no bug DCS Fw-190A-8: Braking Force Too High

[Bowie]

... like the DCS P-51D.

 

FMOptions.lua

Edited the C:/Program Files/Eagle Dynamics/DCS World OpenBeta/Mods/aircraft/FW-190A8/FM/FMOptions.lua file.

15 mainWheelBrakeMomentMax = 3000.0 -- Wheel Brakes - Max 3000.0, OEM 8000.0

 

The DCS Bf-109K-4 has this correct, but both the DCS Fw-190A-8 and DCS P51-D need correcting.

Please advise.

 

Bowie

[peachmonkey]

1 hour ago, Bowie said:

... like the DCS P-51D.

 

FMOptions.lua

Edited the C:/Program Files/Eagle Dynamics/DCS World OpenBeta/Mods/aircraft/FW-190A8/FM/FMOptions.lua file.

15 mainWheelBrakeMomentMax = 3000.0 -- Wheel Brakes - Max 3000.0, OEM 8000.0

 

The DCS Bf-109K-4 has this correct, but both the DCS Fw-190A-8 and DCS P51-D need correcting.

Please advise.

 

Bowie

it's not ideal, but I put curves on the braking axis.

[Bowie]

7 hours ago, peachmonkey said:

it's not ideal, but I put curves on the braking axis.

 

No curves for the keyboard button.

3000 - gives full useful breaking when hard down, and less for shorter durations.

Clean and snappy taxiing.

Stick back/steer -> stick forward/differential brake/initiate rotation -> turn -> stick neutral/opposite differential brake/arrest rotation/roll-out/tail-wheel lock -> stick back/steer...

Just no risk of sticking the prop, unless nearly empty.

But then, IRL, lots of physiological indicators to over braking a tail-dragger, that don't exist in the DCS World.

So, settle for the equivalent - competent pilot skill.

 

Bowie

[Hammer1-1]

think its fairly correct as is all things considered. Those brakes do lock up, there  arent anti-lock brakes installed on P-51's. I dont even think there are any flying examples that even have it installed. The only real way to dampen them out would be to put curves into your axes.

[Bowie]

3 hours ago, Hammer1-1 said:

think its fairly correct as is all things considered. Those brakes do lock up, there  arent anti-lock brakes installed on P-51's. I dont even think there are any flying examples that even have it installed. The only real way to dampen them out would be to put curves into your axes.

As stated, there is no physiological feedback to the pilot in DCS, so it's brake application by mail.

An IRL pilot feels the deceleration and the foot pressure, both absent in DCS World.

An IRL pilot would apply brakes up to the maximum Usable force.

The repeater brake key does not, it goes from 0 to 100% mechanical braking force in way less than a second, like some idiot stomping on the brake pedal.

On the other hand, reducing the Max mechanical braking force, to the Max Usable force, resolves the issue, as the repeater brake key will not exceed that threshold.

So, a little brake, or a lot of brake, up to the maximum Usable force.

 

Bowie

 

[bephanten]

yes, people braking with keyboard need quality of life improvements.

[Hammer1-1]

6 hours ago, bephanten said:

yes, people braking with keyboard need quality of life improvements.

^ this.

If you are using the keyboard to brake, then you need to find another way to afford a cheap set of rudder pedals instead. Again, it defaults back to the anti-lock brake system which is designed specifically NOT to do that. If you want to control your brakes like in a vehicle, then you need to assign an axis for them instead of a key. Sorry, thats the only other way to do it...

another suggestion that could even remotely help you with using a keyboard is if ED could make them pressure sensitive...but then you would need a pressure sensitive keyboard. I dont think there are any keyboards like that, but maybe a playstation or xbox controller?

@NineLine is that feasible?

Edited September 7, 2024 by Hammer1-1

[SharpeXB]

A button press brake command should sorta ramp up the longer you hold it down. Not just go from zero-100% instantly. 

[Hammer1-1]

a key press is a key press, not an axis. Theres really no way to make that possible unless you can figure out how to half press a key.

[Art-J]

You guys are overthinking it. As mentioned in the other thread ramping up by a longer press has already been a feature in stock, unmodded DCS for years. By short-tapping it's easy to roughly  modulate braking force to 1/4, 1/2. etc. True, it's never going to be as good as fully analog input but it's sufficient to operate DCS warbirds safely, as I used to do for years before buying proper rudder pedals.

[MAXsenna]

a key press is a key press, not an axis. Theres really no way to make that possible unless you can figure out how to half press a key.

