Better modeling of pilot's head movement

[Supernova-III]

Before I start:

• sorry for my english, it's not even my second language, the idea is complex to explain it in a simple way with my skills
• for people who get the idea, if you have something to add/clarify/correct, please don't hesitate to do this

We have an amazing feature "Head movement by G-forces", I really can't fly without it! However, I think we could get even further with head movement modeling. In reality the head can be also roll-stabilized on purpose. During the roll maneuver, pilot usually tries to keep the head orientation stable relative to the horizon line, or to some reference line on the ground/airspace, gaining smoother feeling of roll. It's the case for roll angles somewhere between 0-60 deg and of course limited by individual capabilities of the pilot. Maybe it's not really clear, but let me draw it

There are two lines of pictures. Currently DCS implements something close to the first line, i.e. pilot's head orientation is generally static relative to the aircraft  during the roll. I propose to add what I've demonstrated on the second line -- pilot tries to keep the head orientation static relative to the horizon line or any other line, when performing the roll. It will create such feeling that aircraft kinda rotates around you at some part of the roll.

I see many cockpit footage that seem to tell that the second line (roll angle -> some value, head -> close to 0) is the case in reality. Let me provide some example: https://youtu.be/3M4WBhqhcyE?t=115 with time code. As per description, "A front seat view of BFM filmed using Oho Sunshine video glasses.", which means that we see the picture on the eyes-level + there's no self-stabilized camera (maybe...). Just look at these small roll movements, it really looks like the aircraft rotates around the pilot, pilot's head is not "attached" to the aircraft, in contrast to DCS. Another good example is how pilot's head behaves in MSFS, say, if you fly super hornet -- same thing.

Rationale:

• it will give more stable view during the roll. Of course, you can still stabilize your head yourself, especially in VR, but it's also not impossible with trackIR, but it's very hard. In real airplane you have some force to counter-act to, doing the opposite roll with your head and thus you easily understand the right amount of counter-roll
• giving more stabilized view it may help some people to tolerate rolls better
• it feels good. It's already implemented in other sims like MSFS (try super hornet to get my point), and even WarThunder
• it looks like on real footages
• it's the case in reality -- combat pilots really rotate the head in the opposite direction to the roll

Why avoid implementing this:

• because you can perform such counter-roll yourself, even with trackIR. But as I said, it's hard to get the right amount of counter rotation
• msfs is an arcade game
• war thunder is not sim
• we don't understand your idea, it looks weird

UPD:

this explanation might be wrong/inexact/whatever. I just wanted to explain the effect I see in cockpit footage videos and some other simulator games. I don't pretend to be an expert in what I'm saying here.

 

UPD1:

pilot head inertia may also be the case. It's not entirely implemented in DCS, especially at fast rolls

Edited September 23, 2024 by Supernova-III

[razo+r]

Pilots are taught to not rotate their head around during maneuvers, so the head should stay exactly as it is and not stabilize in Relation to the outside horizon. Of course people do this from time to time and especially when they are activly looking outside the aircraft but most of the time, at least during normal, non-intensive maneuvers, they will not stabilise their head in regards to the horizon. 

Tilting the head during maneuvers in real can cause things that are not possible to experience in a simulator. 

Overall you will find plenty of videos online where pilots will tilt and rotate their heads when they look outside, but will remain mostly straight when they do normal maneuvers. Both versions are around and there is no definitive answer to which behaviour is correct.

[Mike_Romeo]

2 hours ago, Supernova-III said:

pilot usually tries to keep the head orientation stable relative to the horizon line, or to some reference line on the ground/airspace, gaining smoother feeling of roll.

Totally untrue. I do fly in real life and my flight teacher thought me to keep my head relative to the plane and not to the horizon. This is so that you have a better orientation of the planes axis in 3d space.

Edited September 21, 2024 by Mike_Romeo

[Nptune]

With the natural head movement option they need to fix the up and down movements, every thing else is fine and smooth, but the pitching up and down / forward back in a helicopter is so unrealistic and fast moving it makes it un usable. Only up and down needs to be fixed the rest is fine.

[Supernova-III]

12 hours ago, Mike_Romeo said:

Totally untrue. I do fly in real life and my flight teacher thought me to keep my head relative to the plane and not to the horizon. This is so that you have a better orientation of the planes axis in 3d space.

