to your question regarding EDs financial matters. 

 

I don't see why not.  He's passed on numerous other matters that he and nick gray have discussed regarding the situation.  I think its a legit question of what happens to the money they've accumulated since they stopped paying RB.  My assumptions are all positive - that they will either pay RB the back-money owed once things get back to normal after the dispute is resolved.  I also expect ED will pay RB the money accumulated since the beginning of the dispute if negotiations fail, because I would think that would be ill-gotten money that ED profited on while a dispute is in progress.  Again, my presumption is ED will do the right thing in the end, I just was asking for 9L's perspective on it rather than speculate.  

Edited July 5, 2024 by Notso

[NineLine]

3 hours ago, Notso said:

@NineLine - you've asked me not to speculate on stuff here.  So here's a direct question that maybe you can prevent speculation:  What happens to the money in the two scenarios above?  Because I think that is at the core of what people are asking here re: "why are you guys still selling the module during the dispute".  I'm curious myself because I honestly don't know how this works.

So you would rather I speculate? I'll pass. I can tell you if it's not resolved and they are forced to go to court I would imagine a judge will decide how things are solved. 

But once again, this is all needless guessing and speculating. The goal is to resolve this without all the fanfare. We should all just focus and push both sides to do that, get it solved and not speculate about what happens if this happens, then that happens, then an asteroid slams into the Earth. 

[Notso]

15 minutes ago, NineLine said:

So you would rather I speculate? I'll pass. I can tell you if it's not resolved and they are forced to go to court I would imagine a judge will decide how things are solved. 

But once again, this is all needless guessing and speculating. The goal is to resolve this without all the fanfare. We should all just focus and push both sides to do that, get it solved and not speculate about what happens if this happens, then that happens, then an asteroid slams into the Earth. 

No, I'm not asking YOU to speculate.  I'm asking if you know how the money is being handled right now.  Is it being held in escrow or is it going into the General Operating funds?  

[Dallenbach]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb Notso:

Nein, ich bitte DICH nicht, zu spekulieren.  Ich frage, ob Sie wissen, wie das Geld im Moment gehandhabt wird.  Wird es treuhänderisch verwahrt oder fließt es in die allgemeinen Betriebsfonds?  

If you don't have anything to do with razbam personally in any way, you don't have to be interested.
I wouldn't disclose my financial affairs either.

 

[nessuno0505]

2 ore fa, NineLine ha scritto:

then an asteroid slams into the Earth. 

It's not a matter of if, but a matter of when. I'm pretty confident we'll see the asteroid first, then a finished and bugs free dcs world module.

[SkateZilla]

2 hours ago, Notso said:

No, I'm not asking YOU to speculate.  I'm asking if you know how the money is being handled right now.  Is it being held in escrow or is it going into the General Operating funds?  

Why would anyone disclose financial operations and account status regarding one company's revenue, to someone that's not part of either company.

Edited July 5, 2024 by SkateZilla

[Horns]

2 hours ago, Notso said:

No, I'm not asking YOU to speculate.  I'm asking if you know how the money is being handled right now.  Is it being held in escrow or is it going into the General Operating funds?  

Another one that should only be answered by lawyers, if at all - a CM commenting on that on a public forum would be nuts.

[stonewall197922]

8 часов назад, Notso сказал:

No, I'm not asking YOU to speculate.  I'm asking if you know how the money is being handled right now.  Is it being held in escrow or is it going into the General Operating funds?  

Do you understand that you asking for disclosure of confidential information? Especially on public forum? If you have questions, make official request (if you have approoriate authority and especially if you have it), and don`t make such a farce here. That kind of behaviour here, realy don`t help.

Edited July 5, 2024 by stonewall197922

[Hammer1-1]

3 minutes ago, stonewall197922 said:

Do you understand that you asking to disclosure confidential information? Especially on public forum? If you have questions, make official request (if you have approoriate authority and especially if you have it), and don`t make such a farce here. That kind of behaviour here, realy don`t help.

he is basically asking if the funds are actually available and ready to be disbursed when the issue is resolved, preferably held by a 3rd party that is neutral to the conflict. this would be mandated by a judge, jury or agreed upon by both parties, and that isnt all that big of a personal question to be asked. its different if he asks for more information like which bank and what-not. while its not an appropriate question to be asking, its NOT inappropriate either.

[stonewall197922]

1 час назад, Hammer1-1 сказал:

he is basically asking if the funds are actually available and ready to be disbursed when the issue is resolved, preferably held by a 3rd party that is neutral to the conflict. this would be mandated by a judge, jury or agreed upon by both parties, and that isnt all that big of a personal question to be asked. its different if he asks for more information like which bank and what-not. while its not an appropriate question to be asking, its NOT inappropriate either.

