The Rookie Thread

[roob]

Nothing wrong with that! My reasons for this "alternate" style are:

 

I ran out of travel in the stick if I was trimmed too far in one direction to pull the stick in the opposite direction

Too much work to change direction and get all "set up" again

Took too long to get into hover

 

Basically you're telling and re-telling the chopper to do something, and you'll have to manually stop it. For me I like to manually control the chopper and have it stop itself when I stop directing it.

 

Besides, the way I fly I never want to be going in one direction very long anyway so every time I set it up id have to change it again anyway!

 

One day you'll look back at this post and laugh :smartass:

[arkroyale048]

Back again..... pleased that we are on the topic of flying styles because that's what I'm about to ask.

 

But first... progress report:

 

I can pretty much fly the Shark to whatever my mind thinks off... The hands that control the cyclic and collective now naturally move according to what maneuver I want to pull. Still rough around the edges but it's improving.

 

I am now able to do combat missions in the Shark. Started learning on the avionics as well with a little help from a few of my squadmates.

 

I can now more or less 'dance' the Shark around a flag pole as stated in my previous goal, a few pages back.

 

Happy to report that I'm loving the Shark all-throughout. It came to a point where it has severely cut into my stick-time on the A-10 and the F-15.

 

 

 

Now on the topic of flying style.

 

I have tried a few flying styles recently.

 

1) Hold trim - Maneuver - Release Trim - Rinse - Repeat

2) Trim once (in a while) - Deactivate Heading Hold AP Channel - Maneuver - Reactivate Heading Hold AP Channel

3) Trim once (in a while) - Flight Director Mode on

 

 

I've scratched out number 2 as it feels too cumbersome for me for some reason.

 

number 1 is the style I use on missions. I've been reading up on tactics on how to bring the Shark into combat. This style of flying seems reminiscent of a sniper, looking for good positions. Shoot. Rinse and repeat. This style is very 'tactical'. It allows me to plan my route ahead; taking into consideration known threats and the terrain. The disadvantage I see with this is that if you suddenly have the need to maneuver. You are frantically maneuvering while holding the trimmer button. Which kinds of feel awkward in my opinion and puts a little strain on the wrists.

 

Number 3 is good for 'free-flying'. I use this when I know I'm going to be maneuvering a lot (i.e. going through valleys). It gives me the freedom I need to maneuver the Shark and not get the associated strain on the wrists. The only problem I have with this is that when I come to a point where I need to be tactical. I then switch the Number 1. The disadvantage is that it takes time (need to retrim, slow down for hover, engage auto hover, etc.) For that I need to turn off Flight Director.

 

 

I am trying to put the two flying styles into a seamless whole when I'm running a mission.

 

 

How about you guys ? How do you bring the Shark into combat ?

[Fishbreath]

How about you guys ? How do you bring the Shark into combat ?

 

These days, I exclusively fly the style you listed as #1. It took a lot of hours, but I'm plenty comfortable these days using it even in relatively tight spots. If I really need to fly precisely, I'll go flight director mode, but it's not often that I find it's called for. (I'll happily trim for a turn through a valley, or for a turn away from the target area after I've made a rocket pass, and let the autopilot fly it for me.)

[Yurgon]

I tried and didn't like the trim constantly method so for other people who are having trouble with it, try this:[...]

 

Nothing wrong with that! My reasons for this "alternate" style are:[...]

 

I was going to argue why it's not the preferred way to do things like you proposed, but then I realized you just played an elaborate April's fools joke on us. Proposing that flying style was an April's fools joke, right? :D

 

Now on the topic of flying style.

 

I have tried a few flying styles recently.

 

1) Hold trim - Maneuver - Release Trim - Rinse - Repeat

2) Trim once (in a while) - Deactivate Heading Hold AP Channel - Maneuver - Reactivate Heading Hold AP Channel

3) Trim once (in a while) - Flight Director Mode on

[...]

