DCS: F-5E Remastered - First impressions

[Tom P]

This is pointless to argue about. 

[theRealTrickFlare]

 Vote with your wallets. I'm enjoying the new cockpit in VR, I bought the original F5 in 2021 on 50% off for USD $29.99 I paid $9.99 for the upgrade. to buy this module new (even before the update as of 2021) was 59.99. 

For me that's a win as I still have not paid full price for the F5 having only forked out ~$39.99 USD total.

I hope some bugs are addressed and maybe some unplanned improvements, to encourage that I am reporting bugs to help the devs find the issues and correct them. 

**I also noticed if I listen to the plane under G I can hear it overstress and crack, a good clue the wings are about to go their own ways. Very cool.

[goofball]

As a customer I would also try to get my return on investment.
Seeking feedback from others, understanding current state and future potential of the product, what is the vision of the company for this and other modules and their plan for an healthy environment. And yes I would do this even if "it is only 9.99".

My opinion is that I would have been willing to pay more —it is not a cheap hobby after all—  if it meant a stronger commitment to elevate this module to be on par with the others.

Offering a cosmetic upgrade for a bargain price gives me the impression that all the community's wishes and hopes will be frozen for another decade if not for good. All the feedback in these days sounds like the community loves the F-5 more than ED do, a missed opportunity.

Perhaps with a higher quality product, enthusiasm could have been greater, trust could have been renewed, and sales might even have been stronger
—but that's speculation on my part.

Removing the product from the trial program is concerning, preventing potential customers from "see for themselves" and leaving the marketing keys in the hands of the community which, understandably, has mixed feelings right now.

I hope that continuing this conversation politely and constructively can spark some interest and lead to a reevaluation of this project.

Edited December 10 by goofball

[Rudel_chw]

5 hours ago, Tom P said:

I would be upset if I paid for a module and the company later on tried to get more money for a module I already own. My passion isn't my wallet.

I purchased my F-5 on the christmas sale of 2016, for us$ 42. How long do you think that amount can support this Module’s fixes and maintenance? 8 years is not enough? I don’t need passion in order to be fair.

[nessuno0505]

From the first F-5 newsletter about the f-5e remastered:

Key Features of the Remastered DCS: F-5E:

• Remastered external model based on the latest graphics technologies to create a highly accurate and realistic model. New external animations have also been added.
• Remastered cockpit with greatly improved resolution, glass surfaces, and attention to detail.
• Addition of a 1st person view pilot in the cockpit view.
• New afterburner effects. (coming soon)
• New vortices effect based on the aircraft’s angle of attack. (coming soon)
• Numerous bug fixes and tunings such as damage modelling, sensors, and avionics.

To be honest: I think 9,99 after 8+ years is a fair price even just for a graphical and 3d model overhaul, and I've already bought the upgrade; nevertheless, the first newsletter was a bit misleading as for the last point: "tunings in the avionics": it's not just the bug fixing (which, moreover, one deserves even without upgrading to the remastered); the newsletter alludes to something more: that's why people expected at least a remake of the radar textures or some adjustment of the radar values to make it more realistic: it was written in the newsletter! 

As a proof of a certain intellectual dishonesty, in the final description of the remastered in the store page, the last line is removed:

DCS: F-5E Remaster

If you already own the DCS: F-5E, the remaster allows you to update the external model and cockpit.

• Recently remastered external model is based on the latest graphics technologies to create a highly accurate and realistic model. New external animations have also been added.
• Recently remastered cockpit with greatly improved resolution, glass surfaces, and attention to detail.

Please note that installing the remaster updates your existing DCS: F-5E and does not create a new aircraft entry in DCS. All F-5E mission content is carried over to the remaster update.

 

I hope that at least the afterburner and vortices effects are kept and do not end up like the promises on the avionics.

I repeat: I'm glad I've bought the upgrade and the price is fair, but as we say in Italy "cca nisciuno è fesso" (search it on google if you like).

Edited December 10 by nessuno0505

[theRealTrickFlare]

My guy, a consumer purchase is not an investment. There is no return, you spend the money, it's gone and ED only owes you the key to unlock the 1s and 0s you just purchased.
I understand your thought, I consider my hardware an investment because I can upgrade at my leisure and re-sell if I need to, you can't do that with DCS modules.

I hope everyone can agree on the fact that the hostility towards ED staffers and the abundant back and forth happening on every video. It is starting to make this community look toxic which is going to further drive away people discovering the things that we all clearly do enjoy that keeps us launching and flying in DCS. 

 

Edited December 10 by theRealTrickFlare

[goofball]

"Getting the most out of my purchases" is a better way to put it.

