waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[Mizzy]

27 minutes ago, nessuno0505 said:

That's the only real thing you have done in favor of us consumers: since the destiny of the F-15E is uncertain, we can ask a refund. Being it in store credit is not important: as DCS lovers we can surely find another airplane / helicopter / campaign that meets our needs. For this decision we can only say thank you.

 

Thank you

Mizzy

PS: Don't forget the Super Carrier modules, it's great to play and land on a little boat in extreme weather. I have not managed it myself but is still fantastic to try. I will let people know if I ever achieve it with evidence 

Mizzy

Edited October 28, 2024 by Mizzy

[Oban]

I have a great idea, why don't ED just simply stop working on the FREE core game completely, and forget all the fancy stuff like Vulkan,optimisation and fine tuning under the bonnet, so that no more 3rd party modules get let broken. Sounds fair right?

Nah, because the expectations of the consumer exceed the reality of the modules at times, they see a progress report and a choreographed video, and be like "Take my money already" and/or "release it already" and the hype soon dissapears because their expecations are not met, and then the whining starts, no different from every other game out there.

Then you have the module junkies, and I'm one of them, I see the same cool video, and I'm like, I have to have that, fly around for a few hours, don't bother reading the manual, or learning the weapons platforms, because I just want to "f**k shyt up" with some hardware, and then hardly fly it again, for me, I rarely tough the Hind or the Apache, but I knew I just had to have them, not becasue I wanted to support ED, it was like a magpie with a shiny object.

The hop right in crowd like me never mind learning anything about the intricasies of the correct fuses, its "get in there and ruin some bad guys days" ...and then when something breaks, we bitch and whine becasue expectations are higher than reality.

Then you have the hard core, who are few and far between, whom read the manuals front to back, day and night, use the NATOPs manuals, probably fly in a real flight suit too, who concentrate on a couple of modules at the most, learning every nut and bolt, and treat their airframe better than their wifes and partners...they have hundreds of hours in their dedicated airframes, and when soemthing breaks, they are equally as frustrated, as they've put serious time into learing that airframe, and I take my hats off to those guys.

Nobody here should want to see either party fail in any way, I love my Harrier, it's great fun, as is the F15E, as are pretty much all the current range of airframes, we should consider ourselves lucky that we do have such variety to enjoy, all the bitching and whining is just that, and it wastes your valuable time stressing about stuff that's out of anyone here's control

 

[NineLine]

14 hours ago, nessuno0505 said:

 

 

He is not mixing a damn thing. Can't you see what's your problem at ED? "The modules still work". What does a "working module" mean to you? A one that does not crash the simulator at startup? The RB modules (F-15 excluded), while still "flyable", are starting to fail at all, and that's an undeniable reality.

 

 

I understand you do not want to mess with RB's modules until the dispute is ongoing, but this above here is a good suggestion; nevertheless you should have prevented the fuses from bugging before it occurred, not apologizing after: you have said that "you will keep the Razbam modules as they are and try to not break them with DCS updates (and that you know how to prevent it from happening)".

 

 

It's not enough to say they are reported! They should not happen! Ad if they accidentally happen, they must be fixed as soon as possible!

 

 

That's the only real thing you have done in favor of us consumers: since the destiny of the F-15E is uncertain, we can ask a refund. Being it in store credit is not important: as DCS lovers we can surely find another airplane / helicopter / campaign that meets our needs. For this decision we can only say thank you.

 

I understand you are upset with the current status of RB modules, and I get that. The goal right now is to solve the current situation and move forward with RB back taking care of their stuff. If for some reason all fails then we will look at what we can do for the other problems that pop up. As I said though, the fuse issues are reported. Thanks.

[afnav130]

What's the counter now? 6 months of BS? The people who said a year were probably correct since the holidays are coming up and well so good luck with a resolution anytime this year. 

[Pipe]

13 minutes ago, afnav130 said:

What's the counter now? 6 months of BS? The people who said a year were probably correct since the holidays are coming up and well so good luck with a resolution anytime this year. 

This has been going on longer than 6 months. Neither side has blinked, we’re probably in year(s) territory now imo. RB modules will be core updated out of existence at some point…

Edited October 29, 2024 by Pipe

[Koriel]

Used to betatest Flanker 1.5 and 2.0. Bought everything until about 6 months ago. I must have spent over $2000 on Eagle products ( including multiple copies as gifts )

I don't care who's to blame. Until ED solves this whole RazbamGate and makes DCS developer friendly I am out! No more modules for me.

On a sidenote, when gamers ask me what to get, I now point them to other simulators, I do not trust ED anymore.

