Some details of FC3 AFM Missile Improvements

[wilky510]

It does have more range. THat's all I'll say.

As for the AIM-7, it has a 12-15 second boost/sustain motor that is significantly larger than that of the 120.

Okay, figured that. Thanks for the replies GG!

[Frostie]

Almost everyone in red will take the maximum ammount they can carry: 2, and never take the 6 ER loadout, and for good reason. ;)

Yep, that's because most Russian flyers are sneaky bastages.;)

But some guys I fly with and myself, if we fly to try and dominate the skies we sometimes take 6 ER's.

[Exorcet]

But how do you see it if its launched on EOS and no clue when and where its comming from?? :D

 

The range comparisson is somewhat moot, because it is almost always employed at low altitudes VS high altitude F-15's. Its not that hard to shoot it against unsuspecting F-15's, and thats where it is used not head to head. Most popular weapon on russian side. Almost everyone in red will take the maximum ammount they can carry: 2, and never take the 6 ER loadout, and for good reason. ;)

 

I have to go with Frostie on the ET's. You don't even really need to see them as long as you have enough flares and roughly know when the Flanker/Fulcrum will get LA. I pretty much dump flares automatically after closing to a certain range and sometimes I see the smoke trails after they've stopped chasing me.

 

Now if you can manage to completely sneak up on someone, ET's are crazy deadly combined with EOS.

 

Thought the C-5 had more range than the AIM-120B. In the game they're about the same from what i've saw though.

 

The encyclopedia in the game gives them the same range too; 55km.

 

I also noticed something. I fired an AIM-120B and an AIM-7M at the same speed + height and the AIM-7M won (the AIM-120 went first too, then i did the AIM-7!). Was surprised about that that.

Well, if you fired the 120 first, of course it will lose, the distance your plane travels is added to the distance the second missile flies. A better test would be to fire 120B on a target flying straight and level at a know range, and then restarting the mission and using the AIM-7.

[monotwix]

Once I asked a question about the semi active missiles being guided from external source and I forgot the answer to that. Maybe it’s best if I don’t know, I don’t know.:doh:

[cool_t]

@ Frostie ;)

 

1. Were on a network of electrical signals from many miles away, so theres a delay time in real time "On Line" in combat...

 

2. Bring up the "Old" and "New" Tac-View tracks of me engaging 3-4 Su-27 at a time...

 

3. On your server I get a C++ script thing when I just get ready to throw my Ninja stars from my magical moves and the game crashes ... 3 out of 5 flights ... I cant remember but do I need to fix or down load a "Mod" ... its been 2 years since Ive been in the pit...

 

4. Shot a SU-27 down today and they exited the mission and I didnt get the Kill... they were very skilled but as usual crossing swords with cool_t is like bringing ones "Wife, Girl" to the strip club that she doesnt know you go to 2wice a week... Information overload and very dangerous :)

 

5. S!!! :joystick:

[monotwix]

Fancy strike eagle?

[RIPTIDE]

Old Tacviews. Aye.... I've got loads of old Tacviews showing dot spotters bracketing people in miles away with ET's, 120's etc.

[Pilotasso]

That needs fixing....bad

[diveplane]

Have you tried using the resource window in DCS World yet? you can customise your payload prior to engine startup, so no need for those archaic loadout menus anymore :)

 

yes this is fantastic having this built in.

[GGTharos]

Would the accuracy of missiles also been modeled in FC3?

I have been watch some documentary videos on fighters' missile fights. (correct me if I am wrong) I understood missiles has a accuracy issue.

 

Very old missiles had all sorts of problems that new generations of missiles do not. DCS does not model bad hardware etc. Missiles miss because they are launched out of parameters or because they are otherwise evaded.

 

http://www.pmulcahy.com/aams/aams_2.htm

It appears to be useful. Have a look.

It will be great it missile accuracy is modeled in FC3~! :thumbup:

 

These are just stats for a tabletop/RPG.

