Caucasus Wishlist Thread

[Bremspropeller]

On 5/15/2023 at 3:50 PM, upyr1 said:

Hence the reason for Stalingrad. As I think it would I think we would get the most asset overlap.

There is none. Unless you want to fight Bf 109K-4s over Stalingrad in your I-16.

[_Hoss]

How about the Pusan perimeter? Yalu River.... Chosin Reservoir, Toko Ri, we've got a good enough plane set for that. 

[upyr1]

On 5/19/2023 at 2:06 PM, _Hoss said:

How about the Pusan perimeter? Yalu River.... Chosin Reservoir, Toko Ri, we've got a good enough plane set for that. 

 

Korea is on my wishlist, however, we will need RedFor assets for the Korean-war. As I keep pointing out the reason I am asking for the Stalingrad map too, all comes down to having a proper asset set for as many modules as possible. Right now we have two Stalinist-era modules and a third one is on the way. The I-16 is inter/early war, the MiG-15 is Korean war-era, and the La-7 is late war.

The MiG-15's asset set would overlap the most with the La-7's asset set and the least with the I-16's asset set. So when ED starts adding RedFor assets to the WWII asset pack it would make the most sense to focus on the era where the I-16 and MiG-15 asset sets overlap the most.

[Logan54]

Very interested in Caucasus V2.0 And wish more old ATC towers therenull

[Wild_Weasel_31]

Some journalist research were posted about Russian Tu-22M3 Backfire's dislocation recently.

https://www.radiosvoboda.org/a/news-skhemy-armiya-rf-aerodrom-mozdok/32471034.html

While researching satellite photos I noticed some differences between planes parking places in DCS and IRL on Mozdok airbase. For example, some of Backfires were standing on aprons number 23, 24 and 25 (according to DCS numberation). Also, the very right spot, which is not marked as a parking place in DCS, is also used for Tu-22M3 parking. I made some graphics to comparise satellite photos to DCS screenshot.

Spoiler

Also, I have some doubts about current status of parking spots with numbers from 32 to 39. According to Google Maps, it seems that taxiway, which connects them with main apron, is now cut off, and these parkings are currently used only for ground vehicles.

Some parking spots, apron and control tower seems to be removed as well. Marked them with ? signs and arrows on picture n.2

Spoiler

If i didn't notice some more changes, feel free to correct me in this topic.

[Ironhand]

The spaces currently missing still existed in 2014 but look like they might not have been in use. (Edit: The map and base were first released in 2009, IIRC.)

 

Imagery from 2016 shows the area torn up. Subsequent imagery shows the area repaved as it exists currently.

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Ironhand
Add subsequent imagery

[cfrag]

On 5/11/2023 at 4:49 PM, SilentSparrow said:

My entire point is that the map should model every part of the map.

That's certainly something we could hope for. Then again, to me maps in games are abstract entities that exist as a foundation where we can put our pieces to play on. It surely would be a nice addition if it retained some semblance to reality, but - especially for a free map like Caucasus or Marianas - a reasonable trade-off to playability is acceptable to me. Unfortunately, I've never in my life had the opportunity to visit the Caucasus region (although I'll try and make a visit to Batumi in the next few years) - so there is no way for me to compare that map to personal experience. Unlike the Nevada, Normandy, Syria and Sinai maps, all regions that I am privileged to have had visited before. To be honest, they don't exactly reflect what I remember from my visits there either. But that's not an issue for me. What matters to me is that we receive another set piece (theater) to play on. 

And wrt 'the map should model every part of the map' - it does. It simply doesn't reflect reality in some parts. [And don't get me started on the 'Persian Gulf' map that doesn't map out the Persian Gulf, just the Strait of Hormuz region. And still I'm ok with that - another foundation to play my games on.] 

... going through the various map regions (Caucasus, Syria, SA, ...) with Google Earth (hey, Google Earth VR is awesome for this!) also reveals many obvious discrepancies. I'm not sure what it is you are looking for in a map. If it's accuracy in relation to the real world, then yeah, there's a lot room to improve, in all maps. If it's fitness to play a fun DCS mission, then IMHO Caucasus is one of the best for my playstyle (followed by Syria). It doesn't require a high degree of realism for that, merely geographic features that allow a certain playstyle. That's what I'm looking for in maps: a fun foundation for missions, good looks, and good performance. For me, accuracy trails behind by a far margin. YMMV (and it apprarently does  )

[Sukhoi-37 Terminator]

I wish some low poly trees can be created as static objects from ED team in the next update this can work out quite well.

