The Rookie Thread

[arkroyale048]

@ fishbreath and jumbik

 

Thanks for the encouraging response.

 

@fishbreath

 

Awesome ! This is just what I need to get started. Looking forward to the expansion of your guides.

 

@jumbik

 

Yes; I've already watched this video. It did help somewhat. I no longer bounce everywhere when utilizing the trimmer.

 

My issue now is turning.

 

Say I'm heading in this direction; and I want to turn around. Use my rudder pedals to do so. Once I reach the heading that I want and ease off the pedal. Why is it that the craft wants to go back to my original heading ?

 

I've also mapped auto hover.

 

How exactly does the auto hover work ? I was sort of expecting something magical like; I'm in a forward flight, and all I need to do is activate auto hover; and it will on it's own, stop my forward motion, level out and hover in place. That doesn't seem to happen. Do I have to manually stop forward flight on my own and get as close to hover as I can before using auto hover ?

[Yurgon]

Say I'm heading in this direction; and I want to turn around. Use my rudder pedals to do so. Once I reach the heading that I want and ease off the pedal. Why is it that the craft wants to go back to my original heading ?

 

You should post a track.

 

Turning isn't usually performed by using the rudders. Just like in a fixed wing, helicopter pilots bank the aircraft, apply a bit of back-pressure on the cyclic and maybe step on the ball (use rudder to keep the ball centered in the slip indicator) in order to turn to a different heading.

 

But however you turn, if the chopper fights you, it's probably got to do with trim and/or the autopilot.

 

I've also mapped auto hover.

 

How exactly does the auto hover work ? I was sort of expecting something magical like; I'm in a forward flight, and all I need to do is activate auto hover; and it will on it's own, stop my forward motion, level out and hover in place. That doesn't seem to happen. Do I have to manually stop forward flight on my own and get as close to hover as I can before using auto hover ?

 

The term "Auto Hover" is misleading. Think of it as "Hover Hold". Therefore, as you suggested, getting as close to hover as you can before engaging Auto Hover is exactly the way to go. :thumbup:

 

The Ka-50 should be able to enter a stable Auto Hover if your movement speed is below 5 kph in any direction (as indicated in the HUD).

 

Also, Auto Hover wants to keep the helicopter chained to the position where it was applied. Use the trim button to reset that position to your current position and thus assist the chopper in getting into a really stable auto hover.

 

Look at the HSI, a centered cross will indicate solid auto hover, but if the cross moves out of the center of the HSI, the chopper will try to maneuver to get it centered again.

[Jumbik]

Maybe you have already seen it but I would also suggest to watch this video:

 

He covers the basics how to turn properly and how to avoid vortex rings...

 

Regarding the problem with the turning, the helicopter wants to return to previous heading after turn for two reasons, either your autopilot interferences or the heli still has negative inertia.

 

So turn off the keep current heading autopilot and try it again. If you still experience the same problem, then you will have to compensate for the turn until the inertia will balance out.

 

 

From my experience being gentle with the stick is the key. Jerking it too much will cause the most issues. Also map the remove trim button somewhere so you can stabilize the craft without too much problems.

 

Also do not forget to hide the Gears. I have problems remembering this and it causes issues at higher speeds, you will be fighting the plane a lot more with them out.

[arkroyale048]

@ Yurgon

 

Noted... I shall post a track as soon as I get some free time from work.

 

What I meant was turning in place while on hover. In which I use gentle taps on the rudder.

 

@ Jumbik

 

I'm rewatching it again to see what I have missedl.

I am not sure if my autopilot is interfering. I only have the 3 buttons lighted up on the right panel as per recommended. If I do have the current heading autopilot switched on; where do I deactivate it ?

 

I've been told that it has to do with the real life physics of a coax helicopter and helicopters in general.

 

The craft simply wants to go into the rotation of the rotors (right I believe) so one has to compensate with a little left cyclic.

