Some details of FC3 AFM Missile Improvements

[Brisse]

The ER is also around twice as heavy as AMRAAM so it's going to need much more propellant to achieve the same deltaV.

[GGTharos]

Air resistance at high altitude is less, but the AMRAAM lofts to even thinner air. Again, hard to tell.

 

Think about it this way, it's not like some guy blasting faster by your car on the autobahn, more like walking faster past you.

 

Other factors are guidance - AMRAAM has much more advanced trajectory shaping and guidance control, so it can reduce speed lost in tiny flight maneuvers. R-27 flies a straight line, so it's always flying at increasing AoA and thus increasing drag.

 

I say 'it's hard', because it's actually hard to compare due to so many factors being present, and they may or may not matter. In theory R-27 could be faster until a little after the propellant burns out, but that's running in a straight line and after that it loses speed faster.

 

There's a 'sweet spot' when it comes to missile speed. More is almost always better, until drag (drag force increases as speed increases) eats away your gains.

 

We don't know drag for these missiles.

 

There's a timing chart for R-27ER, so at some point we may be able to do an apples-to-apples comparison, but we can't yet.

 

I see, i thought that ER-27 was faster.Like You are saying probably hard to really tell.

Maybe it could be faster at higher altitude?

[GGTharos]

The R-27ER has the highest propellant fraction of all the player used missiles.

 

The ER is also around twice as heavy as AMRAAM so it's going to need much more propellant to achieve the same deltaV.

[Teknetinium]

Air resistance at high altitude is less, but the AMRAAM lofts to even thinner air. Again, hard to tell.

 

Think about it this way, it's not like some guy blasting faster by your car on the autobahn, more like walking faster past you.

 

Other factors are guidance - AMRAAM has much more advanced trajectory shaping and guidance control, so it can reduce speed lost in tiny flight maneuvers. R-27 flies a straight line, so it's always flying at increasing AoA and thus increasing drag.

 

I say 'it's hard', because it's actually hard to compare due to so many factors being present, and they may or may not matter. In theory R-27 could be faster until a little after the propellant burns out, but that's running in a straight line and after that it loses speed faster.

 

There's a 'sweet spot' when it comes to missile speed. More is almost always better, until drag (drag force increases as speed increases) eats away your gains.

 

We don't know drag for these missiles.

 

There's a timing chart for R-27ER, so at some point we may be able to do an apples-to-apples comparison, but we can't yet.

 

Fair enough then, that Aim-120C and ER-27 reach unmunovuring target at the same time from 25 km, where the missile take same trajectory. I guess there are some disputes on the ranges in FC3 1.2.5 update 3?

Edited August 24, 2013 by Teknetinium

[GGTharos]

I wouldn't call them disputes, it's more about understanding how missile work. As you know, 'range' is a complex subject which includes way more factors than just missile peak speed and drag - it goes into trajectory shaping, specific guidance capabilities, missile battery time, potentially hydraulic working time (AIM-7 is an example), minimum terminal speed, etc.

 

No one know what 'maximum range' means, for example.

 

Fair enough that Aim-120C and ER-27 reach unmunovuring target at the same time from 25 km, where the missile take same trajectory. I guess there are some disputes on the ranges in FC3 1.2.5 update 3?

[westr]

Can anybody just confirm that the missile accuracy problem when in bvr is still ongoing with FC3 and has not been fixed with 1.2.5 because I still can't hit targets at anything above 10kms I'm sure I'm doing nothing wrong and had no such problems in FC2? Thanks in advance

[Pilotasso]

They said they are looking into it but other things have priority (beyond the last few updates that tweaked chaff).

[westr]

They said they are looking into it but other things have priority (beyond the last few updates that tweaked chaff).

 

Ok thanks I've been wondering if its a problem with my dcs world

[Pilotasso]

It seems they will tweak the propellant and mass for some missiles in 1.26 patch too.