[Mainstay]

1. Pay RAZBAM money to take over the modules (Mirage, Harrier, MiG-19 and F-15E)
2. Hire the developers (contractors) they hired yourself (ED) for more money (restore trust)
3. Finish products
4. Maintain products
5. Happy customers

[Allo]

29 minutes ago, Mainstay said:

1. Pay RAZBAM money to take over the modules (Mirage, Harrier, MiG-19 and F-15E)
2. Hire the developers (contractors) they hired yourself (ED) for more money (restore trust)
3. Finish products
4. Maintain products
5. Happy customers

I have never owned a RAZBAM module and I'm itching to get one , but I can't with the current situation. Plus they are never on sale.

If they became ED Modules I'd definitely get the Strike Eagle and maybe later on the Mirage and/or Harrier too.

[virgo47]

42 minutes ago, Allo said:

I have never owned a RAZBAM module and I'm itching to get one , but I can't with the current situation. Plus they are never on sale.

If they became ED Modules I'd definitely get the Strike Eagle and maybe later on the Mirage and/or Harrier too.

Just to clarify - they are on sale. Both AV-8 and M2000 were 50% down. Newer modules are less on sale, of course. But Razbam modules generally actually have/had good sales. Just to clarify.

[Ramsay]

26 minutes ago, virgo47 said:

Just to clarify - they are on sale. Both AV-8 and M2000 were 50% down.

AFAIK those sales/discounts pre-date the dispute between ED and Razbam i.e. the last steam sale that offered a Razbam discount on the AV-8B was 15th Sept 2023.

ED/Steam Sales/discounts are made with agreement with the 3rd party developer when appropriate, that is unlikely to happen while ED withhold revenue from Razbam and/or the dispute is unresolved.

Edited October 29, 2024 by Ramsay

[virgo47]

5 minutes ago, Ramsay said:

AFAIK those sales/discounts pre-date the dispute between ED and Razbam i.e. the last steam sale that offered a Razbam discount on the AV-8B was 15th Sept 2023.

ED/Steam Sales/discounts are made with agreement with the 3rd party developer when appropriate, that is unlikely to happen while ED withhold revenue from Razbam and/or the dispute is unresolved.

Yes, of course, it predates the dispute. I apologize if that "never" was meant only for that period. I'd not buy anything with sale anyway with that situation, so I thought he meant it generally.

[nessuno0505]

Il 28/10/2024 at 15:37, Oban ha scritto:

Then you have the module junkies... fly around for a few hours, don't bother reading the manual, or learning the weapons platforms... just want to "f**k shyt up" with some hardware

Then you have the hard core, who are few and far between, whom read the manuals front to back, day and night, use the NATOPs manuals, probably fly in a real flight suit too, who concentrate on a couple of modules at the most, learning every nut and bolt, and treat their airframe better than their wifes and partners...

Maybe I'm in between the two: I like to read manuals front to back, but ED ones not NATOPs, and I concentrate (and own) only a few modules (and just one or two among the most complex), since I find it very difficult and time consuming to properly learn more than this. That said, if you are 100% a player of the first type, then why to play DCS? The intimate nature of DCS are the intricacies of the avionics: if you don't like this and just want to "f**k shyt up" in a shiny plane, you can play war thunder, the modules are also cheaper!

Edited October 29, 2024 by nessuno0505

[Oban]

2 hours ago, nessuno0505 said:

That said, if you are 100% a player of the first type, then why to play DCS? The intimate nature of DCS are the intricacies of the avionics: if you don't like this and just want to "f**k shyt up" in a shiny plane, you can play war thunder, the modules are also cheaper!

I'm the same as yourself, out of all the modules, the F18, and F15E are my main choice of platform, and where I get my most enjoyment.

There's really no comparison between Warthunder, and DCS, one offers more realistic flight dynamics, the other is more arcadish, I do see where you're coming from, it would actually be intersting to see the breakdown of DCS players in terms of Modules owned, and actually modules flown regularly.

I bought the Apache on day 1, and of all the modules owned, this was my biggest regret, the learning curve was massive, and without proper controls, like a collective, it was that "magpie" syndrome, I think since purchasing, I've logged no more than 10 hours... that's definately not good value for money, Casmo's vidoes played a huge part in the lure of getting it too, I'm going to blame him !!

