F-35A Announcement discussion mega thread.

[tora117]

1 minute ago, PawlaczGMD said:

To be clear, I'm not a hardcore rivet-counter, and I hope that the F-35 will bring a lot of cash to ED so that the game can be developed in the future.

It does however bug me that they have clearly changed their fidelity policy because of the revenue potential of the F-35. Many requested features for existing modules are shot down because there is not enough documentation, or even because the a/c they modelled can carry a particular weapon, but wasn't seen doing it at a particular date.

The widely requested red planes, very needed to balance the "teams" to make DCS more of a combat simulator rather than cockpit or 1V1/airquake simulator, were also rejected because they cannot obtain the necessary documentation.

But now youtube videos of airshows and pilot comments are sufficient to model an aircraft that is by far the most sophisticated and modern in DCS. I just hope quality, or other EA modules and core features, will not be sacrificed for this. And frankly, I don't really buy the argument that this won't detract from core because it's a different team. Assigning devs to teams is a choice, and it's not like some people can only code planes, but not core features.

Prioritizing new EA modules over core features and existing modules screws over players who pay a lot of $$$ based on promises that are frequently delayed or never materialize.

Well said

[NineLine]

Just now, tora117 said:

I'm trying not to be a negative nancy but I'm sure myself and others are frustrated mostly because we are skeptical such an endeavor is even possible.

In the spirit of being positive, I am going to assume that such an announcement means we will get massively improved EW and datalink simulation, LOAL-capable AIM-9Xs and 120Ds, and all the other munitions that the F35 carried when it initially entered service.

If so that would be a massive addition to DCS.

I could even be hopeful that one day ED will leave its policy of restricting certain aircraft to a fixed point in time and allow the F16C and other aircraft to carry these new munitions.
An F16C with Hobbit, modern AIM-9Xs and 120s, and especially AESA, would help level the playing field in terms of "balancing".

The F-35 should bring improvements to a great many things. 

[AMEDooley]

I was a crew chief on the 35 and I can tell you with 100 percent certainty, you do not have any documentation for the 35. There’s no way you have access to ALIS. Hell, we couldn’t even get some answers during our engine training cause it was proprietary info from P&W, or the fact that they had to spend three hours declassifying the sim so we could use it for engine run class. I hope that you stop the whole “we cant use those docs/Youtube videos aren’t reliable” routine for other things since this is literally what you’ll be using for the 35. This statement bellow kind of destroys your credibility as it is, since you’re already admitting that you haven’t started development, you don’t know what you’ll end up with, and you’ve already announced it. I don’t mind you guys making the 35, it’ll be nice to start her up again. Kind of like when the Hornet came out, it was like coming back home. But stop with the most realistic schtick and “not enough documentation” schtick. I personally would have rather you announced a partnership with AI ATC, or Viacom Pro, or SRS, or any other members of the community that make DCS’s shortcomings better. I love flying in DCS, but those features are far more important to me than some fake as hell FF F-35A. 

9 minutes ago, NineLine said:

It will be like anything, and even the responses you allude to from us, some systems we will be able to do well, some we will be able to do ok, some we may not be able to do hardly at all. As we start development we will see where it all comes out, and share this with you all. I need to continue to stress, research on this aircraft has been going for 2+ years. We would not take this step without a reasonable amount of information being available to do this aircraft.

 

[NineLine]

2 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

The widely requested red planes, very needed to balance the "teams" to make DCS more of a combat simulator rather than cockpit or 1V1/airquake simulator, were also rejected because they cannot obtain the necessary documentation.

This is not entirely true, it's not always about documentation while that can be a result of the issues facing red aircraft it's not always the primary blocking issue. You can't get or use documentation if there are stringent laws about recreating certain aircraft. But I have seen that melting in some areas and growing colder in others. 

[wilbur81]

4 minutes ago, NineLine said:

but we never really show all our cards. 

A mark of wisdom...

[NineLine]

4 minutes ago, AMEDooley said:

I was a crew chief on the 35 and I can tell you with 100 percent certainty, you do not have any documentation for the 35. There’s no way you have access to ALIS. Hell, we couldn’t even get some answers during our engine training cause it was proprietary info from P&W, or the fact that they had to spend three hours declassifying the sim so we could use it for engine run class. I hope that you stop the whole “we cant use those docs/Youtube videos aren’t reliable” routine for other things since this is literally what you’ll be using for the 35. This statement bellow kind of destroys your credibility as it is, since you’re already admitting that you haven’t started development, you don’t know what you’ll end up with, and you’ve already announced it. I don’t mind you guys making the 35, it’ll be nice to start her up again. Kind of like when the Hornet came out, it was like coming back home. But stop with the most realistic schtick and “not enough documentation” schtick. I personally would have rather you announced a partnership with AI ATC, or Viacom Pro, or SRS, or any other members of the community that make DCS’s shortcomings better. I love flying in DCS, but those features are far more important to me than some fake as hell FF F-35A. 

