DCS Combined Arms; will there be logistics?

[Cadmium77]

DCR Combined Arms is a fascinating concept on many levels. Currentlly I'm an ARMA2 kind of guy but back in the 80's I was deep into SPI wargames by Dunnigan.

 

This Combined ARms promises warfare on a grand scale but you can't really simulate that without logistics.

 

Will there be supply? And not just the concept of "in supply" with available road and rail and airbases but actual supply columns and vehicles and bases etc?

 

As for running this battlefield, will we be able to act as general staff in AWACs and command aircraft? That would be very cool..

Edited June 4, 2012 by Cadmium77

[HiJack]

Well ED says they wont start out at the top with all possible features so I guess we have to wait to see. It's a good start to make a realy dynamic environement for the aircrafts.

 

(HJ)

[Nate--IRL--]

FC3 is likely to feature a Resource manager - I've no ideas what this will bring to DCS:-World however.

 

Nate

[jp203000]

What is resource manager?

[Nate--IRL--]

Parts of it are already in DCS World. As to what it will become, I have no idea. Its too early to say.

 

Nate

[Daniel M]

Isn't there mention of a 'warehouse' somewhere on the forums? I could be completely off topic(was it a mod??) Though I thought it was a feature they were working on for World??

[andysim]

Isn't there mention of a 'warehouse' somewhere on the forums? I could be completely off topic(was it a mod??) Though I thought it was a feature they were working on for World??

 

 

yup DCS World has warehouses but they are not really functional just yet. Looks promising!!!

[NRG-Vampire]

yup DCS World has warehouses but they are not really functional just yet. Looks promising!!!

 

You must be wrong. it works pretty well. just dont forget to add FARP necessary vehicles and supply. and park closer with turned off engines

[Azazel]

Honestly I can't imagine a more boring way to spend time playing a warfare game. Seriously, logistics is what happens when you're not good at anything else, fail out of flight school or have no imagination. Why not make an expansion and call it DCS: Office Space.

 

I agree to a certain extent. I don't need my sim so in depth that I have to monitor engine wear and tear over flight hours (like FSX does). Some people want that, but to me if it keeps me from flying then I'd rather go without the feature. I do however like the idea of a limited amount of planes, vehicles, or weapons that a given side (blue or red) has available (like BMS does) because it keeps the server more dynamic/realistic.

[tank000]

My 2ct

 

If the intent is to create a realistic combat environment then why cut corners to cheapen the experience by removing a very important strategic component of combat.

 

A few choice quotes to remind you how important logistics is to the overall simulated combat experience from real world peoples.

 

"Clearly, logistics is the hard part of fighting a war."

- Lt. Gen. E. T. Cook, USMC, November 1990

 

"Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics."

- Gen. Robert H. Barrow, USMC (Commandant of the Marine Corps) noted in 1980

 

"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics…"

- Sun Tzu

 

"Forget logistics, you lose."

- Lt. Gen. Fredrick Franks, USA, 7th Corps Commander, Desert Storm

[cichlidfan]

Just because it is important to RL military operations doesn't mean it would be fun as a major aspect of a combat sim.

[tank000]

I understand Combined Arms is not going to be Steel Beasts, but some basic stuff should be added eventually.

 

Repair Trucks (for when your Tank is damaged) - No idea if this will be simulated

Ammo Supply - Your Tanks don't have Unlimited Ammo do they?

Fuel Truck - Those Tanks have really good mileage, NOT

combat engineers - hey that A-10 busted that nice Bridge we wanted to cross

 

If you have to drag these critical assets with you in order reach your objective then you'll be more careful about when and how you move across the battlefield, otherwise what fun will it to tank rush the enemy RTS style. Likewise you can cripple the opposing team by limiting his's/her's reach by destroying their equipment.

 

I do hope we're able to track assets/killed supply parts and be able export it to a spreadsheet so that we can have a multi-zone (human-controlled) champagne.

[Pikey]

To some extent sandbox and logistics don't mix. A sandbox simulator will be bound by it's confines. By bringing in logistics, wear and tear and events that take place outside the sandbox you are creating a persistent world or RPG. A simulator could only simulate events that happen in that time and space and anything else is getting out of depth.

[Cadmium77]

My 2ct

 

If the intent is to create a realistic combat environment then why cut corners to cheapen the experience by removing a very important strategic component of combat.

 

A few choice quotes to remind you how important logistics is to the overall simulated combat experience from real world peoples.

 

"Clearly, logistics is the hard part of fighting a war."

- Lt. Gen. E. T. Cook, USMC, November 1990

 

"Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics."

- Gen. Robert H. Barrow, USMC (Commandant of the Marine Corps) noted in 1980

 

"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics…"

- Sun Tzu

 

"Forget logistics, you lose."