I'm not here to defend toxicity nor suggest that a product should come with lifetime free support and upgrades.
At the same time I will not criticize fellow customers providing productive feedback on how awesome this module could be.
If i only vote with my wallet and leave the explanations to toxic voices, I can't hope for any meaningful change.

[LancerVI]

Not even for $10. Nope. 

 

ED needs competition badly and it shows. 

[Art-J]

16 hours ago, Cab said:

So, the company should either, 1. Not offer any upgrades to an existing module for any price, or 2. Provide all upgrades free of charge?

Speaking strictly about this aspect, I'd say there's option 3 -company should set the price of product according to its actual value.

If 2nd "incarnation" of A-10C and 3rd of Ka-50 didn't exist, I guess the whole drama about F-5E remaster cost would not exist either (maybe with exception of these couple of, shall we say, "special" people, who indeed expect eternal software upgrades for free). These two remasters were released however, and we can see that for that 10$ each, they simply brought many times more features than F-5 one.

Compared to them, this remaster, with the same 3D mesh of cockpit and only external model redone ("7000" hours? Yeah.... rrrrright), just offers poor value for the same upgrade price. There's no denying that. I know inflation is a thing, but it hasn't increased THAT much in recent years.

On the other hand though, one cannot ignore that when A-10CII and Ka-50 v3 came out, they got their base prices jacked up quite a bit compared to their legacy versions. Remastered F-5E still stays a 60$. So some of existing owners of all these modules might feel taken advantage of, but for new DCS customers, it all kind of balances out.

[Schmidtfire]

12 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

I purchased my F-5 on the christmas sale of 2016, for us$ 42. How long do you think that amount can support this Module’s fixes and maintenance? 8 years is not enough? I don’t need passion in order to be fair.

I purchased F-5E on release day. Good old times 

Everyday since 2016, new copies has been sold of the F-5E. Maybe I'm naive, but a portion of those sales should have gone into more fixes and maintenance over the years. After all, it's not reasonable to keep selling 8 year old products at top prices. From my perspective. The F-5E got left hanging in the wind when Belsimtek merged into ED and started focus on new product.

Even if many players expected a free update, I don't think $10 or even $20 pricing would have been an issue if ED truly had delivered a full Remaster. Many players feel the F-5E always needed more fixes and a finishing touch, and to them this DLC does not live up to it's name or the "7000hrs+ invested" hype. Bottom line is that the product needs to deliver and meet expectations and it seems like the F-5E Remastered fell short.

Anyways, it is what it is. If players find value in the F-5E Remastered version they will buy, otherwise they won't. Simple as that.

Edited December 10 by Schmidtfire

[Bucic]

@Schmidtfire

1. I don't wanna be the jolly optimist but I don't think it's the end of the paid update scop3, even on top of the already confirmed vortices and additional skins. That said no new radar visuals (at least) on release, that bit alone, fared badly on the prospective reception by the fan base.

2. Even to me as a Pole discussing a pizza-worth cost of such an optional cosmetic update seems off.

Edited December 10 by Bucic

[Alba57]

22 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

not a fanboy, just a normal person that wouldn’t work for free and so I don't expect others to do so either, but I really don’t want to argue with you so will add you to the ignore list and be done with this subject.

[Cab]

32 minutes ago, Art-J said:

Speaking strictly about this aspect, I'd say there's option 3 -company should set the price of product according to its actual value

No one does this. Sellers set the highest price they think people will pay. The inherent value of the product doesn't matter.

[Mainstay]

Im sorry but i dont buy the +7000hours remark...

I bought the upgrade for 10$ but tbh i really wanted an upgraded radar, digital comms and nav and the abilty to carry more sorts of ordnance like extra Fox 2's and mavs....

Bit disappointed tbh

[Bucic]

I was reeeaally hoping for the new landing gear physics on release day, since the 5 is poised to get it anyway and since that requires integration with the actual model animations.

 

Anyway, here's for some impressions along the way while doing a regular MP mission.

 

Edited December 10 by Bucic

[VF19_Congo]

A warning about the previous liveries being disabled would have been fair.

I probably have 1000 hours invested in F-5E liveries over the years, with

hundreds of hours this year alone. Fortunately, I was able to disable the upgrade

and have my old F-5E back. Sorry ED, you can keep the money I paid, but you

can't replace all the work I've done on the module with my own custom cockpits,

skins and textures, they were bought with a much more valuable currency.

There were 381 community skins for the F-5E, let alone the unpublished ones like mine.

Edited December 12 by VF19_Congo
completeness

[some1]

On 12/9/2024 at 10:43 PM, Bucic said:

I don't even make liveries and even I know a new 3D mesh won't be compatible with old textures. And for good. They were made based on a poor resolution template. You can fly your old skins in Flaming Cliffs I suppose.

