The Rookie Thread

[arkroyale048]

So basically... I fly around with the trimmer set.... Hold the trimmer... Make a maneuver... Release trimmer... Rinse and repeat ?

 

I seem to be getting the notion that this is how the Blackshark should be flown ?

 

Forgive the noobish notion, but I am after all starting from scratch :)

[Yurgon]

What I meant was turning in place while on hover. In which I use gentle taps on the rudder.

 

Ah, okay, in that case turning with the rudder is definitely the recommended way to turn. :)

 

You said you didn't want to go into the weapon systems yet, but did you do some targeting practice by chance? There's a feature called "Auto Turn to Target". If that is switched on and your Shkval targeting system is active, the chopper will always try to turn towards the target. That might explain the type of turning you described.

 

As soon as you post a track, we can take a look at it and probably give you more precise pointers on what's happening. :thumbup:

 

I've been told that it has to do with the real life physics of a coax helicopter and helicopters in general.

 

The craft simply wants to go into the rotation of the rotors (right I believe) so one has to compensate with a little left cyclic.

 

That effect comes from the torque that is generated by the transmission acting on the rotor shaft (*).

 

The beauty of Kamov's counter-rotating coaxial design is that the torque forces generated by rotating the two rotor shafts in opposite directions basically cancel each other out. That means that you'll need almost no rudder input when you take off in a Ka-50.

 

The torque effect is much more pronounced in choppers like the UH-1H and the Mi-8MTV2 that both feature the traditional layout of single main rotor + anti-torque tail rotor.

 

(That doesn't mean that there are no torque forces acting on the Ka-50, but going into the intricacies of these effects would go beyond the scope of your question, I believe :))

 

(*) Non-native speaker here. I think the description is correct, but I'll gladly correct it if it's wrong.

[Flagrum]

So basically... I fly around with the trimmer set.... Hold the trimmer... Make a maneuver... Release trimmer... Rinse and repeat ?

 

I seem to be getting the notion that this is how the Blackshark should be flown ?

 

Forgive the noobish notion, but I am after all starting from scratch :)

Not basically ... but absolutely! :o)

But there are two "schools" of Blackshark pilots out there. One like to do exactly what you described, the other likes to trim incrementally. That means, they click trim (press and immediately release the trimmer button) very often during any maneuver. You can see this especially RL Ka-50 pilots doing (search youtube videos).

 

And just to add a bit to what Yurgon replied about the torque effect (posting 1007): that effect is very fundamental principle for conventional helos - that is why these helos have a tail rotor. You control that tail rotor with your "rudder"-pedals to counter the torque effect.

 

BUT the Ka-50 is different here. The rotors cancel each others torque effect out, like Yurgon said. So that is not the effect that makes your helo turn when in hover - the Blackshark is very stable in this regard. I am pretty confident that it has rather to do with the heading hold mode as I said earlier. :o)

 

edit:

I am not saying anything was wrong what Yurgon said, just tried to make sure that the torque effects are not responsible for what you experienced. In fact, when adding power/raising the collective to take off, the torque of the two rotors are not exactly the same and thus the helo does turn a bit that you should counter manually by applying rudder. But that effect is minimal at best and only present when changing the collective setting. If you are in a stable hover, such minimal torque differnces are automatically countered by the stabilization system.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Flagrum

[arkroyale048]

Hello again,

 

I apologize for the tardy reply... Work has been a killer recently and it will remain so for another week.

 

Here's a short track of me putting the Ka-50 in its paces. As you can see I have totally zero confidence on how to get things done with the aircraft. Hopefully that improves soon.

 

 

 

As for my statement where I refuse to learn weaponry and other aspects of the Ka-50. What I meant was that my intention if to fully master the flight characteristics of the Shark first, before I step into the world of weapons employment and other advanced BlackShark operations.

 

My short term goal is to be able to at least 'dance' the Shark around a flagpole with confidence as well as having the Shark do what my mind intends to do and translate it into control inputs to execute as such.

 

Then I can consider learning the other stuff.

