Dynamic Campaign Discussion Thread

[hreich]

I'm going to release something similar to snafu script, but it will create another mission file... I'm working on something like the "master" you are telling about since more than 2 years, with proper briefing format... useful for virtual squadron, ok, but still FAR away from falcon style dynamic campaign.

 

Chromium...do yo have an eta on release?

[chromium]

For the save function ... weeks at worst. I only need to understand how to add a new button to the F10 view.

 

For the comprehensive script... no. I don't have much time and I need to refactor the previous code to make it reliable. It's freaking impossible to estimate that, ad surel is going to be after DCSW2 will be out (MUCH after). That is the reason why I'm posting some of that project code as single mods, like DAWS Weather or DAWS Object persistence.

[Yuya6104]

Hope works out, This whole Sandbox thing getting old and the open world is far far much better exploring ARMA 3 did that well so did FSX other sims. DC will open many doors i tell you.

[vicx]

You think big Chromium. If you had let me know you were working on a ME mod a few months ago I probably could have helped you with it while the info was still fresh in my mind.

 

What I was working on was an ME mod that let you choose custom liveries for vehicles and ships. I got the ME to save the info into the miz but in game it seems only aircraft can have different skins.

 

If I was you I would put off any work until after the DCS 2.0 ME is released.

[chromium]

If I was you I would put off any work until after the DCS 2.0 ME is released.

 

I'm working on both system.

 

I may need help for another mod, If I don't solve an issue shorly I'll ask you for help :).

[C3PO]

A dynamic campaign is a fantastic feature for a sim and the one in Falcon 4.0: Allied Force, for example, worked very well. But that was actually a product which modelled a virtual universe into which a flight sim operated. I'm no expert on the detail but it would be hugely difficult to bolt on a dynamic campaign into an existing flight sim.

[PiedDroit]

A dynamic campaign is a fantastic feature for a sim and the one in Falcon 4.0: Allied Force, for example, worked very well. But that was actually a product which modelled a virtual universe into which a flight sim operated. I'm no expert on the detail but it would be hugely difficult to bolt on a dynamic campaign into an existing flight sim.

Why would that be difficult? A dynamic campaing is only a matter of keeping a persistent state to use it for the next mission - actually it was done as a simple mission file and .lua export/import by MBot for MiG-21BIS, it's the Guardians of the Caucasus campaign.

Once you have that you only need to write snippets of code that will alter this persistent state to your linking (be it from the result of a mission flown by the user or any other event you see fit).

Your statement seems familiar, did you just repeat something or are you genuinely believing what you wrote?

I'm just curious to know why you think it's hugely difficult, myabe there's something special I'm not aware of.

[WelshZeCorgi]

A dynamic campaign is something HUGE!

There isn't a mission or a series of mission. What you have is two opponents with military resources that somehow are aware of each other and are capable of analyze continually the situation and take decissions about how to use own resources to take over the opponent, issue missions according to these decissions (one of them will be for the player). Then you have the same problem to a lower level, where each military unit that is in a mission must analyze its situation and take decissions... and all in a way that seems as if real humans are behind of all this instead of dumb AI's doing stupid things.

 

Lets not lose our heads in the cloudless realms of possibility, as awesome as that sounds, it also sounds very expensive and time consuming to develop. We should ground our expectations and suggestions to more realistic footings. Falcon 4.0BMS has a wonderful dynamic campaign, so I've heard, I've never played it. Maybe aiming for something less but similar would be good.

[PiedDroit]

A dynamic campaign is something HUGE!

There isn't a mission or a series of mission. What you have is two opponents with military resources that somehow are aware of each other and are capable of analyze continually the situation and take decissions about how to use own resources to take over the opponent, issue missions according to these decissions (one of them will be for the player). Then you have the same problem to a lower level, where each military unit that is in a mission must analyze its situation and take decissions... and all in a way that seems as if real humans are behind of all this instead of dumb AI's doing stupid things.