[Mike Force Team]

I would like ED or a skilled developer to create a Red Sea Map.  The map includes the Sinai Canal, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and other important countries and waterways.  

Mike Force Team

Red Sea Map--Downloaded on Jan. 24 2024.docx

Edited January 25, 2024 by Mike Force Team

[GEIST]

Hi! It's time...

I don't run the business at ED but if you offer a free flight weekend and with all modules and someone loads up caucasus, that potential client will probably fly off somewhere else. But that's not why I am posting - I own quite a lot of modules and all maps but it's just not quite there yet. The new maps are better and I'll post my statement here but some essential problems still remain with these - they all have a comical look to them.

Thank you whoever made this video as it shows it in perfect clarity. Comparing the two you can see a few major issues:

• The color mapping is off (it has always been and looks like it's the case with the new maps) which gives DCS it's distinct comical look. Saturation is too high. Maybe some RGB CYMK conversion issue that happened when the game was developed but there is clearly something off. And this only related to the maps - the planes do look great! Or maybe it's just how the color range is rendered... I know there have been many discussions about it always concluding it's correct but it isn't. Color Theory/Colorspaces/Rendering are hugely complex topics and if the rough RGB value is in the same realm does not mean that is reflects it accurately. There is some logical flaw in how this is rendered which gives this odd perception of the world.
• Trees do not blend into the scenery. Trees usually look like the scenery and tend to blend into it. In DCS it looks like they have 1 color and that's set everywhere so they stand out in the bring laser green with a hard edge compared to the ground which doesn't work very well. I think some tech is needed that blends the color of the trees based on the satellite data (like the grass) to blend them better into the environment
• 10m height levels with normal maps are not cutting it anymore unfortunately. I can see satellite data is being used but it seems so low-res. I know new maps are coming but I don't think that was resolved yet.
• Use photoscan workflows. The blockout building and instance them around the scene based on satellite maps isn't working very well. My suggestion would to scan 1 city with a drone flyover and then you can at least build your library of houses, streets, sights based on real datasets.
• I've tested creating ground 3D assets in the past and the engine can handle it (I went overboard with my tests and you need a 3080 to run it but I feel like there is a middle ground between performance and pushing the visual fidelity a bit more).

Thanks for reading!
 

[Rudel_chw]

23 minutes ago, GEIST said:

that potential client will probably fly off somewhere else.

please, where would that somewhere be? … I have actually looked, but have been unable to find another Combat sim that is better than this one

[sirrah]

In my opinion, Caucasus still looks quite amazing in the winter

Sure, its scenery could use some love, but then again, it's free..

 

Oh, and by the way:

34 minutes ago, GEIST said:

Thank you whoever made this video ...
 

What video are you referring to?

[GEIST]

@Sirrah: Sorry had to remove the link - just search dcs in youtube and you'll come across it. 
Also what I forgot to mention is that the issue with the maps goes beyond the look good factor.

• There is a much reduced sense of speed when flying at low altitude as everything looks very samey
• Callouts during a mission make limited sense. 'The big house next to the main road' usually could be any of the 20 standing around that area. Cities at least have roads, in open terrain there is just not much to go by. There are no unique features to them to be more specific. Just need to give GPS or laser coordinates.
• Sense of scale is also off. It's better in VR but somehow there is a bit of a minitiature world feeling in DCS

@Rudel. Noted.

[cfrag]

43 minutes ago, GEIST said:

If you offer a free flight weekend and with all modules and someone loads up caucasus, that potential client will probably fly off somewhere else.

Perhaps. Probably the free Syria map. IMHO, although I do understand the gist of what you are saying, I'm not convinced that the map in which you are flying will have the most impact on your decision if you like the simulation of a military jet that can also fly in other maps. If you understand the concept that better planes than the ones that come free with DCS (the Su-25T and T51), I believe that we can assume that the potential client also understands the concept that better maps are also not free. Wouldn't you agree?

 

43 minutes ago, GEIST said:

Thank you whoever made this video as it shows it in perfect clarity.

Please be advised that there is no video in evidence with your post. But I'm not sure that it matters much

43 minutes ago, GEIST said:

Comparing the two you can see a few major issues:

Unfortunately, since we do not which 'two' you are speaking of, we can't follow your reasoning.