 

 

Positive feedback would be very much appreciated, thanks

Ka-50 Testflight.trk

[Bushmanni]

Positive feedback would be very much appreciated, thanks

 

I'm suspecting the track playback was corrupted as you were flying uncoordinated pretty much the whole time even when flying straight, engaged auto-hover when flying about 80km/h and ended up leaning on the right wing after landing at the far end of the runway.

 

In any case controls indicator showed that you weren't using rudder when turning which results in uncoordinated turns. Flying coordinated means that the nose is pointing straight towards the airflow which minimizes drag and also helps to make the chopper behave much more gentler. The proper way to turn a chopper in forward flight is to roll to the direction you are turning and use rudders to keep the nose pointed towards the airflow. Helicopters tend to need much more babysitting in this regard than fixed wings. Ka-50 has wind vanes at the nose that can be used as reference. The vertical vanes should be almost invisible during flight.

 

When rolling fast the nose tends to yaw at the opposite direction in proportion to roll speed (ie. faster the roll, the more nose yaws). If you counter this by pressing the pedal to the same direction you roll, the chopper will stay coordinated even during roll and it's easier and faster to establish a proper coordinated turn.

 

Your control inputs were mostly very smooth which was nice.

[roob]

Here's a short track of me putting the Ka-50 in its paces. As you can see I have totally zero confidence on how to get things done with the aircraft. Hopefully that improves soon.

 

You are not using the trimmer as you are supposed to.

 

My short term goal is to be able to at least 'dance' the Shark around a flagpole with confidence as well as having the Shark do what my mind intends to do and translate it into control inputs to execute as such.

 

Positive feedback would be very much appreciated, thanks

 

Challenge accepted! :pilotfly:

 

Posted a track. At the end I'm showing you the basics of the trimmer in action.

I don't know about this analogy, but... just for the lulz.

 

Definition controls: Stick, Rudder

 

Imagine whenever you press the trim button, you take a photo of your controls. The controls in that photo are so awesome to the autopilot, it cannot stop looking at that one photo. It wants to be that photo, so it becomes that photo. You tell it to stop but it just sits there ignoring. That is because the autopilot talks to no one but the helicopter.

The helicopter is the autopilot's master.

 

You, on the other hand, are the helicopter's master.

 

When you move the controls, the helicopter move the controls, but the autopilot does not.It is still daydreaming about that photo.

So you slap (trim) the helicopter, tells it to show this new awesome photo to the autopilot. The helicopter obeys, and passes the photo along to the autopilot which yet again becomes completely awestruck.

 

 

Explanation taken from the Ka-420 manual.

I did not cover the altitude "trim" button (can't remember what it's called).

Poledance.trk

[Yurgon]

Here's a short track of me putting the Ka-50 in its paces. As you can see I have totally zero confidence on how to get things done with the aircraft. Hopefully that improves soon.

 

That doesn't look so bad. Actually, your control looks pretty good and solid for a new pilot. :thumbup:

 

There are lots of small things I would point out. Bushmanni and roob already commented on coordinated turns and use of the trimmer. But actually, I think you're on a good path here and really just need to take your time, experiment, and get comfortable with the Ka-50. I know my first flights looked much, much worse. :)

 

As for my statement where I refuse to learn weaponry and other aspects of the Ka-50. What I meant was that my intention if to fully master the flight characteristics of the Shark first, before I step into the world of weapons employment and other advanced BlackShark operations.

 

If you refer to my question, I think I understood your intention quite well. I was only trying to find out if you had already progressed to the targeting system, which could have offered an explanation for some of the problems you described.

 

But if I understand correctly, you didn't use the targeting system, so my question led to confusion instead of clarification. Sorry about that. :music_whistling:

 

My short term goal is to be able to at least 'dance' the Shark around a flagpole with confidence as well as having the Shark do what my mind intends to do and translate it into control inputs to execute as such.

 

That sounds like a very good and solid plan. :thumbup:

 

I'm suspecting the track playback was corrupted as you were flying uncoordinated pretty much the whole time even when flying straight, engaged auto-hover when flying about 80km/h and ended up leaning on the right wing after landing at the far end of the runway.

 

That sounds like the description of the playback I saw, so I guess the track plays back okay for us.