 

As I said, we cannot share everything we have been doing with this research, but we are confident we can recreate the F-35 to DCS standards. 

[F-2]

5 minutes ago, NineLine said:

This is not entirely true, it's not always about documentation while that can be a result of the issues facing red aircraft it's not always the primary blocking issue. You can't get or use documentation if there are stringent laws about recreating certain aircraft. But I have seen that melting in some areas and growing colder in others. 

I have run into three people who managed to legally obtain Su-30mk documentation in their respective countries. If I could suggest a target for your research team it would be that.

[AMEDooley]

2 minutes ago, NineLine said:

As I said, we cannot share everything we have been doing with this research, but we are confident we can recreate the F-35 to DCS standards. 

You will not be able to recreate it to the “most realistic study level” sim standard you claim. I’m not saying that as an opinion, but as a fact. You do not have, and will never get, the docs required to make it to that level. What they show in those demos, both air and tech, is no where close to reality. If you believe that you can, I have bridge to sell ya!

[Leva80]

I typically come to ED's defense when they get crapped on, but putting out this half baked module is shocking. So much for all that passion for accurate modeling that gets preached around here. What a joke. 

[Oban]

1 minute ago, AMEDooley said:

You will not be able to recreate it to the “most realistic study level” sim standard you claim. I’m not saying that as an opinion, but as a fact. You do not have, and will never get, the docs required to make it to that level. What they show in those demos, both air and tech, is no where close to reality. If you believe that you can, I have bridge to sell ya!

This is a moot statement, as 99.999999999999999% of DCS users would never ever know what flying a real F35 is like...

ED are trying to reproduce a module as accurate as possible to real flight dynamics, performance and envelope...There isn't a sim out there on the commercial market that can truly replicate real flight, and the sensations of said flying... this is for entertainment purposes only. 

But again, this community feels they're SME's, you sir ARE the real deal, and you would be more of an expert than blokes here who have read books, and thrown a VR headset on, and all of a sudden, they'd be able to fly the Mach Loop, inverted, in the dark, in real life...

[NineLine]

7 minutes ago, Leva80 said:

I typically come to ED's defense when they get crapped on, but putting out this half baked module is shocking. So much for all that passion for accurate modeling that gets preached around here. What a joke. 

Interesting to call something half-baked with no idea what it will look like when it's released. The bar is quite high. 

[Oban]

7 minutes ago, Leva80 said:

I typically come to ED's defense when they get crapped on, but putting out this half baked module is shocking. So much for all that passion for accurate modeling that gets preached around here. What a joke. 

Oh, you've actually been testing it to make such a statement then ? Oh let me guess, you're a real F35 pilot, and know what you're talking about?

[Nealius]

So why isn't the logic that was used to decline development of the Superhornet and other WW2 modules that lack sufficient data being equally applied to the F-35?

If this were FC3 level, then sure. But it's being marketed as full-fidelity, which means sensor integration systems when we aren't even sure if our Lot20 Hornet, a much older and much less classified airframe, will get its sensor integration systems modeled at all.

Edited January 17 by Nealius

[NineLine]

9 minutes ago, AMEDooley said:

You will not be able to recreate it to the “most realistic study level” sim standard you claim. I’m not saying that as an opinion, but as a fact. You do not have, and will never get, the docs required to make it to that level. What they show in those demos, both air and tech, is no where close to reality. If you believe that you can, I have bridge to sell ya!

We believe we will be able to create the most realistic F-35 simulation in the flight sim game market, yes. 

Just now, Nealius said:

So why isn't the logic that was used to decline development of the Superhornet and other WW2 modules that lack sufficient data being equally applied to the F-35? 

We never declined the Super Hornet, the SH would not happen until the C is done. 

[Nealius]

3 minutes ago, NineLine said:

We believe we will be able to create the most realistic F-35 simulation in the flight sim game market, yes. 

A modder could make the same claim by reskinning a flaming cliffs module within the next week. 

[Hammer1-1]

2 hours ago, NineLine said:

I think that was more about who was wanting to do it rather than what he was wanting to do. 

no, he was going to do the F-35.

[NineLine]

1 minute ago, Hammer1-1 said:

no, he was going to do the F-35.

Probably read what I said again.

2 minutes ago, Nealius said:

A modder could make the same claim by reskinning a flaming cliffs module within the next week. 