43 minutes ago, GEIST said:

• The color mapping is off (it has always been and looks like it's the case with the new maps) which gives DCS it's distinct comical look. Saturation is too high. Maybe some RGB CYMK conversion issue that happened when the game was developed but there is clearly something off.

Are you aware that you can apply filters to enhance your own experience in 'Settings-->Color Grading'? And why do you assume some RGB-CYMK translation issue? DCS does not produce output for print, so I doubt that there will be any CYMK conversion involved. Most graphics cards work in RGB space.

Since I do not know which videos you talk about, you may also want to remind yourself that most videos, when done professionally, run through a post-production process that (sometimes significantly) changes the colors of the output material. That's because reality often looks too boring, and many video producers prefer a more colorful kick, or want to establish a color theme. That's art, though.

43 minutes ago, GEIST said:

Color Theory/Colorspaces/Rendering are hugely complex topics

They are not. They are straightforward linear transformations. How color is perceived and interpreted by the human eye, on the other hand is. 

43 minutes ago, GEIST said:

There is some logical flaw in how this is rendered which gives this odd perception of the world.

That appears to be your perception. I'd like some demonstrable fact rather than 'it feels wrong to me'. I'm not saying that I don't believe you or that there is nothing wrong - I simply would like to see examples, and some form of normative reference to establish what is 'correct'. We can go from there.

43 minutes ago, GEIST said:

Trees do not blend into the scenery.

Indeed. No discussion there. 

43 minutes ago, GEIST said:

10m height levels with normal maps are not cutting it anymore unfortunately.

While I agree that the density of the Caucasus map grid is a bit lacking, it does produce the best performance results, though. If I need a well-performing map, Caucasus is the map to go to. Probably because of low detail.

43 minutes ago, GEIST said:

Use photoscan workflows.

It sounds to me as if you a proposing a solution before you define the problem. I recommend that we agree on the issue before we leap to conclusions on how the solve it.

43 minutes ago, GEIST said:

I've tested creating ground 3D assets in the past and the engine can handle it (I went overboard with my tests and you need a 3080 to run it but I feel like there is a middle ground between performance and pushing the visual fidelity a bit more).

I'm sot sure what you are saying here except that you agree that high detail comes at the cost of performance.

What is it that you are looking for? More love for Caucasus? I don't think many would disagree here. Expect I'd like better visuals without the cost of performance. That may not be in the cards at this time.

Edited May 3, 2024 by cfrag

[Beirut]

2 minutes ago, sirrah said:

In my opinion, Caucasus still looks quite amazing in the winter

Sure, its scenery could use some love, but then again, it's free..

 

And it provides a safe space for performance that everyone has. If you want to try a heavy scenario, seems that's the map to do it on. If it could be further optimized, okay, but I wouldn't want anything done to it to make it harder to run. Good to have an easy fast map, so to speak.

[OldFlyer]

1 minute ago, Beirut said:

And it provides a safe space for performance that everyone has.

I think this is key. I agree that the map could do with an update but as a freebie it's a good entry-level map that isn't too demanding on the PC.

[cfrag]

4 minutes ago, GEIST said:

search dcs in youtube and you'll come across it. 

and 

4 minutes ago, GEIST said:

There is a much reduced sense of speed when flying at low altitude

and 

5 minutes ago, GEIST said:

Callouts during a mission make limited sense.

and

5 minutes ago, GEIST said:

Sense of scale is also off.

Are you trolling?

[GEIST]

15 minutes ago, cfrag said:

They are not. They are straightforward linear transformations. How color is perceived and interpreted by the human eye, on the other hand is. 

Thanks for your response. Good points made on your end. This one however I have to disagree. Colorspaces are hugely a complex topic and depend on lots of factors to get it right. Assuming everything is RGB and using linear transformations will get you where we are. CMYK was just an example if anything was based off photo reference there is a chance conversions went wrong - e.g. compare DCS to a photo of a magazine image printed some time ago and say the colors look correct. That's where your perception part comes in but that's not grounded in any data - perception of color is relatively uniform (unless a person has some health related issue) - scale on the other hand is very subjective.

6 minutes ago, cfrag said:

and 

and 

and

Are you trolling?

I am not trolling. I see we don't see eye to eye on this but that's all good.. different perceptions I suppose.