 

Of course doing a smart AI is difficult.

I was only commenting the post saying (repeating?) that bolting a dynamic campaign on the sim was super difficult.

[C3PO]

A dynamic campaign is something HUGE!

There isn't a mission or a series of mission. What you have is two opponents with military resources that somehow are aware of each other and are capable of analyze continually the situation and take decissions about how to use own resources to take over the opponent, issue missions according to these decissions (one of them will be for the player). Then you have the same problem to a lower level, where each military unit that is in a mission must analyze its situation and take decissions... and all in a way that seems as if real humans are behind of all this instead of dumb AI's doing stupid things.

 

Certainly tougher than some think!

 

Would love to see it here though too.

[grunf]

I'm sure it's not easy to do dynamic campaign, but it's not impossible. As already mentioned, there is an user made one!

 

It's probably not easy to make realistic flight models as well, but that didn't stop the devs to make them. :D

 

For me, not having a dynamic campaign is the biggest flaw of DCS.

[PiedDroit]

For me, not having a dynamic campaign is the biggest flaw of DCS.

Couldn't agree more!

I hope that this is not too far in ED's roadmap - I mean, an official API for programmatic mission update :music_whistling:

[SDsc0rch]

Lets not lose our heads in the cloudless realms of possibility, as awesome as that sounds, it also sounds very expensive and time consuming to develop. We should ground our expectations and suggestions to more realistic footings. Falcon 4.0BMS has a wonderful dynamic campaign, so I've heard, I've never played it. Maybe aiming for something less but similar would be good.

 

yeah

 

part of the reason f4 was able to have a dynamic campaign over such a large territory was the use of "aggregation" ---- AI units consisting of a flight or a tank column etc beyond a certain distance (the "bubble") were modeled as a single unit, thus saving CPU cycles

 

DCS doesn't aggregate units, everything is explicitly modeled on an individual basis ---- you have a lot of units, you have a lot of CPU power required to support them

[C3PO]

Bubble technology - what also powers Elite Dangerous.

[S3NTRY11]

Suffice it to say, if it wasn't overly difficult, we'd already have it in DCS.

 

From what I can tell, as I have yet to play it, The MiG 21 campaign appears to be a pseudo-dynamic campaign as it stands, but damn if that's not a step in the right direction!

 

For me, agreeing with a previous post, it is THE biggest short-coming in DCS as it stands... And also why the various iterations of F4 have survived the test of time.

 

I know it is on EDs to-do list, but I have little reason to expect it inside the next 5 years.

Love to be proven wrong.

[QuiGon]

All the user made dynamic campaigns I've seen so far in DCS, be it SP (e.g. Guardians of the Caucasus) or MP (e.g. Blue Flag) are mainly dynamic air warfare campaigns. Ground warfare is pretty limited. But that was one of the things, that made the F4 campaign so great. It simulated the entire ground warfare with an actual front line and all the combat formations like brigades.

The trick that made it possible was the abstraction though bubbles like others already said. This kind of technology is not avalaible in DCS (so far) and because of this it's not possible to simulate an entire ground war in DCS like it is in F4 due to performance problems. The same thing applies to air warfare of course but because of the lower numbers of vehicles in the air compared to vehicles on the ground it's not as much a problem as it is on the ground.

Edited September 15, 2015 by QuiGon

[tn_prvteye]

I'm hoping that with 1.5 now out, it might inspire some budding mission design artist to start a Dynamic Campaign. :D (not me, I've tried coding...can't do it)

 

We've got all these great new Aircraft coming, but not much to do with them (if you're a SP guy).

[DrunkPilot]

Every aircraft in DCS has variants IRL. Doesn't this create a problem regarding the timeframe of a campaign? what if some key variants are missing?

[Kayos]

For me, not having a dynamic campaign is the biggest flaw of DCS.

 

It is the biggest flaw no doubt about it.