[Flagrum]

I am not sure if my autopilot is interfering. I only have the 3 buttons lighted up on the right panel as per recommended. If I do have the current heading autopilot switched on; where do I deactivate it ?

The AP turns the helo back to the last heading you had originally set by applying the trimmer. That is what "heading hold" is supposed to do. You don't need (or even better: should not) to deactivate the heading hold channel, but rather just trim the helo again once the desired attitude is established.

[arkroyale048]

So basically... I fly around with the trimmer set.... Hold the trimmer... Make a maneuver... Release trimmer... Rinse and repeat ?

 

I seem to be getting the notion that this is how the Blackshark should be flown ?

 

Forgive the noobish notion, but I am after all starting from scratch :)

[Yurgon]

What I meant was turning in place while on hover. In which I use gentle taps on the rudder.

 

Ah, okay, in that case turning with the rudder is definitely the recommended way to turn. :)

 

You said you didn't want to go into the weapon systems yet, but did you do some targeting practice by chance? There's a feature called "Auto Turn to Target". If that is switched on and your Shkval targeting system is active, the chopper will always try to turn towards the target. That might explain the type of turning you described.

 

As soon as you post a track, we can take a look at it and probably give you more precise pointers on what's happening. :thumbup:

 

I've been told that it has to do with the real life physics of a coax helicopter and helicopters in general.

 

The craft simply wants to go into the rotation of the rotors (right I believe) so one has to compensate with a little left cyclic.

 

That effect comes from the torque that is generated by the transmission acting on the rotor shaft (*).

 

The beauty of Kamov's counter-rotating coaxial design is that the torque forces generated by rotating the two rotor shafts in opposite directions basically cancel each other out. That means that you'll need almost no rudder input when you take off in a Ka-50.

 

The torque effect is much more pronounced in choppers like the UH-1H and the Mi-8MTV2 that both feature the traditional layout of single main rotor + anti-torque tail rotor.

 

(That doesn't mean that there are no torque forces acting on the Ka-50, but going into the intricacies of these effects would go beyond the scope of your question, I believe :))

 

(*) Non-native speaker here. I think the description is correct, but I'll gladly correct it if it's wrong.

[Flagrum]

So basically... I fly around with the trimmer set.... Hold the trimmer... Make a maneuver... Release trimmer... Rinse and repeat ?

 

I seem to be getting the notion that this is how the Blackshark should be flown ?

 

Forgive the noobish notion, but I am after all starting from scratch :)

Not basically ... but absolutely! :o)

But there are two "schools" of Blackshark pilots out there. One like to do exactly what you described, the other likes to trim incrementally. That means, they click trim (press and immediately release the trimmer button) very often during any maneuver. You can see this especially RL Ka-50 pilots doing (search youtube videos).

 

And just to add a bit to what Yurgon replied about the torque effect (posting 1007): that effect is very fundamental principle for conventional helos - that is why these helos have a tail rotor. You control that tail rotor with your "rudder"-pedals to counter the torque effect.

 

BUT the Ka-50 is different here. The rotors cancel each others torque effect out, like Yurgon said. So that is not the effect that makes your helo turn when in hover - the Blackshark is very stable in this regard. I am pretty confident that it has rather to do with the heading hold mode as I said earlier. :o)

 

edit:

I am not saying anything was wrong what Yurgon said, just tried to make sure that the torque effects are not responsible for what you experienced. In fact, when adding power/raising the collective to take off, the torque of the two rotors are not exactly the same and thus the helo does turn a bit that you should counter manually by applying rudder. But that effect is minimal at best and only present when changing the collective setting. If you are in a stable hover, such minimal torque differnces are automatically countered by the stabilization system.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Flagrum

[arkroyale048]

Hello again,

 

I apologize for the tardy reply... Work has been a killer recently and it will remain so for another week.

 

Here's a short track of me putting the Ka-50 in its paces. As you can see I have totally zero confidence on how to get things done with the aircraft. Hopefully that improves soon.