- Lt. Gen. Fredrick Franks, USA, 7th Corps Commander, Desert Storm

 

 

thank you

 

there's a reason why Ulysses S Grant and Dwight D Eisenhower were made supreme commanders in time of war; both were the greatest logistic thinkers of their time.

 

and it's not necessarily boring. It shapes how you deploy your attack and defense forces. Imagine your air raids being targeted at supply columns, at freight train lines and they're heavily protected by SAMS.

 

You might not like dealing with jet engine wear but you don't want the some arcadey air war equivalent of run and gun either.

Edited June 9, 2012 by Cadmium77

[James McKenzie-Smith]

For SP players like me, somewhat simplified logistics would be an interesting wrinkle, as it would allow for extended operations and greater planning options. Boredom would not be such a factor due to in-game time acceleration.

 

For MP players, things are a little more complex. Large battlespaces are not such a problem for aircrew flying at hundreds of knots in more or less straight lines, but for land units moving tactically, there might be a lot of relative down time as it is without logistics, if missions are not well designed. With even simplified logistics, an offensive that is stalled for even half an hour game time might well be a crashing bore for people playing with ground units.

[Bushmanni]

Rearm and refuel trucks for ground units would be good and some triggers to influence the warehouse system, ie. add/remove munitions or aircraft to certain base or warehouse. But making the players to manage logistics chains is just nuts as it would take lot of effort to develop such system that few would enjoy playing. But as long as the mission duration is under 6h there's really no point in big picture logistics simulation anyway. Only when we have missions lasting days the logistics start to play a big part and as such logistics simulation is best left for turn based proper strategy games.

[Cadmium77]

Rearm and refuel trucks for ground units would be good and some triggers to influence the warehouse system, ie. add/remove munitions or aircraft to certain base or warehouse. But making the players to manage logistics chains is just nuts as it would take lot of effort to develop such system that few would enjoy playing. But as long as the mission duration is under 6h there's really no point in big picture logistics simulation anyway. Only when we have missions lasting days the logistics start to play a big part and as such logistics simulation is best left for turn based proper strategy games.

 

 

Well this raises the entire question of the time frame of this game. Just how big will it be in the end?

[sobek]

Why does it need to have a timeframe?

[chromium]

If we will be able to save a mission state, at least for the grounded part (in future, other posts cover this), that will overcome the time-limit.

[Wolfie]

thank you

 

there's a reason why Ulysses S Grant and Dwight D Eisenhower were made supreme commanders in time of war; both were the greatest logistic thinkers of their time.

 

and it's not necessarily boring. It shapes how you deploy your attack and defense forces. Imagine your air raids being targeted at supply columns, at freight train lines and they're heavily protected by SAMS.

 

You might not like dealing with jet engine wear but you don't want the some arcadey air war equivalent of run and gun either.

 

This is where the "Generals" and "High Command" will come in. Kind of a third type of player compared to FPS and Flight Simmer. They can plan and direct the battle. There's a lot of Risk, Chess, and Fortress America players out there, ya know. Some of them would love to direct a large battle and its logistics.

 

Man, this sim is starting to really take off!

[Wolfie]

Why does it need to have a timeframe?

 

I think he means some of the harder things, like, "how long does it take to repair a tank"? And I'm trying to think back to F4's DC, how much time passes between missions, etc? If its real time, then tank's shouldn't be repaired, because their is no time. If long time periods pass between missions, then things might be able to be repaired. We'd have to leave it up to the computer to decide what happens repair, logistics, and movement wise then, at say 30 minutes / sec or so? Complex.

[Wolfie]

A helicopter does not want to fly.

 

TRUTH! :D

[chromium]

TRUTH! :D

 

Not mine, it is by Harry Reasoner :)

[chief]

There are so many options you can include with logistics. Personally, I like the As real as you can make it idea. Tanks destroyed? No repair is going to help. As well if you have to eject, then you can not rejoin until a jolly green picks you up and returns you to base. Might be a while before a jolly green can make it while being under fire. Might have to send CAS to help him. I know most ppl would be whining and saying "but I dont want to have to wait 20 minutes to play again". Well thats what realism is about. So dont get shot down! It would create a whole new dimension of stategy knowing you can't just rejoin at will. I think it would make a much better player out of you too. Not like those FPS games where you can just run in guns blazing knowing tht if you get killed you can just rejoin. No fun in the game if there is no goal/strategy. Its like sports. The game is so much better if you are betting on who is winning. Of course, to please the ppl that don't care for realism, make all this an OPTION.

[chromium]

If you get shoot down, at best you will have to go to do some medical check... so... no other takeoff is a simplier and already possible solution ;)