Edited May 3, 2024 by GEIST

[sirrah]

5 minutes ago, GEIST said:

Thanks for your response. Good points made on your end. This one however I have to disagree. Colorspaces are hugely a complex topic and depend on lots of factors to get it right. Assuming everything is RGB and using linear transformations will get you where we are. CMYK was just an example if anything was based off photo reference there is a chance conversions went wrong - e.g. compare DCS to a photo of a magazine image printed some time ago and say the colors look correct. That's where your perception part comes in - but perception of color is relatively uniform (unless you have some health related issue) - scale on the other hand is very subjective.

I am not trolling. I see we don't see eye to eye on this but that's all good.. different perceptions I suppose.

I think cfrag is referring to the already countless (sometimes pretty heated) discussions about these topics. Especially the "sense of speed" one. (you might want to do a quick forum search on that one, to understand cfrag's concern )

[cfrag]

Just now, GEIST said:

compare DCS to a photo of a magazine image printed some time ago and say the colors look correct.

Seriously? Do you think a magazine uses imagery that is not enhanced in post to look better? Never use magazine prints as reference. Get yourself a color reference card (any good photography shop has them), and have them present inside your establishing shots so you can color correct in post.

2 minutes ago, GEIST said:

Colorspaces are hugely a complex topic and depend on lots of factors to get it right.

Again, no. The getting it 'right' part is complex, but that has nothing to do with color space, and all with the way biology works.

4 minutes ago, GEIST said:

perception of color is relatively uniform

Again, seriously? It's not. Never was, never will. Different eyes have different perceptions (there are eyes that can't see some colors, you know?), and the same eye has different perception based on the length and intensity it looked at other colors a second before. Human eye's color perception cannot be relied on for anything. That's what we have machines that look at wave length for.

[GEIST]

Ah gotcha! Yeah definitely didn't intend to troll - just some observations I've made. 
Will try and find some topics related to that now

 

[GEIST]

9 minutes ago, cfrag said:

Again, no. The getting it 'right' part is complex, but that has nothing to do with color space, and all with the way biology works.

Jup! Super easy!
http://www2.mat.dtu.dk/people/J.Gravesen/pub/48-2015-colour.pdf
And of course are we talking about perception of color - that's what colorspaces are all about.

11 minutes ago, cfrag said:

Different eyes have different perceptions (there are eyes that can't see some colors, you know?)

As I've stated above I am excluding people with eye related issues (color blindness included). But that's not what we're talking about here, right?

But let's leave it at this hehe - I think I can say with quite certainty that the colors are off in DCS. I can't say for certain in any way if that's based on colorspace, rendering techniques or filters applied but something is not right.

Thanks for the suggestion of the filters btw - will give that a go and see if that helps!

[cfrag]

17 minutes ago, GEIST said:

Jup! Super easy!
http://www2.mat.dtu.dk/people/J.Gravesen/pub/48-2015-colour.pdf
And of course are we talking about perception of color - that's what colorspaces are all about.

I really do not want to be contrarian, so I think that you may simply want to read up a little bit more about color space. Color space is about representing the exact same color in multiple different 'spaces' -- by determining the source color's coordinates in that 'space'. There are multiple color spaces (for example CYM(K) and RGB) that are created for different purposes. Going from one color space to another is usually a linear transformation - meaning that the same color may have different coordinates in different spaces, but going back and forth between those spaces will always return the same color. Much like switching between Cartesian and polar coordinates. Using one representation can be beneficial for some applications (for example to simulate subtractive color mixing in CYM, and additive in RGB). But the color that is referenced in both is always the same color. The human eye, on the other hand, is very different, and so far we have not found a way transform a color (any color space) into that of the human eye - we are still looking for a color space that linearly can transform any color to 'human eye space". That's also pretty much what the paper that you kindly referenced to states:

Quote

no matter what inner product you put on the space the resulting Euclidean distance does not corresponds to human perception of difference between colours

So maybe you want to re-read that very nice paper.

Edited May 3, 2024 by cfrag

[Exorcet]

Caucuses looks great to me, I don't understand the complaints against it. It's also the only map with seasons. I don't use it much anymore because of the close proximity of all the airfields and the lack of any airbases in Turkey, but as is it seems fine.

[aceviper]

Try this texture replacement mod

Caucasus is still beautiful