 

I don't remember Auto Hover being engaged, but that could just be because I didn't see it in the playback.

 

Definition controls: Stick, Rudder

 

Imagine whenever you press the trim button, you take a photo of your controls. [...]

 

Wow, awesome description. :)

[arkroyale048]

Pardon again for the tardy reply.

 

As far as I know; there is nothing wrong with the track. What you see there is what happened. Including the crash when I attempted to land.

 

Yes I did engage that auto hover thinking I'm already slow enough to do so.

[tsumikae]

Auto-hover should be engaged when you're almost in an acceptable hover, actually. For it to work properly, your speed prior to engaging it should not exceed 5.

 

Maybe you knew that already, but just in case: your hud helps you getting more stable. When your speed drops below 50, a vector appears on your hud, indicating your helo overall heading and speed. Your goal is to nullify that vector with control inputs that are basically in the opposite direction.

[arkroyale048]

Here's lil ole me trying the shark again. I think I performed better this time. Though I was messing around with the Shkval and I lost the speed indicator on the HUD. Went through the whole flight without it. Landing went somewhat better. Though I think I broke something on the way down. Landed it somewhat like a fixed wing aircraft. I still can't do that hover and descent thing.

KA-50.rar

[Bushmanni]

Your flying looked pretty much the same as last time except it was even more random looking this time and you pitched nose up soon after taking off and crashed the chopper tail first to ground and exploded in a glorious fireball. I'm pretty sure both of your tracks were more or less broken. Have you checked them yourself before uploading that they actually show what really happened and you have the latest version of DCS World?

 

Best way to learn hovering is practicing hover landings. Take off from FARP, fly a little circle so as to pick up some speed (about 100km/h should be enough) and then land. Try to land exactly at the center of the FARP pad (rotor hub is smack in the middle when viewed from above). Repeat this for 10-20 times and then do it again next day. Keep doing this routine about twice a week until it feels too easy. Then do it again after a week or two.

 

Descent is easy as long as you don't do it while hovering. You should keep at least about 70-100km/h forward speed while descending fast to avoid VRS. Don't try to land like the AI does by stopping above the pad at 15m and then slowly hovering down to the pad. You can't see down at all and you could very easily drift over other pad and hit other choppers when coming down. Even if you are careful it takes lots of time and extra effort to land this way. Better way is to come down in 10-30 degree slope 30-10km/h so that you fly towards the landing spot and see where you are going. Gradually slow down the forward and descent speed while coming closer to ground.

 

The following link shows the idea of an easy landing style.

[arkroyale048]

Something must have gone wrong with the track upon uploading and downloading. I don't recall crashing tail first and exploding in a giant fireball. I did view the track and everything was normal.

[tsumikae]

It's so wrong that I can't even read it: the game crashes upon opening the track. Maybe it's an issue on my side. Do you use mods?

[arkroyale048]

Nope... not using any mods.

[Rogue Trooper]

Tracks are playing up lately, I watched a track last week from a mission:

 

I took out all long range threats and then moved in to take out the AA gun vehicles from 2.5KM using the Kamov's cannon.

 

However when I watched the track I took out every long range threat except a group of 4 anti-tank missile armed APCs which hit me whilst I was in a nice steady hover for cannon firing.......

this was not how the mission went.

 

No mods, no reticle mods.

[arkroyale048]

Made a few more freeflights tonight...

 

Happy to report that I'm now able to enter hover state... albeit with a drift in a random direction.

 

Tried activating the auto hover mode as soon as I got my airspeed lowered to at least 10. Found that it wants to nose down for some reason.

[Bushmanni]

Glad to know you are making progress.

 

It's not enough to get the choppers speed under 10km/h but you need to also trim it for that state or the autopilots authority won't be enough to keep the chopper in hover. If the chopper is trimmed for forward flight it will try to push nose down in hover. You also must have FD disengaged for the autohover to work.

 

The trick about hovering is to know the neutral attitude where the chopper won't accelerate in any direction and understand that tilting the chopper causes acceleration in the direction of the tilt. If you engage autohover successfully it will bring the chopper to the current neutral state.