No, it has been done. It's actually only math. The longer you hold the key, the higher the brake pressure rises. It's like complaints the Jeff had, when flown with a keyboard. Deka fixed it by request. Don't have a link.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Bowie]

12 hours ago, Hammer1-1 said:

a key press is a key press, not an axis. Theres really no way to make that possible unless you can figure out how to half press a key.

You limit the max braking force to max usable braking force - in this case, 3000.

That way, the pilot, with a key, applies braking force up to that point, just like IRL.

 

Bowie

[Hammer1-1]

well then you run the risk of not being able to fully depress the brakes, right? I havent had the need to use a keyboard to fly since Flanker 2.51...

2 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

No, it has been done. It's actually only math. The longer you hold the key, the higher the brake pressure rises. It's like complaints the Jeff had, when flown with a keyboard. Deka fixed it by request. Don't have a link.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

If you're correct, then Im not one to argue. Im not a software designer, so if it can be done then it can be done. But the JF has antilock brakes....

Edited September 8, 2024 by Hammer1-1

[MAXsenna]

well then you run the risk of not being able to fully depress the brakes, right? I havent had the need to use a keyboard to fly since Flanker 2.51...
If you're correct, then Im not one to argue. Im not a software designer, so if it can be done then it can be done. But the JF has antilock brakes....

Yup, arguing is boring. I didn't explain my self correctly. In the Jeff someone complained about how the arrow keys (stick) worked, and they changed it so it would work like other DCS modules. Something about the control surfaces returning to neutral when you let go of the keys or something. Don't remember the brakes.
In modules without anti-locking brakes. You just program it so you must hold the key on the keyboard for like a second to reach max braking power. You can even see how it's done in some modules in the Controls Indicator. The brake pressure rise as you press the key, while not instant.
Cheers!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Bowie]

28 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

well then you run the risk of not being able to fully depress the brakes, right? I havent had the need to use a keyboard to fly since Flanker 2.51...

You appear to be hyper-focused on yourself, and inclined to spent other peoples money.

Max Mechanical Braking Force is a useless value w/o Physiological Pilot Feedback.

Fly a taildragger IRL, use Max Mechanical Braking Force and find out, once.

Useful Braking Force is what you will use, and in DCS WWII fighters, that is ~ 3000.

It allows taxiing and braking, and engine run-up, with differential keys, as IRL.

 

Bowie

Edited September 8, 2024 by Bowie

[Hammer1-1]

41 minutes ago, Bowie said:

You appear to be hyper-focused on yourself, and inclined to spent other peoples money.

Max Mechanical Braking Force is a useless value w/o Physiological Pilot Feedback.

Fly a taildragger IRL, use Max Mechanical Braking Force and find out, once.

Useful Braking Force is what you will use, and in DCS WWII fighters, that is ~ 3000.

It allows taxiing and braking, and engine run-up, with differential keys, as IRL.

 

Bowie

 

and you dont seem inclined to understand that theres really no way to model a non antilock brake system to a simple key bind unless (or even if) you have a pressure sensitive keyboard. Try a jet and see if your brakes lock up in the Su25T. Just entertain it. If it does the exact same thing, Ill cede your point. Try it with a playstation controller too.

Edited September 8, 2024 by Hammer1-1

[Hammer1-1]

41 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Yup, arguing is boring. I didn't explain my self correctly. In the Jeff someone complained about how the arrow keys (stick) worked, and they changed it so it would work like other DCS modules. Something about the control surfaces returning to neutral when you let go of the keys or something. Don't remember the brakes.
In modules without anti-locking brakes. You just program it so you must hold the key on the keyboard for like a second to reach max braking power. You can even see how it's done in some modules in the Controls Indicator. The brake pressure rise as you press the key, while not instant.
Cheers!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

The controls surfaces would tend to move a certain amount of degrees for every key press and wouldnt have any return. Holding the key down would keep deflecting the surface like any sticky key would, and the only way to move it the other direction was to move the opposite key. They changed it to where the deflection only happens when the key is tapped and it cancels out when released (or does the exact opposite after releasing the key so to speak...tap 1 forward, release 1 aft). Considering that the jets are hydraulically actuated while the props are mechanically activated, they behave in different ways as they should. Anti lock brakes are designed to match rotation speed of each rim and if one is out of sync, then the computer applies braking force to that one rim or releases pressure on the others. All that you have to do is press the pedals. You dont get that in a regular brake system, its the amount of force you put into the brakes. If it skids, thats on you. The only option I see is it has to be either pressure sensitive one way or the other. Again if I am wrong, then Im wrong...I just dont see how you can use a key press to get full braking force, especially since you have two wheels you have to manage at the same time. To keep from sliding all over the place, you would need a key for both the left and right wheel piston. Id like to know the answer to this as well...