To be honest the liveries situation is what is holding me off from buying and installing the module right now. Thing is, I haven't installed any repaints for F-5, and I still have (in my vanilla game) something like 20 liveries for USA, 16 for Switzerland, and a dozen or two spread between other countries: Iran, Greece, Turkey, Norway, each have several, other operators at least one.

And now we're swapping all this for 7 liveries in total, with a promise for 5 more coming "soon" in some undefined future... that doesn't sound like an upgrade.

I really wish ED reversed their priorities and put those 7000 (or whatever) manhours into remodelling the cockpit and just bumping exterior textures, instead of remodelling the exterior and just bumping interior textures. More than 95% of my time in DCS is spent in the cockpit view. Couldn't care less for 3D ammo feeds and opening service hatches.

Ah well, not the first puzzling decision from ED in 2024.

Edited December 12 by some1

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

9 minutes ago, some1 said:

Couldn't care less for 3D ammo feeds and opening service hatches.

[Bucic]

[heads up] Massive in cockpit shimmering because of broken MSAA

 

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

19 hours ago, VF19_Congo said:

A warning about the previous liveries being disabled would have been fair.

I probably have 1000 hours invested in F-5E liveries over the years, with

hundreds of hours this year alone. Fortunately, I was able to disable the upgrade

and have my old F-5E back. Sorry ED, you can keep the money I paid, but you

can't replace all the work I've done on the module with my own custom cockpits,

skins and textures, they were bought with a much more valuable currency.

There were 381 community skins for the F-5E, let alone the unpublished ones like mine.

there is no way any software developer is going to stop their job because of mods. It´s the other way around, mods shall adapt to the available base or core. And with the whole DCS World being a neverending "work in progress", it´s a bumpy road to keep updated.

[VF19_Congo]

The liveries seem to be in a compressed file called "liveries.edce".

I cannot find any info on the file format after several web searches.

I don't understand why ED would go down this path and make skinning

our aircraft even more difficult than it already is.

 

If I had the option and opportunity to create or convert skins for the new

model, I would be more enthusiastic about the upgrade, and probably get

to work creating content, but this seems weird. What is trying to be achieved

by locking out creators?

 

Click to enlarge

Edited December 12 by VF19_Congo

[Rudel_chw]

27 minutes ago, VF19_Congo said:

I don't understand why ED would go down this path and make skinning

our aircraft even more difficult than it already is.

 

I have to agree, I believe that ED is shooting themselves in the foot with this one. 

I'm no skinner, but I would have loved to edit a few training missions for this bird, but having the ModelViewer unable to open the cockpit shape file, and thus unable to learn which cockpit argument does what, killed all my interest on devoting time to this new F-5 .. I'd rather dedicate the time to an older Module, like the MiG-21  

[ThorBrasil]

13 minutes ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

I have to agree, I believe that ED is shooting themselves in the foot with this one. 

I'm no skinner, but I would have loved to edit a few training missions for this bird, but having the ModelViewer unable to open the cockpit shape file, and thus unable to learn which cockpit argument does what, killed all my interest on devoting time to this new F-5 .. I'd rather dedicate the time to an older Module, like the MiG-21  

The MiG 21 will also receive a new 3D model, so in the end it would be the same as the F5E Remastered.

[Rudel_chw]

4 minutes ago, ThorBrasil said:

The MiG 21 will also receive a new 3D model, so in the end it would be the same as the F5E Remastered.

 

Seems I will have to fly DCS for as long as possible, and then regrettably move over to another Sim    ... there is one where I can fly the SR-71 and the Avro Vulcan, that looks very promising as I enjoy more the flight than the combat part of the Sim.

Edited December 12 by Rudel_chw

[VF19_Congo]

1 hour ago, ThorBrasil said:

The MiG 21 will also receive a new 3D model, so in the end it would be the same as the F5E Remastered.

Well, I hope we are wrong and ED are just slow at providing us with the good news.

The Mig-21 is another jet that has a plethora of amazing liveries, like the F-5E had.

The first thing I made for the 21 was a nice bright red Soviet aerobatic scheme.

(The next thing was to clean the glass so I could actually see in front of me!)

 

I'm really hopeful that ED are going to keep modding options open, and not become

control freaks by locking down the fun stuff.

ED, please remember that not all your user base are gung ho, realism fanatical*

ace no.1 fighter pilots. A lot of us are here for the fun of it all, and having the

opportunity to just fly these amazing machines in our choice of glorious technocolor

is a major drawcard.

(*as in strictly historically correct livery, I think most of us love the realistic aircraft

of course, otherwise we would be flying a popular arcade game.)

 

Like Tess here below. She's having fun, spreading her wings, despite the confines

of her cold, grey "skin"

click to enlarge

Edited December 13 by VF19_Congo