 

 

 

As for my statement where I refuse to learn weaponry and other aspects of the Ka-50. What I meant was that my intention if to fully master the flight characteristics of the Shark first, before I step into the world of weapons employment and other advanced BlackShark operations.

 

My short term goal is to be able to at least 'dance' the Shark around a flagpole with confidence as well as having the Shark do what my mind intends to do and translate it into control inputs to execute as such.

 

Then I can consider learning the other stuff.

 

 

Positive feedback would be very much appreciated, thanks

Ka-50 Testflight.trk

[Bushmanni]

Positive feedback would be very much appreciated, thanks

 

I'm suspecting the track playback was corrupted as you were flying uncoordinated pretty much the whole time even when flying straight, engaged auto-hover when flying about 80km/h and ended up leaning on the right wing after landing at the far end of the runway.

 

In any case controls indicator showed that you weren't using rudder when turning which results in uncoordinated turns. Flying coordinated means that the nose is pointing straight towards the airflow which minimizes drag and also helps to make the chopper behave much more gentler. The proper way to turn a chopper in forward flight is to roll to the direction you are turning and use rudders to keep the nose pointed towards the airflow. Helicopters tend to need much more babysitting in this regard than fixed wings. Ka-50 has wind vanes at the nose that can be used as reference. The vertical vanes should be almost invisible during flight.

 

When rolling fast the nose tends to yaw at the opposite direction in proportion to roll speed (ie. faster the roll, the more nose yaws). If you counter this by pressing the pedal to the same direction you roll, the chopper will stay coordinated even during roll and it's easier and faster to establish a proper coordinated turn.

 

Your control inputs were mostly very smooth which was nice.

[roob]

Here's a short track of me putting the Ka-50 in its paces. As you can see I have totally zero confidence on how to get things done with the aircraft. Hopefully that improves soon.

 

You are not using the trimmer as you are supposed to.

 

My short term goal is to be able to at least 'dance' the Shark around a flagpole with confidence as well as having the Shark do what my mind intends to do and translate it into control inputs to execute as such.

 

Positive feedback would be very much appreciated, thanks

 

Challenge accepted! :pilotfly:

 

Posted a track. At the end I'm showing you the basics of the trimmer in action.

I don't know about this analogy, but... just for the lulz.

 

Definition controls: Stick, Rudder

 

Imagine whenever you press the trim button, you take a photo of your controls. The controls in that photo are so awesome to the autopilot, it cannot stop looking at that one photo. It wants to be that photo, so it becomes that photo. You tell it to stop but it just sits there ignoring. That is because the autopilot talks to no one but the helicopter.

The helicopter is the autopilot's master.

 

You, on the other hand, are the helicopter's master.

 

When you move the controls, the helicopter move the controls, but the autopilot does not.It is still daydreaming about that photo.

So you slap (trim) the helicopter, tells it to show this new awesome photo to the autopilot. The helicopter obeys, and passes the photo along to the autopilot which yet again becomes completely awestruck.

 

 

Explanation taken from the Ka-420 manual.

I did not cover the altitude "trim" button (can't remember what it's called).

Poledance.trk

[Yurgon]

Here's a short track of me putting the Ka-50 in its paces. As you can see I have totally zero confidence on how to get things done with the aircraft. Hopefully that improves soon.

 

That doesn't look so bad. Actually, your control looks pretty good and solid for a new pilot. :thumbup:

 

There are lots of small things I would point out. Bushmanni and roob already commented on coordinated turns and use of the trimmer. But actually, I think you're on a good path here and really just need to take your time, experiment, and get comfortable with the Ka-50. I know my first flights looked much, much worse. :)

 

As for my statement where I refuse to learn weaponry and other aspects of the Ka-50. What I meant was that my intention if to fully master the flight characteristics of the Shark first, before I step into the world of weapons employment and other advanced BlackShark operations.