[*Rage*]

It seems they will tweak the propellant and mass for some missiles in 1.26 patch too.

 

I see a bigger problem with ER/R tracking to be honest.

[Mojeaux]

RFI.."I'm not trying to start a fight" But has there been any progress (last post here was 08-3--2013!) in the missile / Radar issues? I've been searching for more info on this and when I do...I just get flamed by say..."Viper" http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=123436 for this or that..what ever I just want some info towards the missile / radar issues for the sim I really like to fly.. But sitckin your head in the sand and not talking about it kinda defeats the pourpose of a forum right?, Duct tape and bailing wire is not how this mechanic fixes things nor by turning a blind eye!! simply put guys whats up with the missiles..and radar?

Edited April 26, 2014 by Mojeaux

[159th_Viper]

RFI.....But has there been any progress (last post here was 08-3--2013!) in the missile / Radar issues?

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=117731

 

Corrected EOS scan volume, removed gyro-stabilization, and added EOS manual elevation scan control for the Su-27 and Su-33. The EOS on the MiG-29 that does not include an elevation adjustment function. EOS detection ranges are being tuned.

 

For Russian aircraft TWS, a 3 seconds delay has been added before autolock to allow the pilot time to move the TDC off the target before autolock occurs. In such a case, the autolock feature is disabled until mode reset or break lock function (backspace) is activated.

 

F-15C Track While Scan (TWS) mode will now center elevation scan on the PDT.

 

 

AIM-7M missile. Corrected motor data: thrust, time and fuel flow.

 

MiG-29: EOS has had its detection range reduced to realistic performance levels.

 

Reworked chaff and flare rejecting logic for AA and SAM missiles.

 

IR missiles. The lock range increased.

 

Progress.

[Angel101]

missile / radar issues... which issues exactly are you talking about?

[TAW_Blaze]

Reworked chaff and flare rejecting logic for AA and SAM missiles.

 

I've asked multiple people about this, no answer.. what does this mean?

[Zabuzard]

It means the logic how the AA and SAM missiles react to chaffs and flares. Simply how they decide who is a chaff/flare and who a aircraft.

They "reject" the chaffs/flares to follow the aircraft instead of the countermeasurements.

[TAW_Blaze]

Cpt obvious, I realized that too. I'm wondering what it ACTUALLY means.

[159th_Viper]

Cpt obvious' date=' I realized that too. I'm wondering what it ACTUALLY means.[/quote']

 

It means that missiles were spoofed too easily in the past. Not so now.

[*Rage*]

IR missiles are incredibly easy to spoof now.

[159th_Viper]

IR missiles are incredibly easy to spoof now.

 

Which ones in particular? Or all of them? I'll have a looksee.

[GGTharos]

As they should be.

 

IR missiles are incredibly easy to spoof now.

[GGTharos]

As they should be.

 

IR missiles are incredibly easy to spoof now.

[GGTharos]

Generally speaking they should be easy to spoof. It just needs to be reasonable - not too easy in some cases, definitely not impossible in harder cases, and definitely very easy in others.

 

The sim might not be able to cover everything though.

 

Want a missile that flares can't spoof? Fly something that carries AIM-9X, MICA-IR, ASRAAM, IRIS-T or Python 5 ;)

[GGTharos]

They should be quite spoofable, the question is whether they are excessively spoofable (ie. one flare and they run off. That is correct in some, but not all cases. On the other hand, put out enough flares - and it'll be quite a bit less than your stores - and the spoof is guaranteed)

Edited April 26, 2014 by GGTharos

[Bucic]

Doy you guys know of any videos showcasing some of the changes? Or some descriptions supplementing what Wags has posted in the OP. I got out of touch...

[159th_Viper]

Doy you guys know of any videos showcasing some of the changes? Or some descriptions supplementing what Wags has posted in the OP. I got out of touch...

 

You need to be very specific with your questions if it's reasonable answers you're after :)