waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[JuiceIsLoose]

23 minutes ago, Nightdare said:

 

Paying someone that is stealing from you isn't just wrong, it's actually downright stupid

 

And so ED selling a module they didn’t make and not paying RB their share per the contract isn’t stealing then according to you?

[C3PO]

21 pages and no further forward it seems ...

[NineLine]

4 hours ago, JuiceIsLoose said:

And so ED selling a module they didn’t make and not paying RB their share per the contract isn’t stealing then according to you?

Let's not go further than this, your description of us "stealing" is not helpful nor factual. You are basing this off leaked and unclear information that still does not list or describe all aspects of the disagreement. There is a lot of misinformation out there, especially the one "leaking" things. I recommend not getting caught up in all that and just waiting for official announcements. Yes, it's been quiet, and no we haven't shared anything new, but this is all we can do right now, all the rest of it will just stress you out, or cause worries that are not needed right now.

[JuiceIsLoose]

44 minutes ago, NineLine said:

Let's not go further than this, your description of us "stealing" is not helpful nor factual. You are basing this off leaked and unclear information that still does not list or describe all aspects of the disagreement. There is a lot of misinformation out there, especially the one "leaking" things. I recommend not getting caught up in all that and just waiting for official announcements. Yes, it's been quiet, and no we haven't shared anything new, but this is all we can do right now, all the rest of it will just stress you out, or cause worries that are not needed right now.

So then how long until you feel customers should be provided an official announcement from ED? 6 months? 1 year? Or are we just hoping everyone forgets and moves on?

[C3PO]

Seriously - what is the point of this thread? 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, JuiceIsLoose said:

So then how long until you feel customers should be provided an official announcement from ED? 6 months? 1 year? Or are we just hoping everyone forgets and moves on?

Hopefully, there will be no official statement of any kind by either side until it is resolved.  Public involvement in business disputes is a terrible terrible idea, and is not in any way conducive to getting a speedy resolution.  Once one side makes an announcement, they are basically stuck to that position and can't back down or compromise without losing face.  I trust that both sides' lawyers know this and have advised their clients to shut up until a deal is inked.

[Beirut]

1 hour ago, C3PO said:

Seriously - what is the point of this thread? 

 

To read and to participate in. As you and I have both done.

[SkateZilla]

3 hours ago, JuiceIsLoose said:

So then how long until you feel customers should be provided an official announcement from ED? 6 months? 1 year? Or are we just hoping everyone forgets and moves on?

Read the entire first post, the answer is in there.

[PhantomHans]

11 hours ago, Nightdare said:

 

Paying someone that is stealing from you isn't just wrong, it's actually downright stupid

 

So fire them.  Instead of turning them into slave labor and expecting them to keep working, completely sever the business relationship. 

[av8orDave]

27 minutes ago, PhantomHans said:

So fire them.  Instead of turning them into slave labor and expecting them to keep working, completely sever the business relationship. 

Or, since there’s a business relationship that you’re consumers rely on, sort it out in court.

[Slippa]

Out of court settlement. Get it done and dusted.  

[PhantomHans]

54 minutes ago, davidrbarnette said:

Or, since there’s a business relationship that you’re consumers rely on, sort it out in court.

Apparently we don't sort things out around here. We just stop paying people. 

[NineLine]

6 hours ago, JuiceIsLoose said:

So then how long until you feel customers should be provided an official announcement from ED? 6 months? 1 year? Or are we just hoping everyone forgets and moves on?

When we have news we will let you know, nothing has changed, it's being worked on. It's a legal manner so that will complicate and slow things down. Accusing either side of stealing or wrong doing will not speed up the resolution. Thanks.

41 minutes ago, PhantomHans said:

Apparently we don't sort things out around here. We just stop paying people. 

Apparently, there is much more to it than this. Please note above, try and keep it somewhat constructive if not possible right now, it's probably best to leave this thread until there is more news. I know others are winding people up at various locations around the internet, but really there is nothing to be done until a solution is found. 

[some1]

Regardless of who is at fault, I'm much less willing to spend money on DCS now, after the Razbam fiasco. I may still risk buying a really interesting addon in the future, but gone are the days of throwing money at DCS and the whole "passion and support" spirit.

I can understand 3rd party devs are sometimes falling apart due to internal arguments between team members or just loose the capability to support addons because of age and changing personal situation. That's life, and it's a risk involved in buying addons for any simulator. But ED and 3rd party fighting over money and throwing customers under the bus in the process? That's on another level.

Edited July 30, 2024 by some1

[Koziolek]

8 hours ago, JuiceIsLoose said:

So then how long until you feel customers should be provided an official announcement from ED? 6 months? 1 year? Or are we just hoping everyone forgets and moves on?

Well, if it is in hands of lawyers now, I don't expect it to be resolved faster than in a year or two

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

8 hours ago, C3PO said:

Seriously - what is the point of this thread? 

Look at it as an outlet. People are going to want to talk about it, regardless of whether or not they even hold qualifications to chime in, so might as well get it in one space instead of having a dozen angry threads.