[nessuno0505]

The only very complex airplane I own is the A-10C, both in the original version and in the version II, and it's the most complex plane I've studied in details; the second one being the ka-50 (both versions). I like to change sometimes, like you do, but the others airframes I own are all trainers or cold war, since they are easier to learn: f-5, mig-15, f-86, l-39, uh-1, mi-8, mb-339 (I'm italian). All bought when already out of early access. Then I have some maps and combined arms (bought by mistake: I had misread the description, I thought it was doing something else). Fortunately no RB modules, but I have been tempted several times to buy the AV-8B: I am very attracted by the naval VTOL operations; I never bought it given the biblical development times, the pitiful state in which it's always been (it doesn't even have a manual) and the very little trust I have always had in Razbam (apparently in the end not unjustified). I agree with you: warthunder is another kind of game. What I fear is that, as the modules increase, the complexity and the ability of the developers to keep up and fix all the bugs and systems decrease, and at some point they will no longer be able to offer us wonderful simulations rich of details and minutiae as the a-10C was and continues to be today. DCS today is closer to war thunder than it was 10 years ago and as I see it we really need a change of pace. The Razbam affair is just a symptom of a bigger problem.

Edited October 29, 2024 by nessuno0505

[Oban]

1 hour ago, nessuno0505 said:

The only very complex airplane I own is the A-10C, both in the original version and in the version II, and it's the most complex plane I've studied in details; the second one being the ka-50 (both versions). I like to change sometimes, like you do, but the others airframes I own are all trainers or cold war, since they are easier to learn: f-5, mig-15, f-86, l-39, uh-1, mi-8, mb-339 (I'm italian). All bought when already out of early access. Then I have some maps and combined arms (bought by mistake: I had misread the description, I thought it was doing something else). Fortunately no RB modules, but I have been tempted several times to buy the AV-8B: I am very attracted by the naval VTOL operations; I never bought it given the biblical development times, the pitiful state in which it's always been (it doesn't even have a manual) and the very little trust I have always had in Razbam (apparently in the end not unjustified). I agree with you: warthunder is another kind of game. What I fear is that, as the modules increase, the complexity and the ability of the developers to keep up and fix all the bugs and systems decrease, and at some point they will no longer be able to offer us wonderful simulations rich of details and minutiae as the a-10C was and continues to be today. DCS today is closer to war thunder than it was 10 years ago and as I see it we really need a change of pace. The Razbam affair is just a symptom of a bigger problem.

 

I'm not going to lie, the AV8B is good, even in its current state, it's my 3rd go to module

[YSIAD_RIP]

23 minutes ago, Oban said:

I'm not going to lie, the AV8B is good, even in its current state, it's my 3rd go to module

100% agree with that and the M2000C is still a fantastic module after many years and updates/improvements.  

[Mizzy]

9 hours ago, Koriel said:

Used to betatest Flanker 1.5 and 2.0. Bought everything until about 6 months ago. I must have spent over $2000 on Eagle products ( including multiple copies as gifts )

I don't care who's to blame. Until ED solves this whole RazbamGate and makes DCS developer friendly I am out! No more modules for me.

On a sidenote, when gamers ask me what to get, I now point them to other simulators, I do not trust ED anymore.

Just curious, but if you don't care who's to blame, why put all the blame on ED? Also why do you feel DCS is not developer friendly when there is only one developer (who don't actually develop themselves) affected? My personal experience of Razbam is they were the same with other platforms (MSFS, Strike Fighters) they just left all their published add-ons without warning and re-emerged here in DCS and it looks like the same story is going to be repeated. 

Don't you think you should let other 'gamers' decide what they want to play rather than you telling them what they should do ! You are carrying a grudge that isn't really your place to tell people what to do, it's your grudge, nobody else's.

Mizzy

2 hours ago, Oban said:

 Casmo's vidoes played a huge part in the lure of getting it too, I'm going to blame him !!

Well, somebody has to be blamed

Mizzy

[DD_Friar]

2 hours ago, Oban said:

I bought the Apache on day 1, and of all the modules owned, this was my biggest regret, the learning curve was massive, and without proper controls, like a collective, it was that "magpie" syndrome, I think since purchasing, I've logged no more than 10 hours... that's definately not good value for money, Casmo's vidoes played a huge part in the lure of getting it too, I'm going to blame him !!

Just to show where there is "yin" there is "yang" - I love the Apache and have it as my main ride, with many many hours spent in it. yes there is a lot to learn, but you can very easily "put warheads on foreheads" from the pilot seat. I have gleaned a lot of information from Casmo and found his videos very useful.

I use a throttle as a collective by the way....

[Koriel]

31 minutes ago, Mizzy said:

Just curious, but if you don't care who's to blame, why put all the blame on ED? Also why do you feel DCS is not developer friendly when there is only one developer (who don't actually develop themselves) affected? My personal experience of Razbam is they were the same with other platforms (MSFS, Strike Fighters) they just left all their published add-ons without warning and re-emerged here in DCS and it looks like the same story is going to be repeated. 

Don't you think you should let other 'gamers' decide what they want to play rather than you telling them what they should do ! You are carrying a grudge that isn't really your place to tell people what to do, it's your grudge, nobody else's.