 

If you refer to my question, I think I understood your intention quite well. I was only trying to find out if you had already progressed to the targeting system, which could have offered an explanation for some of the problems you described.

 

But if I understand correctly, you didn't use the targeting system, so my question led to confusion instead of clarification. Sorry about that. :music_whistling:

 

My short term goal is to be able to at least 'dance' the Shark around a flagpole with confidence as well as having the Shark do what my mind intends to do and translate it into control inputs to execute as such.

 

That sounds like a very good and solid plan. :thumbup:

 

I'm suspecting the track playback was corrupted as you were flying uncoordinated pretty much the whole time even when flying straight, engaged auto-hover when flying about 80km/h and ended up leaning on the right wing after landing at the far end of the runway.

 

That sounds like the description of the playback I saw, so I guess the track plays back okay for us.

 

I don't remember Auto Hover being engaged, but that could just be because I didn't see it in the playback.

 

Definition controls: Stick, Rudder

 

Imagine whenever you press the trim button, you take a photo of your controls. [...]

 

Wow, awesome description. :)

[arkroyale048]

Pardon again for the tardy reply.

 

As far as I know; there is nothing wrong with the track. What you see there is what happened. Including the crash when I attempted to land.

 

Yes I did engage that auto hover thinking I'm already slow enough to do so.

[tsumikae]

Auto-hover should be engaged when you're almost in an acceptable hover, actually. For it to work properly, your speed prior to engaging it should not exceed 5.

 

Maybe you knew that already, but just in case: your hud helps you getting more stable. When your speed drops below 50, a vector appears on your hud, indicating your helo overall heading and speed. Your goal is to nullify that vector with control inputs that are basically in the opposite direction.

[arkroyale048]

Here's lil ole me trying the shark again. I think I performed better this time. Though I was messing around with the Shkval and I lost the speed indicator on the HUD. Went through the whole flight without it. Landing went somewhat better. Though I think I broke something on the way down. Landed it somewhat like a fixed wing aircraft. I still can't do that hover and descent thing.

KA-50.rar

[Bushmanni]

Your flying looked pretty much the same as last time except it was even more random looking this time and you pitched nose up soon after taking off and crashed the chopper tail first to ground and exploded in a glorious fireball. I'm pretty sure both of your tracks were more or less broken. Have you checked them yourself before uploading that they actually show what really happened and you have the latest version of DCS World?

 

Best way to learn hovering is practicing hover landings. Take off from FARP, fly a little circle so as to pick up some speed (about 100km/h should be enough) and then land. Try to land exactly at the center of the FARP pad (rotor hub is smack in the middle when viewed from above). Repeat this for 10-20 times and then do it again next day. Keep doing this routine about twice a week until it feels too easy. Then do it again after a week or two.

 

Descent is easy as long as you don't do it while hovering. You should keep at least about 70-100km/h forward speed while descending fast to avoid VRS. Don't try to land like the AI does by stopping above the pad at 15m and then slowly hovering down to the pad. You can't see down at all and you could very easily drift over other pad and hit other choppers when coming down. Even if you are careful it takes lots of time and extra effort to land this way. Better way is to come down in 10-30 degree slope 30-10km/h so that you fly towards the landing spot and see where you are going. Gradually slow down the forward and descent speed while coming closer to ground.

 

The following link shows the idea of an easy landing style.

[arkroyale048]

Something must have gone wrong with the track upon uploading and downloading. I don't recall crashing tail first and exploding in a giant fireball. I did view the track and everything was normal.

[tsumikae]

It's so wrong that I can't even read it: the game crashes upon opening the track. Maybe it's an issue on my side. Do you use mods?

[arkroyale048]

Nope... not using any mods.

[Rogue Trooper]

Tracks are playing up lately, I watched a track last week from a mission:

 

I took out all long range threats and then moved in to take out the AA gun vehicles from 2.5KM using the Kamov's cannon.

 

However when I watched the track I took out every long range threat except a group of 4 anti-tank missile armed APCs which hit me whilst I was in a nice steady hover for cannon firing.......

this was not how the mission went.