[GGTharos]

Oh, sorry, I may have mislead you. I didn't mean the unreliability of the missile. I just meant the accuracy. Are you sure there are any accuracy issue? I am sure if we shoot missiles at a target, they wouldn't all get 10 points. Otherwise they wouldn't need proximity charges anymore.

 

Which missiles wouldn't get 10 points? AMRAAMs score direct hits on cruise missiles that are maybe 3x the width of an AMRAAM, in severe look-down conditions.

Old AIM-7's may have problems with that, but I suppose you could lump this potential technology/seeker issue into 'missile accuracy'.

Proximity fuzes are needed because maneuvering targets might prevent a direct hit from a missile (the missile cannot always keep up with the maneuver and decoy attempts), but modern missiles are hit-to-kill if you don't do anything to evade them. Older missiles, and certain (especially older) SAMs may indeed not be hit-to-kill vehicles.

 

I remember a long time ago you told me that ED is not considering the fairness between the Red faction and the blue faction. So after I read those things about missile accuracy, it got me thinking. If ED introduce some older missiles into the game like AIM-120A, we might get fair. Because players can sort things out by load an older missile on a superior plane. What do you think? Do you think they may consider it? They have already made AIM-9P into the game.

Why would it be fair? A 120A/B (Or an R-77) will always be better than an AIM-7 or R-27. Do you think it would be 'less accurate'? Why? Can you even compare 'missile accuracy' between an R-27, Aim-7, Aim-9P/J/L/M and AIM-120A/B/C/D?

 

And why would anyone care to load AIM-7 if they can load AIM-120C? DACT isn't about fairness, it's about tactics; if your aircraft is inferior at something compared to the other side's plane(s), you try to mitigate with tactics and teamwork. If you want fair, have everyone fly the exact same plane with the exact same payload.

[Krebs20]

The AIM 7 has a place in MP. I find it works best when the AIM 9 is out of just range. It's fast. Its brutal at close range. I can think of plenty of situations where I would carry an AIM 7 over a 120.

[elchacal]

Excellent! :thumbup:

[GGTharos]

I'd use the 120 there anyway. I'm reasonably certain that it is, in fact, faster than the 7. Maybe not so in FC2, but in case, I wouldn't expect the 7 to work quite as well at such short range depending on release parameters.

 

The AIM 7 has a place in MP. I find it works best when the AIM 9 is out of just range. It's fast. Its brutal at close range. I can think of plenty of situations where I would carry an AIM 7 over a 120.

[aaron886]

Nice post, PLAAF. :) I'm not particularly qualified anymore on the air to air end of things, so you've laid the scenario out quite well for people like me.

 

That said, I think both sides should be equipped with the most recent weapons that can be accurately simulated.

[GGTharos]

lol, I think you forgot our conversation, mate. It was a long ago anyway.

 

Yeah if it was long ago I forgot it for sure.

 

Then things can be more fair for a fully loaded Su against a F-15 armed with 2 sidewinder, 2~4 AIM-120A and 4~2 AIM-7 IMHO. Of course I know that you seems know more things in missile than me, so correct me if I am wrong, but if you agree, please support me the idea of introducing AIM-120A into the game. :thumbup:

 

You do realize that other than range, in game the AIM-120C is actually a worse missile than the real AIM-120A, right?

 

Also, another point: I think you will find that with the new flight dynamics, the AIM-7 is reasonably competitive with the R-27E ... although as you mentioned, the number of missiles and the option for a longer ranged heater gives certain advantages to the Su-27, while the F-15C lacks those radar advantages that it should have.

 

Basically, I'll try to say again: You'll probably have a very hard time balancing F-15 vs Su-27 in FC, not only because they CAN be hard to balance, but also because of player resistance to gimped payloads.

 

Of course, that isn't to say that you can't run '80's scenarios etc, the 51st seems to do this quite successfully.