Mizzy

Last question first, people ask me, I answer. It might be "what are you playing now?" or "What would you recommend", my answers have changed over the last 6 or 8 months. If they ask why I'm not playing DCS anymore, I'll tell them.

I have a picture in my mind of who's to blame, and who's responsible for a solution. 

In a Reddit thread I am not allowed to refer to there are quite a few tidbits that don't reflect well on ED. Not bashing, actual supported facts. The Razbam conflict is not the first one ED has had. Previously Heatblur had to ask for and later even threaten legal action in august 2019. ED withheld payment to Heatblur for a very long time.

Razbam must have done something as well. But withholding payment so a third party developer can't continue anymore is in my opinion a very vile action. And to continue selling products from a third party and keeping the money is theft in my book. 

[Oban]

23 minutes ago, Koriel said:

Razbam must have done something as well. But withholding payment so a third party developer can't continue anymore is in my opinion a very vile action. And to continue selling products from a third party and keeping the money is theft in my book. 

If this was your business, you'd have a completely different perspective.

Using another companys IP without their knowledge in order to futher their own financial gains is also theft.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

33 minutes ago, Koriel said:

 And to continue selling products from a third party and keeping the money is theft in my book. 

The continued sales might be a contract stipulation or even anticipation of solution. Think of it this way: Both parties are working toward a solution. The hatchet gets buried, payment exchanged, etc., all that good stuff.

Now, what's more ideal from RB's position? A huge dearth of sales from the start of the issue until then? Or at least some form of backpay?

I can already hear you ask "Who is buying" and that'd be a very valid question in reply. My guess would be not as much as we'd like. But, something is better than nothing.

This is just my hunch, I lack a crystal ball.

Edited October 29, 2024 by MiG21bisFishbedL

[ssn]

2 minutes ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

The continued sales might be a contract stipulation or even anticipation of solution.

I see this funny theory repeated over and over here. That somehow ED hands are tied w.r.t. continued sales, but they are not where it comes to payment for the said sales.

[Oban]

2 minutes ago, ssn said:

I see this funny theory repeated over and over here. That somehow ED hands are tied w.r.t. continued sales, but they are not where it comes to payment for the said sales.

What you think you know, you don't.

Do you not think that all the knee jerk reactions of demanding refunds is actually hurting razbam more than it is ED?  It's less profits when the situation is resolved, and it will be resolved one way or the other, it's not going to remain a status quo..

[ssn]

13 minutes ago, Oban said:

18 minutes ago, ssn said:

I see this funny theory repeated over and over here. That somehow ED hands are tied w.r.t. continued sales, but they are not where it comes to payment for the said sales.

What you think you know, you don't.

Yeah, I don't know -- do you? We are talking about appearances and they are not great.
 

15 minutes ago, Oban said:

Do you not think that all the knee jerk reactions of demanding refunds is actually hurting razbam more than it is ED? 

I was not talking about refunds, and I do not wish harm to any of companies in this ecosystem. I would love DCS to thrive and on that account what's happenning bothers me a lot.  Regarding the question: I think refunds in store credit are fishy as well and solely benefit ED.

 

15 minutes ago, Oban said:

it will be resolved one way or the other, it's not going to remain a status quo..

[Esac_mirmidon]

4 hours ago, nessuno0505 said:

The only very complex airplane I own is the A-10C, both in the original version and in the version II, and it's the most complex plane I've studied in details; the second one being the ka-50 (both versions). I like to change sometimes, like you do, but the others airframes I own are all trainers or cold war, since they are easier to learn: f-5, mig-15, f-86, l-39, uh-1, mi-8, mb-339 (I'm italian). All bought when already out of early access. Then I have some maps and combined arms (bought by mistake: I had misread the description, I thought it was doing something else). Fortunately no RB modules, but I have been tempted several times to buy the AV-8B: I am very attracted by the naval VTOL operations; I never bought it given the biblical development times, the pitiful state in which it's always been (it doesn't even have a manual) and the very little trust I have always had in Razbam (apparently in the end not unjustified). I agree with you: warthunder is another kind of game. What I fear is that, as the modules increase, the complexity and the ability of the developers to keep up and fix all the bugs and systems decrease, and at some point they will no longer be able to offer us wonderful simulations rich of details and minutiae as the a-10C was and continues to be today. DCS today is closer to war thunder than it was 10 years ago and as I see it we really need a change of pace. The Razbam affair is just a symptom of a bigger problem.

 

So what is the Pocket Guide (126 pages), and the Harrier Manual (485 pages) inside Doc folder in your DCS Harrier installation?

Please enlight us.

Is inside Program Files\Eagle Dynamics\DCS World\Mods\aircraft\AV8BNA\Doc. If you dont have the Harrier i will be pleased to provide you a copy of both

Edited October 29, 2024 by Esac_mirmidon