Possible replacements for the Razbam modules if reconcilation isn't possible?

[upyr1]

Since it looks like the sun is setting on the Razbam modules.  I'm wondering it would be out of the question for Ed and possibly some other developer to get started on a replacement for them. 

[Kang]

I doubt that's going to happen, as it might cause more trouble.

It would force the previous modules into deprecation, thus only speeding up their decay status of 'continue to work as-is'. That would make me at least not so happy about paying full price to get them back again. Any sort of discount for previous owners would eat a lot into the profit margin, seeing how, say, the Harrier enthusiasts most likely are previous owners in a vast majority of the DCS community.

But one can dream, I reckon.

[Exorcet]

Replacement as in someone else develops the same planes and the people who own the originals get to swap them out, sounds unlikely. Replacement as in someone else at some point makes the same planes and sells them as new modules, sure. I have no qualms buying them, if well made and supported, again as they would be their own individual modules with all the work that entails, but I wouldn't expect that for quite some time.

[upyr1]

57 minutes ago, Kang said:

I doubt that's going to happen, as it might cause more trouble.

It would force the previous modules into deprecation, thus only speeding up their decay status of 'continue to work as-is'. That would make me at least not so happy about paying full price to get them back again. Any sort of discount for previous owners would eat a lot into the profit margin, seeing how, say, the Harrier enthusiasts most likely are previous owners in a vast majority of the DCS community.

But one can dream, I reckon.

@NineLine Would have more information but if nothing changes the module will stop working after 2.9 so this means we'll either need to maintain an old DCS 2.9 along side our hardrives, ED and RB have to come to an agrement, or ED needs to step in and get replacement modules going. 

 

54 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Replacement as in someone else develops the same planes and the people who own the originals get to swap them out, sounds unlikely. Replacement as in someone else at some point makes the same planes and sells them as new modules, sure. I have no qualms buying them, if well made and supported, again as they would be their own individual modules with all the work that entails, but I wouldn't expect that for quite some time.

I know that ED has given some people refunds for the Strike Eagle it was for in store credits. 

[Kang]

5 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

@NineLine Would have more information but if nothing changes the module will stop working after 2.9 so this means we'll either need to maintain an old DCS 2.9 along side our hardrives, ED and RB have to come to an agrement, or ED needs to step in and get replacement modules going. 

 

Perhaps you are right and I am really misjudging the timelines there. No idea how far away a DCS 3.0 really is.

[ruxtmp]

58 minutes ago, Kang said:

Perhaps you are right and I am really misjudging the timelines there. No idea how far away a DCS 3.0 really is.

Based on there current rate of updates 10 to 15 years

[Mr_sukebe]

My thoughts and hope on this is:

- I’m not expecting Razbam back

- I’m hoping that the initial agreement between Raz and ED was purely about the argument over payment to Razbam and the potential issue about intellectual property

- if the above is true, that it might still leave the Harrier, M2000, Mig19 and F15e modules as IP property  owned by Razbam.  If so, then may be Raz could sell the IP/source code to ED or another 3rd party, who could then take on responsibility to maintain and also the opportunity to start selling them again.  Being realistic, I’d be a bit skeptical of the sales potential for the first 3 of the modules that I mentioned, despite owning and liking them all.  However, I’d happily buy the F15E again, and for a developer who fancies getting into DCS, it might be a good way to open some doors.

[upyr1]

1 hour ago, ruxtmp said:

Based on there current rate of updates 10 to 15 years

Hopefully we'll see a Razbam/ED reunion. I know a lot of mud was flying but when money is involved emotions can get high but portraits of Mr. Franklin or King Charles' can calm things down. 

1 hour ago, Mr_sukebe said:

My thoughts and hope on this is:

- I’m not expecting Razbam back

- I’m hoping that the initial agreement between Raz and ED was purely about the argument over payment to Razbam and the potential issue about intellectual property

- if the above is true, that it might still leave the Harrier, M2000, Mig19 and F15e modules as IP property  owned by Razbam.  If so, then may be Raz could sell the IP/source code to ED or another 3rd party, who could then take on responsibility to maintain and also the opportunity to start selling them again.  Being realistic, I’d be a bit skeptical of the sales potential for the first 3 of the modules that I mentioned, despite owning and liking them all.  However, I’d happily buy the F15E again, and for a developer who fancies getting into DCS, it might be a good way to open some doors.

If Razbam isn't coming back the I hope they are willing to sell the modules to Eagle or other developers.  My dream would be to see HB take over the Mud Hen so we get jester as the F-15E WSO

[upyr1]

2 hours ago, Kang said:

Perhaps you are right and I am really misjudging the timelines there. No idea how far away a DCS 3.0 really is.

I don't know the timelines but given the choice between buying replacements and not having the aircraft in question I would rather buy the ED Harrier 

[Rotor_Vibes]

What about different versions of the aircraft from Eagle Dynamics instead? Something like a Mirage 2000-5, Mirage 2000D, Harrier AV-8B Plus or Harrier GR7/9? F-15EX maybe?