 

Ka-50 is in neutral state at hover with nose up about 5(+-2) degrees and pylons level. The actual required pitch and roll for neutral state depend on your loadout as fuel and weapons will change the CG. If there's wind you naturally need to lean to the wind a bit. When the chopper is in neutral state it will stay put or keep going to the direction it was going. For example if you need to slide right you don't keep the chopper tilted right all the time but you tilt right for maybe one second and then level it and the chopper will keep going slowly and steadily to the right until you make similar tilt to the left that will "neutralize" the velocity component to the right and stop the chopper. These kind of small and short tilts will be enough for precise maneuvering but if you need to move faster than about 15km/h you will start to keep the chopper tilted to overcome drag.

 

You can make hovering flight very easy for yourself by trimming the chopper for hover and disengaging FD. Now the chopper will automatically always return to the neural state when you let go of the stick so now the cyclic controls your lateral acceleration instead of pitch and roll.

[arkroyale048]

Back again.... Finally managed to free myself from the clutches of work. Now I have more time for learning and flying the Shark.

 

I've made a bigger leap this time.

 

-> I can now utilize the Vikhr missiles

-> Use the associated (autopilot ?) assists to help me turn into targets

-> As mentioned before, you can literally let the aircraft fly itself and you concentrate on flying the mission. Have already done so.

-> Just mastered the startup procedures.

-> Can now utilize the cannon and it's associated functions.

 

 

I still need work on:

 

Flying the aircraft (when not flying the mission)

Making it go where I really want it to go.

The aircraft somewhat flies recalcitrant against me for some unknown reason.

 

My landings are still horrible.

[tsumikae]

I tried and didn't like the trim constantly method so for other people who are having trouble with it, try this:

 

After takeoff trim for a hover with roll and pitch AP on

Never trim again

Only use heading and altitude AP when you want to hold a steady heading and altitude in a HOVER

Never trim the rudder, leave it centered

 

This allows to to quickly get into a hover by simply letting go of the stick, although it'll be violent if you do so so just let go gradually while compensating with the collective for lift as you slow.

Don't be afraid of not flying perfectly straight and level. As long as you're going to the right spot nobody cares if you're in a 3° roll or if your nose isn't pointing exactly to the direction you're moving. Besides, you'll have more style :P

 

I'd be surprised if those 3° roll and less than good heading are not what will make you love your trim button and get used to trimming in the KA, after a while :D

 

Have you tried the flight director? It seems to me that it would fit your flying style nicely. But maybe I'm wrong.

[tsumikae]

I think you're not lazy enough for your own good.

 

Here's how I use the trim: with at least three AP channels on, I hold the trimmer, point my machine in the good direction, at a convenient speed, release the trimmer and yell "to infinity, and beyond" (not mandatory). And the nice AP takes me there, smooth as silk. That's how lazy I am.

 

You can be even lazier, thanks to the AP. If your PVI800 has a WP route programmed, just check that at three (mandatory) AP channels are on, engage en-route mode, and go to sleep. No trim involved.

[roob]

Nothing wrong with that! My reasons for this "alternate" style are:

 

I ran out of travel in the stick if I was trimmed too far in one direction to pull the stick in the opposite direction

Too much work to change direction and get all "set up" again

Took too long to get into hover

 

Basically you're telling and re-telling the chopper to do something, and you'll have to manually stop it. For me I like to manually control the chopper and have it stop itself when I stop directing it.

 

Besides, the way I fly I never want to be going in one direction very long anyway so every time I set it up id have to change it again anyway!

 

One day you'll look back at this post and laugh :smartass:

[arkroyale048]

Back again..... pleased that we are on the topic of flying styles because that's what I'm about to ask.

 

But first... progress report:

 

I can pretty much fly the Shark to whatever my mind thinks off... The hands that control the cyclic and collective now naturally move according to what maneuver I want to pull. Still rough around the edges but it's improving.

 

I am now able to do combat missions in the Shark. Started learning on the avionics as well with a little help from a few of my squadmates.

 

I can now more or less 'dance' the Shark around a flag pole as stated in my previous goal, a few pages back.