Edited September 8, 2024 by Hammer1-1

[MAXsenna]

The controls surfaces would tend to move a certain amount of degrees for every key press and wouldnt have any return. Holding the key down would keep deflecting the surface like any sticky key would, and the only way to move it the other direction was to move the opposite key. They changed it to where the deflection only happens when the key is tapped and it cancels out when released (or does the exact opposite after releasing the key so to speak...tap 1 forward, release 1 aft). Considering that the jets are hydraulically actuated while the props are mechanically activated, they behave in different ways as they should. Anti lock brakes are designed to match rotation speed of each rim and if one is out of sync, then the computer applies braking force to that one rim or releases pressure on the others. All that you have to do is press the pedals. You dont get that in a regular brake system, its the amount of force you put into the brakes. If it skids, thats on you. The only option I see is it has to be either pressure sensitive one way or the other. Again if I am wrong, then Im wrong...I just dont see how you can use a key press to get full braking force, especially since you have two wheels you have to manage at the same time. To keep from sliding all over the place, you would need a key for both the left and right wheel piston. Id like to know the answer to this as well...

Right! That's what I meant. And yes, you need a key/button for each wheel of course. I might have a look after at least one module I've seen it being done. No need for a pressure sensitive keyboard, if you just code it with time pressed instead of pressure/force. Actually, it's strange no one has made one yet. Should be easy!
That said, I am with you, that pedals are the way to go, if one have legs available. But I do think better key/button braking system should be available for users with disabilities. Could even be part of the special settings.
Product idea? Pressure sensitive pads one can have under one's elbows?

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Bowie]

30 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

and you dont seem inclined to understand that theres really no way to model a non antilock brake system to a simple key bind unless (or even if) you have a pressure sensitive keyboard. Try a jet and see if your brakes lock up in the Su25T. Just entertain it. If it does the exact same thing, Ill cede your point. Try it with a playstation controller too.

 

Useful Braking Force - is modeling Competent Pilot application of the braking system.

That's it.

In DCS WWII fighters, that's ~ 3000.

An Idiot stomps on the brakes in a taildragger, a Pilot applies Useful braking force.

 

Bowie

 

[Hammer1-1]

10 minutes ago, Bowie said:

Useful Braking Force - is modeling Competent Pilot application of the braking system.

That's it.

In DCS WWII fighters, that's ~ 3000.

An Idiot stomps on the brakes in a taildragger, a Pilot applies Useful braking force.

 

Bowie

 

dude....

would you like a set of rudder pedals?

[Bowie]

12 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

dude....

would you like a set of rudder pedals?

W/o Physiological Pilot feedback, "rudder peddles" are just another fake solution to the Max Mechanical Braking Force issue.

On the other hand, Useful Breaking Force, which is ~ 3000 in DCS WWII fighters, allows me to simulate Competent Pilot Brake Application in a taildragger, as IRL.

Run-up/Taxiing/Braking. even with the differential repeater keys.

So, no.

Thanks.

 

Bowie

[Hammer1-1]

39 minutes ago, Bowie said:

W/o Physiological Pilot feedback, "rudder peddles" are just another fake solution to the Max Mechanical Braking Force issue.

On the other hand, Useful Breaking Force, which is ~ 3000 in DCS WWII fighters, allows me to simulate Competent Pilot Brake Application in a taildragger, as IRL.

Run-up/Taxiing/Braking. even with the differential repeater keys.

So, no.

Thanks.

 

Bowie

If you say it will work, have at it. Ill just picture you using your big toe to brake with the keyboard. Effectively and realistically I might add.

[Bowie]

3 hours ago, Hammer1-1 said:

If you say it will work, have at it. Ill just picture you using your big toe to brake with the keyboard. Effectively and realistically I might add.

Am using it now, on all the WWII Fighters.

For the P-51D-25-NA, 3000:

Stick back/steer -> stick forward/differential brake/initiate rotation -> turn -> stick neutral/opposite differential brake/arrest rotation/roll-out/tail-wheel lock -> stick back/steer...

Simulating IRL.

 

Bowie

[Nealius]

Breaking force seems too low for me. I can't maintain a decent taxi speed while staying at sufficient RPM to not rattle the airframe to death.

[NineLine]

I just checked, using the keyboard I am not seeing the break instant on, whenever I use the keyboard it is short taps for me. This is meant to be a simulator so its to be expected that using the keyboard for any sort of controls like this is not ideal.