[krazyj]

1 hour ago, some1 said:

Regardless of who is at fault, I'm much less willing to spend money on DCS now, after the Razbam fiasco. I may still risk buying a really interesting addon in the future, but gone are the days of throwing money at DCS and the whole "passion and support" spirit.

I can understand 3rd party devs are sometimes falling apart due to internal arguments between team members or just loose the capability to support addons because of age and changing personal situation. That's life, and it's a risk involved in buying addons for any simulator. But ED and 3rd party fighting over money and throwing customers under the bus in the process? That's on another level.

 

so do you know for a fact that it is only about money or are you basing this on the rumors. To me its about breach of contract and honestly I would think less of ED and any other company that didnt hold themselves to the contracts and pursued legal actions on those who breached them. 

If you had a contract with a construction company to build a house in brick and they build it in carboard boxes, of course you would withhold payment as they are in breach of contract. the workers are likely not at fault but will not be paid due to actions of management. should you just continue to pay the workers then or ? 

[some1]

I've spent 200$ in ED store on Razbam modules that are now unsupported and/or unfinished. How's that for a contract?

Companies fight, customers loose. I don't know who started it and who is at fault (or whose fault is bigger), but either way, I'm not willing to support this circus any more. That's my main point.

[Neil Gardner]

Dear all

I'm sympathetic to those who are worried for your model investments because of this difficulty. But being nearly 60 I've experienced a fair bit of life and in business there are numerous difficulties with organisations rubbing up against each other and often solicitors  are involved. The great majority of these go on without anyone outside those disputing knowing anything about it. They are resolved without most even knowing that it took place. These are not crises. We, the consumers, have been brought into this but that is highly unusual. As for the models, I think they are great as is. I've been simming since FS2000, the flight simulation version of the Neolithic age, and the huge leap forwards since then is incredible. Back then many models were released as is and received very development thereafter. The concept of a continual development is relatively new. And remember that these models are models, they are not absolutely representative of the real thing; they never are.  Of course you have to do what you think best, but I really don't think you need to sell your model F15. even if it is doing anything weird at the moment{and I have to say that this is not the case for me}. EA seem to be up for fixing problems and it is unlikely that they have not the ken to suss how it is coded and to interfere if necessary. The fact that they are already doing that would indicate that the problem of the Hawk has been learnt and there is no legal or technical obstacle to do so. Just my own little contribution to the best. Blessings to all.

[machete]

1 hour ago, some1 said:

I've spent 200$ in ED store on Razbam modules that are now unsupported and/or unfinished. How's that for a contract?

Companies fight, customers loose. I don't know who started it and who is at fault (or whose fault is bigger), but either way, I'm not willing to support this circus any more. That's my main point.

I'm with you. My confidence in ED is in an all time low, and I've been here for a long time.

[Neil Gardner]

6 minutes ago, machete said:

I'm with you. My confidence in ED is in an all time low, and I've been here for a long time.

Guys, don't worry. Its ok, it doesn't mean anything. Or rather, it might, but its unlikely. Don't stress about it. The world is going to s**t at  the moment and there are many more important things to fret about.

[Beirut]

1 hour ago, machete said:

I'm with you. My confidence in ED is in an all time low, and I've been here for a long time.

 

While there are good reasons to feel that way, it is also the case that great devs, like ORBX and Heatblur, are very active with ED. That's a good sign.

 

I'm certainly not happy that my F-15E has been orphaned, I need my GBU-28s after all, but it does still work and I remain hopeful. 

[machete]

16 minutes ago, Beirut said:

While there are good reasons to feel that way, it is also the case that great devs, like ORBX and Heatblur, are very active with ED. That's a good sign.

Agreed, that's why I called on specifically ED and not DCS as a whole. I fully support Razbam, Aerges, Heatblur, Orbx and the others.

But my low expectations are not just with this ED/Razbam fiasco, but also the half assed features, borked patches that supposedly would have more quality since they'd stay longer in the oven, the Chinook that's having a rough time to be released. But yeah, I know these other issues are off-topic here so I won't go on. 

[Slippa]

It’s all part of the mix and you’re making a valid point Machete. I hear all o that.

It’s gonna be a while waiting for a resolution to this. In the meantime, I don’t even know what bits are supposed to be missing in the SE and it flies like a dream. My Harrier is pretty tip-top and Bristol too. So Que sera, sera. Tick-tock, spit-spot an all that jazz, fly pelican, look at the pelican fly. 

[Beirut]

14 minutes ago, machete said:

Agreed, that's why I called on specifically ED and not DCS as a whole. I fully support Razbam, Aerges, Heatblur, Orbx and the others.

But my low expectations are not just with this ED/Razbam fiasco, but also the half assed features, borked patches that supposedly would have more quality since they'd stay longer in the oven, the Chinook that's having a rough time to be released. But yeah, I know these other issues are off-topic here so I won't go on. 

 

I agree with a some of that on the surface, but looked at from way on high, DCS still exists as a one of a kind endeavor. So they probably face one of a kind problems. And for all the bitching we do, and I am complicit in that, we still have access to a flightsim that far far outranks whatever comes in second. 

 

My F-15E, orphaned as it is, unfinished as it is, buggy as it is, remains a work of art without equal in anything outside of DCS. So while I bitch and moan, I will also praise and applaud.