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Rotor_Vibes said:

What about different versions of the aircraft from Eagle Dynamics instead? Something like a Mirage 2000-5, Mirage 2000D, Harrier AV-8B Plus or Harrier GR7/9? F-15EX maybe?

Now you’re talkin’

[upyr1]

3 hours ago, Rotor_Vibes said:

What about different versions of the aircraft from Eagle Dynamics instead? Something like a Mirage 2000-5, Mirage 2000D, Harrier AV-8B Plus or Harrier GR7/9? F-15EX maybe?

Why not multiple versions?

 

[Tom Kazansky]

The "when?" seems to be the problem to me not the "why not?".

 

[Lace]

One easy fix for me would be to add LANTIRN to the Viper.  At least then we have an all-weather low-level strike capability again, at least until the Tornado (or eventually maybe F-111 or A-6?).  

Another 'easy' one is to develop the F-35B to replace the Harrier - if it is a good enough replacement for the USMC and RAF/FAA then it is good enough for ED.  A lot of the work will be done already for the 'A'.  Personally I'd prefer a GR3 which would be great for Germany and the Falklands, but not many other places, and that would be a big project.

[Tank50us]

Honestly, with exception to the Mig19, ED has most of the documentation to make a decent 'replacement pack' for those that didn't get refunds, but these aircraft would, by necessity, have to be different versions of what RB made, JUST IN CASE someone in RBs legal department rolls up a newspaper.

• F-15E can be replaced, like for like, with a different version of the E... I wouldn't go with the EX, as it's too new and there isn't enough documents available yet... but a 1989 or 1990 E model? That'd work.
• The Mirage 2000C can be replaced by a more recent M2k, maybe the Mirage 2005?
• Harrier can be replaced by the last USMC version... which has the Hornets radar... which is already in game
• The Mig19... that's a tough one since getting Russian Documents is notoriously difficult. But there is a team working on the Mig17 right now.

The real catch is how much development time would be needed to get each one working.

A replacement Strike Eagle could probably be in our hands inside of 6 months with BASIC functionality (A/A weapons, Dumb and Laser-guided Bombs, working flight and damage models), but that's only because they have most of the work done for them with the F-15C (same engines, radar, etc).

But a new Harrier or Mirage? We'd need a couple years. Minimum.

 

This all being said... I just hope they can figure something out with RB, either to get them working again, or get the source codes. But until then... pray.

[TheFreshPrince]

Diverting time and ressources from other projects just to replace these aircraft doesn't seem right. ED seems to be overburdened already with their stuff. It would be much easier, if RB just continued the support.

[Tank50us]

24 minutes ago, TheFreshPrince said:

Diverting time and ressources from other projects just to replace these aircraft doesn't seem right. ED seems to be overburdened already with their stuff. It would be much easier, if RB just continued the support.

Well.. If RB isn't coming back to keep their modules working... I'm sure there's a few people who'd be happy to accept a new job...

[upyr1]

2 hours ago, Lace said:

One easy fix for me would be to add LANTIRN to the Viper.  At least then we have an all-weather low-level strike capability again, at least until the Tornado (or eventually maybe F-111 or A-6?).  

Another 'easy' one is to develop the F-35B to replace the Harrier - if it is a good enough replacement for the USMC and RAF/FAA then it is good enough for ED.  A lot of the work will be done already for the 'A'.  Personally I'd prefer a GR3 which would be great for Germany and the Falklands, but not many other places, and that would be a big project.

The problem with this is that people want the F-15E, Mirage, MiG-19 and Harrier. 

1 hour ago, TheFreshPrince said:

Diverting time and ressources from other projects just to replace these aircraft doesn't seem right. ED seems to be overburdened already with their stuff. It would be much easier, if RB just continued the support.

Do you know what that will take? Becuse I don't. Now unless that happens we're left with two options lose the aircraft or another developer produces some modules. 

[Lace]

19 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

The problem with this is that people want the F-15E, Mirage, MiG-19 and Harrier. 

 

Of course.  So do I.  But I also want the capabilities they bring.  I enjoy doing IMC terrain following in the F-15E. but not because it is an F-15E necessarily.  I like the variety of mission profile as much as the variety in aircraft type.

[TheFreshPrince]

vor einer Stunde schrieb upyr1:

The problem with this is that people want the F-15E, Mirage, MiG-19 and Harrier. 

Do you know what that will take? Becuse I don't. Now unless that happens we're left with two options lose the aircraft or another developer produces some modules. 

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Tank50us:

Well.. If RB isn't coming back to keep their modules working... I'm sure there's a few people who'd be happy to accept a new job...

Ideal would be, if another 3rd party dev like Heatblur took over the modules and its rights. I also want to keep my M2000, it's a fun module to fly. But this is all wishful thinking... If we are lucky, the new discussion and pressure on RB/ED will bring some new results.

[upyr1]

1 hour ago, Lace said:

Of course.  So do I.  But I also want the capabilities they bring.  I enjoy doing IMC terrain following in the F-15E. but not because it is an F-15E necessarily.  I like the variety of mission profile as much as the variety in aircraft type.

