waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[Oban]

5 minutes ago, afnav130 said:

I know what I know based upon the facts. I have former and some current .mil members and also commissioned officers in the USAF former and current who are saying they haven't been paid. Now, who didn't pay them? ED or RB? Nobody knows the truth to that without all the cards out on the table. I will tend to take their word since I was an AF Officer as well and usually lean towards trusting them and certainly more than you or quite frankly anyone defending ED to the hilt. 

Now as I said all this could be rendered moot if one party would plainly show in detail something that 100 percent refutes that. So yes, I know what I know based upon all available information. 

Who did they have a contract with, seeing as you know the facts ?

You just stated that nobody knows all the facts unless all the cards are on the table, and clearly they're not, and never will be until the situation has been resolved.

Just because you were an AF Officer, doesn't make you anymore a legal expert than myself, or any other forum member.

You're basing your thesis on a hunch just because they're former and current USAF, of whom you don't know who they have a contract with ??

I'm not defending ED to the hilt, I'm constantly stating that NOBODY knows the facts, or the terms and conditions between RB and ED, in which to make an informed opinion.

You on the other hand are defending Razbam to the hilt, despite being unable to provide proof of the contracts of said current and former USAF personnel that haven't been paid.

Oh and being an officer doesn't mean Jack shyt, I know plenty of Officers who are complete shytbirds, liars and dishonest too, and a disgrace to their uniform, and units.

So you want ED to lay their cards on the table, so put your money where your mouth is and show the terms and conditions of said Officers, and whom their employer was.

 

[afnav130]

28 minutes ago, Oban said:

Who did they have a contract with, seeing as you know the facts ?

You just stated that nobody knows all the facts unless all the cards are on the table, and clearly they're not, and never will be until the situation has been resolved.

Just because you were an AF Officer, doesn't make you anymore a legal expert than myself, or any other forum member.

You're basing your thesis on a hunch just because they're former and current USAF, of whom you don't know who they have a contract with ??

I'm not defending ED to the hilt, I'm constantly stating that NOBODY knows the facts, or the terms and conditions between RB and ED, in which to make an informed opinion.

You on the other hand are defending Razbam to the hilt, despite being unable to provide proof of the contracts of said current and former USAF personnel that haven't been paid.

Oh and being an officer doesn't mean Jack shyt, I know plenty of Officers who are complete shytbirds, liars and dishonest too, and a disgrace to their uniform, and units.

So you want ED to lay their cards on the table, so put your money where your mouth is and show the terms and conditions of said Officers, and whom their employer was.

 

I am not defending RB to the hilt, thats where you are incorrect. I have said in the past you can't take RB at their word, but I do take the worker bees who haven't been paid at their word.  They are two different entities. One is management, one is the workers.  

 

Want to know why nobody knows the facts? Because one side isn't talking at all. I won't respond do your dig at officers, because quite frankly thats beneath me so you go on, do you and have fun with that. 

[Hammer1-1]

1 hour ago, unlikely_spider said:

Like I said to the other guy, I think you know the difference between this situation and the normal early access experience.

it doesnt change the fact that its in an incomplete state. when they come to a decision on whether or not they move forward with it is when they need to put any sort of disclaimer on anything and it will only be directly to those who already own it (aka they no longer support the module, therefore it will only work in builds such and so). simply putting a disclaimer on it now will only prevent people from buying it, so you might as well just remove it from the store. Razbam obviously doesnt want that, ED obviously doesnt want that. Not sure why that doesnt really sink in..............

[Mizzy]

4 hours ago, exhausted said:

How does it not seem true at all? To answer your question, did you forget about VEAO? Why not Razbam? If my opinion appears to be nonsequitur, it may be that your framing may be so far off base that any reasonable possibility has to follow another track. You can't bring speculation when you yourself are telling others not to speculate, and then use a composition fallacy that just because something was true one time it is true all the time -- everything about the ED-Razbam dispute is entirely different than what you claim to have experienced.