 

When I started flying the Black Shark, the Flight Director seemed to be the magical button that made for a great and enjoyable flight experience. But the more combat missions I flew, the less I used it. I'm doing very little BS flying nowadays, but when I do, I hardly ever use the Flight Director.

 

But for the same reasons you mentioned, I like to keep it mapped to my HOTAS so that I can get all the FD flexibility when the need arises, like evading SAMs or doing quick NOE ingress/egress, so mixing the styles 1) and 3) from your list seems to be the way to go for me -- although it's quite common for more experienced pilots to state that they never, ever use Flight Director, but obviously I'm not that experienced yet. :D

 

These days, I exclusively fly the style you listed as #1. It took a lot of hours, but I'm plenty comfortable these days using it even in relatively tight spots. If I really need to fly precisely, I'll go flight director mode, but it's not often that I find it's called for. (I'll happily trim for a turn through a valley, or for a turn away from the target area after I've made a rocket pass, and let the autopilot fly it for me.)

 

Yup, from my point of view, that pretty much hits the nail on the head. :thumbup:

[arkroyale048]

Of one were to fly using the Style #1... what do you do when you encountered the dreaded "Warning: Under Attack" from Betty ?

 

Nowadays though I'm more comfortable going into combat with style #1... Just that things really get hectic when I get the said warning.

[Fishbreath]

Well, about half the time I die and read the briefing more carefully. :P

[Hunden Ynk]

What Fishbreath said. And for me, another recipe for disaster is any time I try being too fancy and/or too fast. Slow and dull is good for my virtual health.

[arkroyale048]

Is there any way I can crash stop a Ka-50 from 250++ kph to near hover state in a short distance and not much altitude change or gain ?

[Fishbreath]

If you chop the collective to nil, you can nose up about 20 degrees at 250+ kph without gaining altitude. (Feed the collective back in as your speed drops.) That'll slow you down fast.

 

It's important to remember the helicopter pilot's mantra: slow is smooth and smooth is fast. Only nosing up 20 degrees feels like you're not slowing down all that fast, but you have a lot of energy to shed from 250kph to 0.

 

There are also some tricks with using turns to buy you steeper deceleration, but I'm not qualified to describe those.

[Bushmanni]

The quickest way to stop is to make a hard break turn to reduce speed to about 100km/h and then stop using basic flare (flare = decelerate by pulling nose up). Easier method is to just make a straight flare but it will take a little bit more time and distance but it will be lot more safer and easier to do. I'll try to make a video of both maneuvers with Ka-50 today but here's a link to real life quick stop maneuver with NH90.

 

 

You can do this much quicker with Ka-50 and in simulator but the basics of the maneuver are the same. First make a tight turn to kill most of the speed and then stop using flare. The reason why you don't turn all the way until you stop is that you will enter VRS at the end part of the turn when your speed gets slow enough. As long as your pitch is less than 30 degrees and wings level when entering VRS zone you are going to be safe.

 

Flare stop is done first by lowering collective slowly enough that you can control altitude with pitch. When your pitch reaches 30 degrees you keep it there and start controlling altitude with collective gradually increasing it until you have stopped. Deceleration will be slow at first but when pitch angle reaches 30 your speed is dropping very rapidly. If you can't keep up with the collective you might want to use shallower angle at first to make the deceleration slower.

[tsumikae]

Bushmanni and Fishbreath described two tactics you should use to come to a stop fast. Here's another one you probably should not use (note the emphasis on "probably"): slam your collective to nul, and go for a cobra (that's 90°, nose to the sky) as fast as you can. Maintain the angle for 2 seconds or less. Brutal stop garanteed. Also, good luck with the aftermath :p

 

You'll gain altitude, albeit not much if you're fast enough. The success of the maneuver essentially rely on your ability to release the barbarian inside you. Think "Conan in a chopper".

[Bushmanni]

What Tsumikae described is the fastest way to stop if you don't need to stay low, but you might not want to pull full 90 degrees nose up, about 50 will do it just fine and hold it a bit longer. It's a good maneuver to have in your bag of tricks.