I've got no objections to the F-35B, or giving the F-16 the Lantern pod. I'm also looking forward to the A-6 and would love the F-111

[upyr1]

20 minutes ago, TheFreshPrince said:

Ideal would be, if another 3rd party dev like Heatblur took over the modules and its rights. I also want to keep my M2000, it's a fun module to fly. But this is all wishful thinking... If we are lucky, the new discussion and pressure on RB/ED will bring some new results.

HB should have done the F-15E in the first place. Even though the WSO is optional in the MUD Hen it should have had Jester. 

As for the rest- I really don't have a prefernce as to who supports them. All I know is that if RB isn't willing to return to DCS or sell the rights to their module to another developer then they should start discussions about new modules. 

[MAXsenna]

As much as I unconditionally love Heatblur, they haven't found the Holy Grail yet. Let them finish what they've already started.
As for the four modules? I don't think any other team can pick them up without also hiring the devs.
Personally, I don't know the dynamics inside Razbam, but since the devs haven't been paid, maybe they sit on the code and can start a new team and make a deal directly with ED. Nah, that's far too much hoping.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[upyr1]

3 hours ago, Tank50us said:

Honestly, with exception to the Mig19, ED has most of the documentation to make a decent 'replacement pack' for those that didn't get refunds, but these aircraft would, by necessity, have to be different versions of what RB made, JUST IN CASE someone in RBs legal department rolls up a newspaper.

I'd be fine with different variants. 

3 hours ago, Tank50us said:

• F-15E can be replaced, like for like, with a different version of the E... I wouldn't go with the EX, as it's too new and there isn't enough documents available yet... but a 1989 or 1990 E model? That'd work.

I am thinking the variant we have is from 2003. So a storm bird would be awesome for the Germany map.

3 hours ago, Tank50us said:

• The Mirage 2000C can be replaced by a more recent M2k, maybe the Mirage 2005?

It would be nice to see some French smart bombs and A2G missiles provided the data is available

3 hours ago, Tank50us said:

• Harrier can be replaced by the last USMC version... which has the Hornets radar... which is already in game

We really need to see the whole Harrier family. My thoughts.

a Faulklands war era Sea Harrier

Legacy Harrier- if the biggest differnce between the  USMC and RAF variants is paint, then I don't care. 

With the Harrier II, the plus version is a must, I also think a British Harrier II variant would be nice as well  which one I don't care as long as the differnce is more than just liveries

3 hours ago, Tank50us said:

• The Mig19... that's a tough one since getting Russian Documents is notoriously difficult. But there is a team working on the Mig17 right now.

Sinc the Mig-19 has been out of service for decades it might not be that big of a problem. The real issue is picking the variant. 

3 hours ago, Tank50us said:

The real catch is how much development time would be needed to get each one working.

A replacement Strike Eagle could probably be in our hands inside of 6 months with BASIC functionality (A/A weapons, Dumb and Laser-guided Bombs, working flight and damage models), but that's only because they have most of the work done for them with the F-15C (same engines, radar, etc).

The biggest question here is how many systems does ED have the code for already? The only request I'd have is, please license Jester. 

3 hours ago, Tank50us said:

But a new Harrier or Mirage? We'd need a couple years. Minimum.

 

This all being said... I just hope they can figure something out with RB, either to get them working again, or get the source codes. But until then... pray.

If making the announcement results in RB's legal team popping up. The best outcome would be getting a multi-variant module because Rambam decides selling their code would be an easy out 

.

 

[bfr]

4 hours ago, Tank50us said:

Honestly, with exception to the Mig19, ED has most of the documentation to make a decent 'replacement pack' for those that didn't get refunds, but these aircraft would, by necessity, have to be different versions of what RB made, JUST IN CASE someone in RBs legal department rolls up a newspaper.

• F-15E can be replaced, like for like, with a different version of the E... I wouldn't go with the EX, as it's too new and there isn't enough documents available yet... but a 1989 or 1990 E model? That'd work.
• The Mirage 2000C can be replaced by a more recent M2k, maybe the Mirage 2005?
• Harrier can be replaced by the last USMC version... which has the Hornets radar... which is already in game
• The Mig19... that's a tough one since getting Russian Documents is notoriously difficult. But there is a team working on the Mig17 right now.

The real catch is how much development time would be needed to get each one working.

A replacement Strike Eagle could probably be in our hands inside of 6 months with BASIC functionality (A/A weapons, Dumb and Laser-guided Bombs, working flight and damage models), but that's only because they have most of the work done for them with the F-15C (same engines, radar, etc).

But a new Harrier or Mirage? We'd need a couple years. Minimum.

 

This all being said... I just hope they can figure something out with RB, either to get them working again, or get the source codes. But until then... pray.

I think RB originally meant to do a British Harrier version (probably the Sea Harrier) but ran into a wall regarding documentation of some areas, hence the pivot to the AV-8B.