 

Personally, I wouldn't worry about it too too much ... the F-15C and all AIM-120s (and the 77) lack certain capability that would make them truly, painfully over-bearing and make you scream for a Su-30MKI/27SM3/35 or something like that. FC is not perfectly balanced, but it is reasonably balanced, especially if you execute team tactics.

[GGTharos]

It is really desirable to get a 27SM in, but unfortunately there's about as much documentation to be found about it as there is about F-22's :/

 

Nice post, PLAAF. :) I'm not particularly qualified anymore on the air to air end of things, so you've laid the scenario out quite well for people like me.

 

That said, I think both sides should be equipped with the most recent weapons that can be accurately simulated.

[Cali]

The AIM 7 has a place in MP. I find it works best when the AIM 9 is out of just range. It's fast. Its brutal at close range. I can think of plenty of situations where I would carry an AIM 7 over a 120.

 

I like using AIM-7's when a friendly is near a bandit, wouldn't want my 120 going after a buddy. I also like using the 7's if a guy is up high. I've gotten a few 15 pilots like that. Another thing you can do is fire a 7 to get them to go defensive while they are up high and fire a 120 a few seconds later to really mess their day up. They won't know the 120 is inbound until.......BOOM.

[Mar]

I have a few questions:

 

If you STT lock a bandit and then send a 120 his way, would there still be risk of the 120 going after the wrong plane?

 

If no, would you be able to launch in track while scan and then switch to STT before the slammer goes active and get the same result?

 

Is it to be my understanding that once a 120 goes active there is no way to change its target?

 

And finally, how to fly?:smartass::pilotfly:

[GGTharos]

Generally what mitigates the AIM-120 going after the wrong target (in real life) are the MCU's. If the target trackfile isn't correct, or if you drop the track while the missile is on the way, that's when you give up deconfliction and things become dangerous in terms of either hitting friendlies or two missiles going after the same target and leaving one untargeted, etc.

[104th_Crunch]

I have a few questions:

 

If you STT lock a bandit and then send a 120 his way, would there still be risk of the 120 going after the wrong plane?

 

If no, would you be able to launch in track while scan and then switch to STT before the slammer goes active and get the same result?

 

Is it to be my understanding that once a 120 goes active there is no way to change its target?

 

And finally, how to fly?:smartass::pilotfly:

 

In FC2, if you have STT, then the 120 track the STT target all the way. Place a couple of aircraft in the mission editor, one ahead of the other by a few miles. Put yourself behind both, lock the lead target, fire a 120. The trailer never gets hit, unlees he is directly in the missle flight path.

[combatace]

That explains this:

 

 

 

Never knew R-27s had thrust vectoring ;)

[bird-1]

For example if we put Su-27 VS F-15C, if Su-27 is fully loaded, and F-15 load with 120B or 120C, it would put Su-27 in a disadvantage since Su doesn't even have active radar guided missile. But if F-15 only load with AIM-7, it will put F-15 in a disadvantage, because R-27Es have way better range, plus ER launch with ET can make things even more dangerous for the F-15. But if AIM-120A is introduced. Then things can be more fair for a fully loaded Su against a F-15 armed with 2 sidewinder, 2~4 AIM-120A and 4~2 AIM-7 IMHO.

 

Missile is not everything, teamwork is more important.

[karambiatos]

It is really desirable to get a 27SM in, but unfortunately there's about as much documentation to be found about it as there is about F-22's :/

well we can still dream that one day therell be a su27sm or even a su35

[Mar]

Generally what mitigates the AIM-120 going after the wrong target (in real life) are the MCU's. If the target trackfile isn't correct, or if you drop the track while the missile is on the way, that's when you give up deconfliction and things become dangerous in terms of either hitting friendlies or two missiles going after the same target and leaving one untargeted, etc.

 

In FC2, if you have STT, then the 120 track the STT target all the way. Place a couple of aircraft in the mission editor, one ahead of the other by a few miles. Put yourself behind both, lock the lead target, fire a 120. The trailer never gets hit, unlees he is directly in the missle flight path.

 

Cool! Thanks for the info!