 

I was just tried to explain what I see in multiple cockpit footage videos and other simulators. It's fine if it's not an explanation. If you get the idea what I'm talking about but my explanation is not exact/wrong, please provide the correct one.

12 hours ago, razo+r said:

Pilots are taught to not rotate their head around during maneuvers, so the head should stay exactly as it is and not stabilize in Relation to the outside horizon. Of course people do this from time to time and especially when they are activly looking outside the aircraft but most of the time, at least during normal, non-intensive maneuvers, they will not stabilise their head in regards to the horizon. 

Tilting the head during maneuvers in real can cause things that are not possible to experience in a simulator. 

Overall you will find plenty of videos online where pilots will tilt and rotate their heads when they look outside, but will remain mostly straight when they do normal maneuvers. Both versions are around and there is no definitive answer to which behaviour is correct.

makes sense, but I still see the videos I see and know the opinion from the real pilot. I may explain this wrong, but it anyway exists in some form. So we could have this as an option in DCS. We already have movement under G-force as an option, so why not having another one...

[buceador]

12 hours ago, Mike_Romeo said:

Totally untrue. I do fly in real life and my flight teacher thought me to keep my head relative to the plane and not to the horizon. This is so that you have a better orientation of the planes axis in 3d space.

This!  My flying experience is limited to light aircraft / civilian aircraft.  I too was taught to  keep my head relative to the plane and not to the horizon and as barrel rolls and aileron rolls are not common practise in light aircraft this makes sense.  Given that fighter pilots need extreme SA I imagine head position is closely related to the aircraft dynamic.

[Supernova-III]

Anyway, pilot's head has inertia. It means that the aircraft rotates first, the head comes next after some delay. It's not entirely implemented in DCS

[draconus]

4 hours ago, Supernova-III said:

Anyway, pilot's head has inertia. It means that the aircraft rotates first, the head comes next after some delay.

That would work for passengers but since you're the pilot making the roll you anticipate the move and keep the head stiff. Same as riding on the bike your first move before the turn is to move the body into the turn and only then move the steering wheel. Same as F1 driver moves and keep the head into the turn not let it wiggle with side forces.

[Wrcknbckr]

Pilot head would move for unanticipated rotation, for instance due to turbulence. That aircraft movement was not anticipated and neck muscles are not strained for upright position 100% of the time, maybe that was what OP meant...

 

(Off topic; turning a bike is initiated by pushing the handle bar in the opposite direction - causing you body to fall inward the intended curve, try it, be careful  ;))

Edited September 23, 2024 by Wrcknbckr

[Mike_Romeo]

Here a 360° Eurofighter cockpit video where we can see how the pilots head moves during turns

 

[Supernova-III]

6 hours ago, Mike_Romeo said:

we can see how the pilots head moves during turns

could you please give me the time code? At least most of the footage captured from the camera that is likely mounted in front of the HUD glass

Edited September 29, 2024 by Supernova-III

[Mike_Romeo]

2 hours ago, Supernova-III said:

could you please give me the time code?

 

Time code of what ? How he moves his head ? Well he doesnt which is the point. Im not trying to proof he is moving his head.

[sirrah]

3 minutes ago, Mike_Romeo said:

Time code of what ? How he moves his head ? Well he doesnt which is the point. Im not trying to proof he is moving his head.

I think he didn't notice that it's a 360 video.

 

@Supernova-III; you can manually turn/rotate the camera view in that video (yeah, I know, the future is here )

[Supernova-III]

43 minutes ago, sirrah said:

you can manually turn/rotate the camera view in that video

[Supernova-III]

I stuck watching 360deg cockpit videos... @sirrah just unlocked it for me. So yeah, for people who say that pilot don't adapt their view during roll maneuvers, you have to watch these videos.

 

[draconus]

7 hours ago, Supernova-III said:

So yeah, for people who say that pilot don't adapt their view during roll maneuvers, you have to watch these videos.

Time code?

[razo+r]

7 hours ago, Supernova-III said:

I stuck watching 360deg cockpit videos... @sirrah just unlocked it for me. So yeah, for people who say that pilot don't adapt their view during roll maneuvers, you have to watch these videos.

 

There is no clear answer to this. Sometimes they do it, sometimes they don't. But they don't do it all the time, and they don't do it never. The general consensus is still that you shouldn't do it, but that of course doesn't prohibit people from doing it from time to time.