 

Word salad and not worthy of debate, VEAO was a completely different case, do you not understand that !. Goodbye

Mizzy

Edited June 17, 2024 by Mizzy

[Oban]

56 minutes ago, afnav130 said:

I am not defending RB to the hilt, thats where you are incorrect. I have said in the past you can't take RB at their word, but I do take the worker bees who haven't been paid at their word.  They are two different entities. One is management, one is the workers.  

 

Want to know why nobody knows the facts? Because one side isn't talking at all. I won't respond do your dig at officers, because quite frankly thats beneath me so you go on, do you and have fun with that. 

And those worker bees, are they ED employees or Razbam employees? That tiny little bit of information is very significant , as the devil is in the details.

You keep intimating that you've got some sort of knowledge, when you don't have any.

One side isn't talking becuase they have been legally advised not to, what's so difficult to understand about that?

[afnav130]

2 hours ago, Oban said:

And those worker bees, are they ED employees or Razbam employees? That tiny little bit of information is very significant , as the devil is in the details.

You keep intimating that you've got some sort of knowledge, when you don't have any.

One side isn't talking becuase they have been legally advised not to, what's so difficult to understand about that?

So people who I trust say, "We haven't been paid in months" isn't knowledge? Maybe to you it isn't with your lawyer loving mentality. ED is reticent to say they have even paid them or not. Thats a fact as well. They could have said that right after RB made their case publicly as a rebuttal. They didn't. That speaks volumes to anyone who can see the bigger picture. Sorry you can't.

Maybe you can go find a lawyer to help you with that. It's working out swimmingly in this case. 

[Oban]

8 minutes ago, afnav130 said:

So people who I trust say, "We haven't been paid in months" isn't knowledge? Maybe to you it isn't with your lawyer loving mentality. ED is reticent to say they have even paid them or not. Thats a fact as well. They could have said that right after RB made their case publicly as a rebuttal. They didn't. That speaks volumes to anyone who can see the bigger picture. Sorry you can't.

Maybe you can go find a lawyer to help you with that. It's working out swimmingly in this case. 

Nice deflection !! How many times are you going to ignore the question about whom their employer is, and what's their terms and conditions state about remuneration?

You constantly keep ignoring the FACT that ED will not comment publically, despite the numerous times you've been told by the moderation team.

FACT, you do not know the reason for payment being witheld, and neither do the alleged "people you trust" , either show their contracts seeing as you want accountability and visibility, it works both ways.

I'm not the one needing a lawyer, it's your colleagues, and the parties involved in this dispute.

Don't pretend you know the "bigger picture " either, because you don't, and neither do your alleged colleagues. I don't need a lwayer to know you're just pissed off because ED are not playing YOUR game.

[nessuno0505]

6 ore fa, afnav130 ha scritto:

people who I trust

Maybe this is the problem. There's very little to trust in Razbam.

[Kiwispirits]

I do not understand the thundering silence of any further official statements from ED and Razbam.
I know that one reason many have given for this is that it might prejudice any ongoing legal discussions, but you can release official statements that are completely acceptable from a legal point of view along the lines of "Sorry for the delay, but we are still trying to work this out with the other party".

If you say nothing, then people will make things up and the resulting storm of speculation will (and has) damage both parties' reputation.

I find this lack of official communication totally baffling.

[BIGNEWY]

Threads merged. 

Apologies @Kiwispirits but we can not say much until the dispute has been resolved. Once we have a resolution we will be able to say more, there is a legal process to follow as you have already mentioned. 

thank you 

[felixx75]

37 minutes ago, Kiwispirits said:

I find this lack of official communication totally baffling.

What I have quoted below has already been written 100 times. There is nothing new, as soon as there is something new, we will find out. What else do you want to know...

30 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Threads merged. 

Apologies @Kiwispirits but we can not say much until the dispute has been resolved. Once we have a resolution we will be able to say more, there is a legal process to follow as you have already mentioned. 

thank you 

 

[BIGNEWY]

12 hours ago, Oban said:

ED's last 2 updates borked missiles and weapons on many 3rd party modules such as currenthills

Sorry to correct you, but they are not third partys, it is community mods. 

thank you

[Nightdare]

8 hours ago, afnav130 said:

So people who I trust say, "We haven't been paid in months" isn't knowledge? Maybe to you it isn't with your lawyer loving mentality. ED is reticent to say they have even paid them or not. Thats a fact as well. They could have said that right after RB made their case publicly as a rebuttal. They didn't. That speaks volumes to anyone who can see the bigger picture. Sorry you can't.