 

It's good to know and remember one important thing regarding hard turns and decelerations which is that rotor usually goes into autorotation during these maneuvers and soon after engines go to idle and when you stop the maneuver you will suddenly need hover power which the engines can't produce for a few seconds but until they spool up again. Rotor RPM will droop for a while and if you are at low altitude after stopping you will hit the ground usually hard enough to break something. To mitigate this you need to come out of the autorotation part early enough before stopping to have power available in the hover.

 

Now to the quick stop and flare maneuvers:

 

I managed to pull of good examples (well at least I'm satisfied with them) of said maneuvers and found out that fully loaded Ka-50 isn't able to pull 30 degrees pitch during flare without problems. Essentially the engine won't be able to catch up when stopping and you won't be able to keep the nose pointed forward during autorotation because of reduced yaw authority. The nose direction is more of a show-off problem as sideslip will just make the chopper slow down more effectively. About 20 degrees pitch was most that I could pull off. You might be able to go to 30 degrees with light load but I didn't try that.

 

When you start quick stop maneuver lower the collective about half way down and make a hard turn left or right. Control rotor RPM and altitude with bank angle and G-load. Don't try to make the initial turn too hard but gradually pull the aircraft in the turn. Altitude control is particularly hard with this maneuver as when you are sideways you can't control vertical speed with collective and it reacts only slowly to changes in bank angle. Therefore it's better to climb a little than to try to stay very low. If you really need to stay low you should make a more shallow (less bank angle) turn with lots of sideslip instead so you can control altitude also with collective. Rotor RPM will rise at the beginning of the turn(or engine RPM drop, depending on collective setting) but at some point when you slow down it will start to drop. After it starts rising again pull collective gradually as much as engines can handle. Don't look at the RPM needles but listen to the sound of the engines and rotor instead. Pulling collective will provide extra muscle to stop the aircraft and keep up the engine RPM for hovering after you have stopped. After your speed has dropped below 100km/h you should straighten the chopper and flare to a hover.

 

Basic mistake is lowering the collective all the way down when starting the turn and autorotating the rotor which just makes the deceleration slower and puts you into the "engines at idle" trap. Also if you don't lower the collective enough the rotors will clash when you start the turn. Other mistake is to make the initial turn too hard which leads very likely to either significant climb or crash as you have trouble controlling the altitude. One other mistake is to keep turning hard too long and entering VRS.

 

The flare stop is already described in my previous post, just change the 30 degrees to 20. The basic mistake is to flare too hard and get in to the "engines at idle" trap.

 

Examples of the maneuvers:

[arkroyale048]

I think I would avoid doing the cobra-thing :)

 

@bushmani

 

Ahhh kind sir... I was waiting for you to turn up here again. I actually saw your video first before I saw your post. Have subscribed to your channel a few days back. Love your Ka-50 videos. I can see that you're a truly pro pilot of the Shark.

 

I saw you pull the same first maneuver in another video of yours. I think it was the one where you shot down an F-15C using the Vikhr.... I was also wondering at that time... How the heck did you do a crash stop like that ?

 

Wanna talk about the first maneuver first.

 

So if I'm getting this correctly... You bank... Rudder in the opposite direction of the bank, while at the same time adjusting the collective to prevent any rise and dips.

 

Is there any danger in this maneuver to enter a vortex ring state when executed improperly ?

[Bushmanni]

If you look carefully my controls indicator you can see that first I apply rudder to the direction of the bank to keep the nose down as I pull back on the cyclic. At some point the nose drops a bit too low and I move rudder opposite direction to the bank to get it up again. You will have to start with rudder to the direction of the bank but after that you move it where it's required to control nose position. If I had managed to keep the nose at horizon at the later part of the turn I would have been able to stop even faster as I had nose down when leveling the chopper which means I was accelerating for a moment. Nailing a perfect max performance quick stop is hard and especially if you try to maintain your altitude during it. If you make it gentler like in the NH90 video it will be safe and even look pretty.