[chromium]

Every aircraft in DCS has variants IRL. Doesn't this create a problem regarding the timeframe of a campaign? what if some key variants are missing?

 

At the moment I think that is necessary to focus on the main issue: find a reliable way to build a vehicle ground & air campaign with at least basic air and ground war. After, we should look at logistic system, using or no the build in pieces. Done that, everything is probably going to move to properly integrate infantry & naval.

 

Least, once we have a working campaign, we should look at timelines and historical reconstruction. Consider that if an airplane is missing.. is missing. You can't do much about this :)

[okieordie78]

I think a simple dynamic campaign, like IL2, would work for me. I think I posted this before. A campaign that kept track of both sides vehicles, planes and supplies. A mission could be generated that would entail various goals. A strike, cas, escort or capture happening all at once. You choose the module you want to fly and it generates a mission for you based on that. Or perhaps you could control the type of mission generated.

 

Your side running low on supplies? Supply ships and cargo planes can fill that role. Protect your supply lines and assets and destroy the enemies.

 

Let's say each side gets x number of planes, tanks and fuel/supplies. You need to make it count. Lose a plane? It doesn't get replaced unless a resupply is met. Destroy some tanks? Fuel tanks? Ground vehicles? They are taken out of the overall count.

 

The campaign could be won once the enemy is completely out of equipment or a certain point or points is captured/destroyed or whatever you want it. I don't think a full dynamic campaign like Falcon4 is needed, something simple like IL2 would be good. Just with a few more things going on.

 

While on the DCS wishlist, here are some things I wish for outside the dynamic campaign:

 

-Make it easier to assign what assets belong to what country. (Aircraft mostly). (Assigning/de-assigning assets in game would be LOVELY) Also ability to create "countries" easier. Maybe I want to create some mercenaries, or private military companies? Just a thought.

 

-Change aircraft in SP. (Although "client" is a good work around)

 

-See and change your livery in the armament screen and "rearm" screen.

 

-Able to place "stationary" planes that you can walk to and fly, and they respawn after "x" time until assets have been depleted. (if desired)

 

-Ability to control the aircraft hangar doors (sometimes they don't open for me on MP...ok it did it once)

 

-Download liveries from servers/hosts/clients

 

-Have AI fly in closer formation.

 

edit: Also the ability for the game master to spawn units and tac commanders have "reserves" to pull from if units are destroyed. Plus the ability to make aircraft land/refuel/rearm. And ability to control ships.

 

That about does it, I think. But overall, I fell completely in love with DCS again once 1.5 beta came out.

Edited October 28, 2015 by okieordie78

[Apples]

At Some point to go with a campaign, it would be really nice to be able to create your own flight plan. Being able to hop in a server and choose exactly were i want each way point to be is a must in the future. As most of you know Falcon does this very well. As the dynamic changes so will a lot of targets.

[SDsc0rch]

...it would be really nice to be able to create your own flight plan...

 

YES!

[Pikey]

At Some point to go with a campaign, it would be really nice to be able to create your own flight plan. Being able to hop in a server and choose exactly were i want each way point to be is a must in the future. As most of you know Falcon does this very well. As the dynamic changes so will a lot of targets.

 

It's been done by [FSF]Ian http://jboecker.github.io/dcs-mission-planner/planner_client.html its just not that elegant and some other solutions for the persistent campaign have been coming out at the end of 1.2 that can't make use of it. Also depends on the aircraft, I've been handing out cordinates to A-10C or some don't support waypoints like Huey. It's a very niche use case. Object persistence is the first stepping stone, perhaps some unit waypoints captured and saved.

[Endy]

Well, since there was an option to vote for DC in the recent poll and it also won by a large majority of votes, perhaps we can count on this being worked on. Of course, people's opinion can be purely informational for ED, but the fact this option was included at all gives me hope that it's on their schedule anyway. Something like the Falcon BMS DC would be really great, and of course the ability to just jump on the server and create your own mission plan, waypoints etc.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Endy