Maybe you can go find a lawyer to help you with that. It's working out swimmingly in this case. 

 

I have friends who I trust

When they tell me their boss isn't paying them, I ask "Why" and since we trust each other, they give me an honest answer

 

So,... why aren't your trusted friends getting paid?

[Oban]

3 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Sorry to correct you, but they are not third partys, it is community mods. 

thank you

That's the word ! I forgot what they were called I should know as I make them too LOL

[Mizzy]

19 hours ago, PhantomHans said:

I eagerly await ED's explanation of the real true reason why they will not pay Razbam.  I hear only silence.

I eagerly await ED's more informative commentary.  I hear only silence.

And you have been informed many times before why you only hear silence from ED (and Razbam for that matter), are you deaf !

Mizzy

[exhausted]

14 hours ago, Mizzy said:

Word salad and not worthy of debate, VEAO was a completely different case, do you not understand that !. Goodbye

Mizzy

 

I hesitate to give you more fuel to make this more about you, but you have been provided everything you asked for and I think you've tripped on the steps to your own denialism ladder. Thank you for letting the serious folks continue discussing.

5 hours ago, nessuno0505 said:

Maybe this is the problem. There's very little to trust in Razbam.

There is very little trust both ways, if you can't tell.

16 hours ago, Oban said:

Who did they have a contract with, seeing as you know the facts ?

You just stated that nobody knows all the facts unless all the cards are on the table, and clearly they're not, and never will be until the situation has been resolved.

Just because you were an AF Officer, doesn't make you anymore a legal expert than myself, or any other forum member.

You're basing your thesis on a hunch just because they're former and current USAF, of whom you don't know who they have a contract with ??

I'm not defending ED to the hilt, I'm constantly stating that NOBODY knows the facts, or the terms and conditions between RB and ED, in which to make an informed opinion.

You on the other hand are defending Razbam to the hilt, despite being unable to provide proof of the contracts of said current and former USAF personnel that haven't been paid.

Oh and being an officer doesn't mean Jack shyt, I know plenty of Officers who are complete shytbirds, liars and dishonest too, and a disgrace to their uniform, and units.

So you want ED to lay their cards on the table, so put your money where your mouth is and show the terms and conditions of said Officers, and whom their employer was.

 

We have a lot of information already, and I don't think you need every last detail to have an informed discussion. Even lawyers on the board know this.

If ED wants to give more information then they could. They may choose not to, and that's fine. But we know there's issues with lack of payment (already admitted), we know that there's a counter claim of IP infringement, we know Razbam modules are starting to atrophy, and we know that ED has had to remove a module in the past when it reached an impasse.

Assuming some of what both sides are saying is true, then we know that as end users we have an interest in discussion and in planning our purchases.

Edited June 17, 2024 by exhausted

[eFirehawk]

19 hours ago, PhantomHans said:

I eagerly await ED's explanation of the real true reason why they will not pay Razbam.  I hear only silence.

I eagerly await ED's more informative commentary.  I hear only silence.

I hate to break this to you, but ED will never really explain what happened behind the scenes. They will only announce the conclusion.

Common sense dictates that in a few months/years from now you're only gonna get something like this but with more words:

RAZBAM's F-15E module development officially stopped and RAZBAM is no longer a 3rd party developer for DCS World. Refunds for the F-15E module will be granted as store credits. Older modules will not be eligible for refunds.

As far as I remember, when the VEAO fiasco happened, ED did not share the real reasons of happened behind the scenes either.

[Hammer1-1]

4 hours ago, Nightdare said:

 

I have friends who I trust

When they tell me their boss isn't paying them, I ask "Why" and since we trust each other, they give me an honest answer

 

So,... why aren't your trusted friends getting paid?

yeah Im sure your friends will be honest with you and tell you that they were sitting on their butts all day long and eating the cookie dough in the freezer when their boss caught them. "they have enough money to not need to care about all that stuff".