 

No mods, no reticle mods.

[arkroyale048]

Made a few more freeflights tonight...

 

Happy to report that I'm now able to enter hover state... albeit with a drift in a random direction.

 

Tried activating the auto hover mode as soon as I got my airspeed lowered to at least 10. Found that it wants to nose down for some reason.

[Bushmanni]

Glad to know you are making progress.

 

It's not enough to get the choppers speed under 10km/h but you need to also trim it for that state or the autopilots authority won't be enough to keep the chopper in hover. If the chopper is trimmed for forward flight it will try to push nose down in hover. You also must have FD disengaged for the autohover to work.

 

The trick about hovering is to know the neutral attitude where the chopper won't accelerate in any direction and understand that tilting the chopper causes acceleration in the direction of the tilt. If you engage autohover successfully it will bring the chopper to the current neutral state.

 

Ka-50 is in neutral state at hover with nose up about 5(+-2) degrees and pylons level. The actual required pitch and roll for neutral state depend on your loadout as fuel and weapons will change the CG. If there's wind you naturally need to lean to the wind a bit. When the chopper is in neutral state it will stay put or keep going to the direction it was going. For example if you need to slide right you don't keep the chopper tilted right all the time but you tilt right for maybe one second and then level it and the chopper will keep going slowly and steadily to the right until you make similar tilt to the left that will "neutralize" the velocity component to the right and stop the chopper. These kind of small and short tilts will be enough for precise maneuvering but if you need to move faster than about 15km/h you will start to keep the chopper tilted to overcome drag.

 

You can make hovering flight very easy for yourself by trimming the chopper for hover and disengaging FD. Now the chopper will automatically always return to the neural state when you let go of the stick so now the cyclic controls your lateral acceleration instead of pitch and roll.

[arkroyale048]

Back again.... Finally managed to free myself from the clutches of work. Now I have more time for learning and flying the Shark.

 

I've made a bigger leap this time.

 

-> I can now utilize the Vikhr missiles

-> Use the associated (autopilot ?) assists to help me turn into targets

-> As mentioned before, you can literally let the aircraft fly itself and you concentrate on flying the mission. Have already done so.

-> Just mastered the startup procedures.

-> Can now utilize the cannon and it's associated functions.

 

 

I still need work on:

 

Flying the aircraft (when not flying the mission)

Making it go where I really want it to go.

The aircraft somewhat flies recalcitrant against me for some unknown reason.

 

My landings are still horrible.

[tsumikae]

I tried and didn't like the trim constantly method so for other people who are having trouble with it, try this:

 

After takeoff trim for a hover with roll and pitch AP on

Never trim again

Only use heading and altitude AP when you want to hold a steady heading and altitude in a HOVER

Never trim the rudder, leave it centered

 

This allows to to quickly get into a hover by simply letting go of the stick, although it'll be violent if you do so so just let go gradually while compensating with the collective for lift as you slow.

Don't be afraid of not flying perfectly straight and level. As long as you're going to the right spot nobody cares if you're in a 3° roll or if your nose isn't pointing exactly to the direction you're moving. Besides, you'll have more style :P

 

I'd be surprised if those 3° roll and less than good heading are not what will make you love your trim button and get used to trimming in the KA, after a while :D

 

Have you tried the flight director? It seems to me that it would fit your flying style nicely. But maybe I'm wrong.

[tsumikae]

I think you're not lazy enough for your own good.

 

Here's how I use the trim: with at least three AP channels on, I hold the trimmer, point my machine in the good direction, at a convenient speed, release the trimmer and yell "to infinity, and beyond" (not mandatory). And the nice AP takes me there, smooth as silk. That's how lazy I am.

 

You can be even lazier, thanks to the AP. If your PVI800 has a WP route programmed, just check that at three (mandatory) AP channels are on, engage en-route mode, and go to sleep. No trim involved.