 

In order for VRS to develop you need to have fast enough flow through the rotor upwards and then apply power to try to reverse the flow. Instead of flow reversion a donut ring vortex develops. If the flow goes fast enough sideways the donut vortex can't form as the vortexes are swept away from the rotor by the flow. As long as you have enough lateral speed (>~50km/h) it's impossible for VRS to form. You can try to make the break turn all the way until you stop and see what happens when speed goes under 50km/h.

[arkroyale048]

Been trying to attempt the said maneuver with mixed results.... I'll let you know if I'm having any difficulties.

 

On another note;

with regards to the Vikhrs.

 

I just flew a multiplayer mission where I need to neutralize enemy units on an enemy airfield.

 

My Vikhrs seem to want to veer off target about 2 to 3 kliks short of the target (was watching the F6 view of the missile).

 

I am well within launch parameters of the Vikhr. 5-6 Km distance, stable hover, laser is on, waited for the launch cue, etc.

 

Is there anything I'm doing wrong ?

[GGTharos]

Is there wind? (Try to post a track of this happening too ... the shorter the track the better)

[arkroyale048]

No wind... Unfortunately it's a huge track... It came from a multiplayer server.

[GGTharos]

Can you make a short video or take a sequence of screenshots when it happens?

[arkroyale048]

Unfortunately not... it's way too long into the mission....

 

I might have a guess though....

 

Does this happen when your laser is burned out ?

[Yurgon]

Does this happen when your laser is burned out ?

 

Depends. Try locking the target again. If you get a range reading and the "C" launch authorization, then the laser still works.

 

If the laser is not available for whatever reason, there won't be any range information when locking (and therefore ranging) a target, and without range there's no launch authorization.

[tsumikae]

So obviously, if your laser is burned out, you would not know that you are at 5-6 km from your target by reading the Schkval only, and you would not get the "C" clearance. Hence your laser is not burned out.

 

I'll make another wild guess. Is, by any chance, the auto/manual switch for weapon release on "manual"? If it is on "manual", you'll always get "C" displayed and will be able to fire your missile, even if your firing angle and/or range is completely incorrect.

[Bushmanni]

I have experienced a mysterious Vikhr guidance failure once. There was no excessive wind and laser was working just fine. The missile flew as should for a few kilometers and then suddenly just flew off the beam like if the laser had stopped emitting but the range reading was still there and laser was working after this mishap. I tried firing more missiles and all of them flew all over the place after certain point. My friend hovering besides me was able to engage all his targets just fine.

 

I know from experience that this mid-flight guidance failure happens if you fire the Vikhr without lasing for range first but that wasn't the case. Maybe there's a bug that makes the laser time out as if there wasn't range reading in the first place?

[Bucic]

Don't you guys think the thread should be closed? I used to contribute to it quite a lot back in the day but I started seeing it as counterproductive. Forums are inherently inferior to Q&A sites (e.g. askbot based sites), but such forum threads move forums another level down in terms of usefulness.

 

Such a dump-thread serves three purposes:

1. It offers an easy way out of making an effort and using the forum search function before asking a question.

2. It makes answers to question obscure, buried in tons of posts of various subjects, i.e. makes knowledge harder to find for any future newcommer.

3. It diverts content from the properly titled and located threads to this thread.

 

Call me an eccentric but neither of those is desirable.

[arkroyale048]

I do believe my laser still works at that point since as mentioned, I have the C launch authorisation cue as well as the range to the target.

 

@Tsumikae

 

I have the switch set to Auto. Though I also did fire using Manual mode. Both veered wildly off target.

 

 

Is there any indicator at all that my laser is burned out ? Is it permanent ? Does that necessitate to going back to base and going for repairs ?

[Bucic]

I do believe my laser still works at that point since as mentioned, I have the C launch authorisation cue as well as the range to the target.

 

@Tsumikae

 

I have the switch set to Auto. Though I also did fire using Manual mode. Both veered wildly off target.

 

 

Is there any indicator at all that my laser is burned out ? Is it permanent ? Does that necessitate to going back to base and going for repairs ?

Exactly what I am talking about.

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