Edited June 17, 2024 by Hammer1-1

[Nasder]

As a paying customer, the only thing I care about is simple.

Razbam gave us customers the short end of the stick. By cutting support for modules we've paid for the module(s) might stop working (even further) with any future patch of DCS. They should have done everything possible to fix new module-breaking bugs (F-15E radar for example) at bare minimum during the dispute.

I am sure they have their reasons to do what they did with support. But I don't really care about why, I care more about that they did it. If they at some point provide a reason I might think "That's a fair reason, still shouldn't do that to us customers."

Why this happened and any underlying issues are no real concern to me, as a paying customer I just want the modules I paid for to work properly with the current, and future, versions of DCS.

Am I being entitled by wanting the product I paid for to work as intended?

[Jayhawk1971]

At the very least, fix the Radar! It used to work, and it suddenly stopped working, one week after the last patch. 

 

 

 

Edited June 17, 2024 by Jayhawk1971

[Oban]

35 minutes ago, Jayhawk1971 said:

At the very least, fix the Radar! It used to work, and it suddenly stopped working, one week after the last patch. 

 

 

 

 

And if ED don't have access to the source code, why would you point to them as being the culprit for breaking the out of date .dll , of which the F15E wasn't updated?

I don't buy into anything malicious, from either Razbam, or ED in this case.

If ED don't have access to the source code, then it's going to be down to Razbam to fix, now, the way I see this, if RB's intentions are to resolve the situation, then as a gesture of good faith, and to appease the customers of their module, providing a hotfix for the outdated .dll would go a long way towards community reconciliation.

[PhantomHans]

1 hour ago, Mizzy said:

And you have been informed many times before why you only hear silence from ED (and Razbam for that matter), are you deaf !

Mizzy

Word salad.

[Ignition]

Just now, Oban said:

And if ED don't have access to the source code, why would you point to them as being the culprit for breaking the out of date .dll , of which the F15E wasn't updated?

I don't buy into anything malicious, from either Razbam, or ED in this case.

If ED don't have access to the source code, then it's going to be down to Razbam to fix, now, the way I see this, if RB's intentions are to resolve the situation, then as a gesture of good faith, and to appease the customers of their module, providing a hotfix for the outdated .dll would go a long way towards community reconciliation.

Razbam were giving updates for the F-15E with good faith for many months. I don't know why they should fix the aircraft now.

[Oban]

46 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

yeah Im sure your friends will be honest with you and tell you that they were sitting on their butts all day long and eating the cookie dough in the freezer when their boss caught them. "they have enough money to not need to care about all that stuff".

 

Having been involved in, and privy to remuneration disputes, most of my colleagues involved couldn't wait to berate their employer and call them all sorts of things, citing the clauses in their contracts of when remuneration should take place, even within the first 7 days of late payment, by the time it reaches 30 days late, the barrack room lawyers again  start citing legal action, and threaten to walk off the project.
After 60 days of non payment, they aired their grievance with the client, who then asks "why" too. Some take their case to their lawyers, who then ask the same questions.

After 90 days of non payment, and things don't look like improving, and savings have been eaten into, they terminated their contracts, forfeiting all pay, and put it down to unresolved and unreconcilable differences, which in turn made the company no contractually compliant due to the loss of 30% of the manpower, which in turn was a further breach of contract between the company and the client, who then terminated their contract, resulting in EVERYONE losing their jobs..

This all heppened in the Middle East, where there was no legal infrastructure in place where workers were protected.

When it comes to salaries, everyone has to look after their own interests, and self preservation kicks in.

The terms and conditions of your contract in places like the USA and UK, are legal binding documents, and you are protected by various work laws, in this case, AFNAV's colleagues would also be afforded the same protection

[maxTRX]

Lots of advice here for ED. I'm sure they're reading every post and taking it to heart (LOL)

With that in mind, here's my advice:  Fire the lawyers and other 'elements',  Hire more good coders and do everything yourself = better integration, easier to debug and harden the entire package (especially around updates),  Finish... or at least debug one or two of your own jets just to show you can do it.  Multi-thread... well, I'll leave that one alone since the single thread is still available. --  Or... keep on the current path, whatever the priorities are