That is confidential financial information. Such info should not be revealed here. Every wrong word can harm situation even more. Whole that matter is between RB and ED officials. Court can arrest bank accounts or other property (it can be done whithin one day even hours). Where is funds is doesn`t matter. Only agreement between parties matters.

Edited July 5, 2024 by stonewall197922

[Hammer1-1]

14 minutes ago, stonewall197922 said:

That is confidential financial information. Such info should not be revealed here. Every wrong word can harm situation even more. Whole that matter is between RB and ED officials. Court can arrest bank accounts or other property (i can be done whithin one day even hours). Where is funds is doesn`t matter. Only agreement between parties matter.

 

confidential would be the amount, which bank, who's in charge of it.finding out if theres a 3rd party involved -if there is one- public information. These things need to be out in the open with their shareholders, and Id be willing to bet Notso has stock.

[freehand]

30 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

he is basically asking if the funds are actually available and ready to be disbursed when the issue is resolved, preferably held by a 3rd party that is neutral to the conflict. this would be mandated by a judge, jury or agreed upon by both parties, and that isnt all that big of a personal question to be asked. its different if he asks for more information like which bank and what-not. while its not an appropriate question to be asking, its NOT inappropriate either.

No what he is doing is **** stirring with his chosen words any one with 4 more brain cells than a deckchair can see this.

[stonewall197922]

29 минут назад, Hammer1-1 сказал:

confidential would be the amount, which bank, who's in charge of it.finding out if theres a 3rd party involved -if there is one- public information. These things need to be out in the open with their shareholders, and Id be willing to bet Notso has stock.

Youre`re wrong. Why ed should tell to some unknown man on web page where their money is? If he is part of RB management and have authority, why he asked here? And not officially? I call that-manipulation by public opitnion.  Again that dispute is among RB and ED officials. And should not be revealed here. Every wrong word can make situation even harder to solve. You dont know actual situation, you dont know actual ED claims to RB. Why they holded payments? What terms were violated? All that scans of supposedly actual agreement on RB discord is useless and can be fake. You need to know all info about deals between parties. There can be dozens of agreements between them. Just calm down and wait resulution. All that speculation really don`t help. 

p.s. If i were ed ceo and at the moment when other side disclosured  agreement terms to public without asking me . I`d hold not only payments but asked through court to pay me penalties. Can you understand there`s possibilities, that by vilating agreement terms ed not owes funds to rb. But rb owes money to ed by violating terms.

Edited July 5, 2024 by stonewall197922

[Horns]

40 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

he is basically asking if the funds are actually available and ready to be disbursed when the issue is resolved, preferably held by a 3rd party that is neutral to the conflict. this would be mandated by a judge, jury or agreed upon by both parties, and that isnt all that big of a personal question to be asked. its different if he asks for more information like which bank and what-not. while its not an appropriate question to be asking, its NOT inappropriate either.

Any financial information, especially when it’s directly relevant to a legal process in progress, is definitely confidential.

[Erazor]

5 hours ago, NineLine said:

So you would rather I speculate? I'll pass. I can tell you if it's not resolved and they are forced to go to court I would imagine a judge will decide how things are solved. 

But once again, this is all needless guessing and speculating. The goal is to resolve this without all the fanfare. We should all just focus and push both sides to do that, get it solved and not speculate about what happens if this happens, then that happens, then an asteroid slams into the Earth. 

At this point you are pretty much deflecting all valid questions by labelling them as speculation and be done with it. 

[krazyj]

17 hours ago, HWasp said:

I think i do, because I work at one.

What about all the other travel and tourism related businesses then? All of them, that got into trouble in those years is a bad example as well? All very different?

 

yes and no they are not very different because, if you actually work in an airline, then Im sure you know that the change required was in no way anticipated by any in the service sector so there was no contingency plan for this.  

if you run a RnD company or development company or am a contractor ect, you know and anticipate that there is product development ect which will take time before it amounts to anything or lulls in production/work ect. 

Dude this is common business sense and Im sure you are just playing dumb to prove a point the ED is the devil or something of the sort. 
 

[NineLine]

8 hours ago, Notso said:

No, I'm not asking YOU to speculate.  I'm asking if you know how the money is being handled right now.  Is it being held in escrow or is it going into the General Operating funds?  

Ok, fair enough it's not speculating, but also it's a discussion of an ongoing dispute between two companies that has involved lawyers. As I have said about other comments and such on both sides, it's not a good idea to chit-chat about specifics, but I think you can answer yourself with critical thinking. 

6 hours ago, Horns said:

Another one that should only be answered by lawyers, if at all - a CM commenting on that on a public forum would be nuts.

This is correct. We can say even less now. We need to wait for official statements, and even then getting the nitty-gritty details probably will not happen.