Glad to see you have 0 faith in us over someone working on a mod for a week. You are ignoring everything I am saying, so if you are not interested in the F-35, that is fine, but you can let those that are be excited. Its ok, it wont hurt you. 

[EA-18G_BlockII]

So..... i guess other 3rd parties can follow suit now in term of making 4.5+ - 5th gen planes? i mean other devs, not just Heatblur with their Typhoon @NineLine

[AMEDooley]

NL your belief is wrong. It will not be realistic. But if you want to claim that it’s realistic to YouTube videos then I would believe that. I am not a SME on the 35. I was a crew chief on it for like 5 years, no where near long enough to be a SME. I am not claiming to be one, but I know what we had to do the job and what we didn’t have. So if I lacked a lot of documentation to be good at the job as a mechanic, there is no way you have enough to make this accurate. But as others have pointed out, only a handful will truly know the difference. Myself not being one of them. 

[NineLine]

Just now, EA-18G_BlockII said:

So..... i guess other 3rd parties can follow suit now in term of making 4.5+ - 5th gen planes? i mean other devs, not just Heatblur with their Typhoon @NineLine

If they put in the work, do the research and can show us they can do it, why not? 

[Oban]

Just now, Nealius said:

A modder could make the same claim by reskinning a flaming cliffs module within the next week. 

You mean like VSN ?

There's not many modders out there that have fully detailed/clickable cockpits, that look and feel balanced and accurate, so I'm not buying what you said.

Slapping lipstick on a pig doesn't change the fact it's still a pig..

If you don't like the concept, why not create a module that people want, I mean, you make it sound easy as pie... I can't wait to see what you will release, I'm excited already, as I feel your expertise would produce something amazing..

[NineLine]

Just now, AMEDooley said:

NL your belief is wrong. It will not be realistic. But if you want to claim that it’s realistic to YouTube videos then I would believe that. I am not a SME on the 35. I was a crew chief on it for like 5 years, no where near long enough to be a SME. I am not claiming to be one, but I know what we had to do the job and what we didn’t have. So if I lacked a lot of documentation to be good at the job as a mechanic, there is no way you have enough to make this accurate. But as others have pointed out, only a handful will truly know the difference. Myself not being one of them. 

The team is happy with the research they have done, and their ability to make a DCS level simulation of the F-35, it will not be 100% accurate, we are not claiming that. 

[CallsignPunch]

5 hours ago, J3ST3R said:

Not really sure how I feel about this one. For years, customers have been told "no we can't make that because of the lack of data and documents available". Now, you can get all that information from watching some videos. DCS's main selling point is the accuracy of the flight models and the attention to the minor details that other platforms don't provide. I'm happy to see more aircraft but this one is a bit far fetched given where dcs has come from in my opinion.

This.......all the fan boys should go enjoy the arcade jet in MSFS.....this thing could ruin DCS Multiplayer.

4 hours ago, NineLine said:

No, that is not true. a Superhornet, these days, is very possible. Data on them is not an issue. Thanks. 

Make it happen Cap'n! 2026 and Beyond for both the E and F......pretty sure the C is your best selling module.  The Super Hornet is the next logic choice financially.

[AMEDooley]

Just now, NineLine said:

The team is happy with the research they have done, and their ability to make a DCS level simulation of the F-35, it will not be 100% accurate, we are not claiming that. 

Dude, it won’t even be 30%. I’m sorry man. I am not doubting the hard work you’ve put into it, but it won’t be realistic at all. Again I’d rather other, far more important things worked on and finished. I love the Hornet you’ve made, it’s pretty close to what I remember working on even down to the sound of the engines coming on line. But the 35 is a horse of a different color. And yes in case your wondering I did work on both aircraft for two different branches.

[NineLine]

Just now, AMEDooley said:

Dude, it won’t even be 30%. I’m sorry man. I am not doubting the hard work you’ve put into it, but it won’t be realistic at all. Again I’d rather other, far more important things worked on and finished. I love the Hornet you’ve made, it’s pretty close to what I remember working on even down to the sound of the engines coming on line. But the 35 is a horse of a different color. And yes in case your wondering I did work on both aircraft for two different branches.

Look I don't want to fight with you on this anymore, it would be cool if you wanted to help out with things you could talk about, even testing it might be cool, but you are so negative, and I get it. This is a game, we are making a new product for it, it will be the most realistic F-35 out there, even if it is not near 100%. That is what I have for you, I do not doubt your knowledge and experience with the -35, and that is very cool. But we don't share everything we have, everything we are doing and everything we know or have contacts for. So we can keep going back and forth, or we can wait and see.