 

Happy to report that I'm loving the Shark all-throughout. It came to a point where it has severely cut into my stick-time on the A-10 and the F-15.

 

 

 

Now on the topic of flying style.

 

I have tried a few flying styles recently.

 

1) Hold trim - Maneuver - Release Trim - Rinse - Repeat

2) Trim once (in a while) - Deactivate Heading Hold AP Channel - Maneuver - Reactivate Heading Hold AP Channel

3) Trim once (in a while) - Flight Director Mode on

 

 

I've scratched out number 2 as it feels too cumbersome for me for some reason.

 

number 1 is the style I use on missions. I've been reading up on tactics on how to bring the Shark into combat. This style of flying seems reminiscent of a sniper, looking for good positions. Shoot. Rinse and repeat. This style is very 'tactical'. It allows me to plan my route ahead; taking into consideration known threats and the terrain. The disadvantage I see with this is that if you suddenly have the need to maneuver. You are frantically maneuvering while holding the trimmer button. Which kinds of feel awkward in my opinion and puts a little strain on the wrists.

 

Number 3 is good for 'free-flying'. I use this when I know I'm going to be maneuvering a lot (i.e. going through valleys). It gives me the freedom I need to maneuver the Shark and not get the associated strain on the wrists. The only problem I have with this is that when I come to a point where I need to be tactical. I then switch the Number 1. The disadvantage is that it takes time (need to retrim, slow down for hover, engage auto hover, etc.) For that I need to turn off Flight Director.

 

 

I am trying to put the two flying styles into a seamless whole when I'm running a mission.

 

 

How about you guys ? How do you bring the Shark into combat ?

[Fishbreath]

How about you guys ? How do you bring the Shark into combat ?

 

These days, I exclusively fly the style you listed as #1. It took a lot of hours, but I'm plenty comfortable these days using it even in relatively tight spots. If I really need to fly precisely, I'll go flight director mode, but it's not often that I find it's called for. (I'll happily trim for a turn through a valley, or for a turn away from the target area after I've made a rocket pass, and let the autopilot fly it for me.)

[Yurgon]

I tried and didn't like the trim constantly method so for other people who are having trouble with it, try this:[...]

 

Nothing wrong with that! My reasons for this "alternate" style are:[...]

 

I was going to argue why it's not the preferred way to do things like you proposed, but then I realized you just played an elaborate April's fools joke on us. Proposing that flying style was an April's fools joke, right? :D

 

Now on the topic of flying style.

 

I have tried a few flying styles recently.

 

1) Hold trim - Maneuver - Release Trim - Rinse - Repeat

2) Trim once (in a while) - Deactivate Heading Hold AP Channel - Maneuver - Reactivate Heading Hold AP Channel

3) Trim once (in a while) - Flight Director Mode on

[...]

 

When I started flying the Black Shark, the Flight Director seemed to be the magical button that made for a great and enjoyable flight experience. But the more combat missions I flew, the less I used it. I'm doing very little BS flying nowadays, but when I do, I hardly ever use the Flight Director.

 

But for the same reasons you mentioned, I like to keep it mapped to my HOTAS so that I can get all the FD flexibility when the need arises, like evading SAMs or doing quick NOE ingress/egress, so mixing the styles 1) and 3) from your list seems to be the way to go for me -- although it's quite common for more experienced pilots to state that they never, ever use Flight Director, but obviously I'm not that experienced yet. :D

 

These days, I exclusively fly the style you listed as #1. It took a lot of hours, but I'm plenty comfortable these days using it even in relatively tight spots. If I really need to fly precisely, I'll go flight director mode, but it's not often that I find it's called for. (I'll happily trim for a turn through a valley, or for a turn away from the target area after I've made a rocket pass, and let the autopilot fly it for me.)

 

Yup, from my point of view, that pretty much hits the nail on the head. :thumbup:

[arkroyale048]

Of one were to fly using the Style #1... what do you do when you encountered the dreaded "Warning: Under Attack" from Betty ?

 

Nowadays though I'm more comfortable going into combat with style #1... Just that things really get hectic when I get the said warning.