How to overcome guilt in military simulation

[swift]

Hello folks

 

For less than a year I am experiencing a strong feeling, that is preventing me from fully enjoying military simulators (DCS, F4, ArmA, etc). The feeling I'm experiencing lately, that is causing me a certain feeling of sadness and emptyness, arises in that, ultimately, I'm pretending to kill people.

 

When I see an armored vehicle on fire, I can not stop thinking about the crew inside.

When I see the smoke coming out of the buildings I imagine the devastating effect and the huge number of people killed if it were real.

When I see an airframe blown out of the sky I think about those pilots, that loved to fly but were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

I stopped playing ArmA and FPS because I do not enjoy running around with a gun pretending to kill humans, anymore. I know that some of you will find this message funny or at least unusual in a military theme forum. Honestly, I do not quite understand why these images come to my mind when generally I really enjoy simulators.

 

I wonder if any of you feel something similar, or what techniques you use to desensitize about death in your simulation experience. Or even, how professional soldiers overcome guilt when they know they have killed people?

 

Thanks.

[BIGNEWY]

[edited] Thanks Sobek :)

 

Relax its a simulator not RL

 

On a serious note, if you have a trauma / PTSD issue in real life you should seek medical help

Edited January 11, 2013 by BIGNEWY

[manfrez01]

[edited] Thanks but no thanks sobek:smartass:

 

let that feeling rookie compare reality (which is very hard to understand) with a simulation, are two different things, I suggest you read "Culture and Simulation" Jean Baudrillard meantime.

 

regards.-

 

Recent mind and discovered that the only place where I can entertain myself and my experience is original is always a flight simulator, and unfortunately shelved because the ARMA simulation with always the same and monotonous situation.

PS: If anyone is interested I have ARMA and ARMA2 by steam for sale by the way.

Edited January 11, 2013 by manfrez01

[Eight Ball]

Tell yourself it was you or them :)

 

On a serious note I've never experienced anything like that and I'm surprised someone can suddenly develop these kind of thoughts after many years of simming.

 

What I'm looking for when I'm playing simulation isn't to kill anyone but to evolve in a believable virtual world where I can apply real life thought process.

Actually what I love is everything before and after the "kill", the preparation, the tactics, the stress.

That's why I'm not enjoying arcade games like Call Of Duty or Ace Combat, those games are centered around "killing" with little to no effort. Those game glorify that.

 

In a sim like DCS or ArmA killing represent what ? 5% of the lenght of a mission ? I've played outstanding mission in both games without killing anyone, doing transport role with a chopper in ArmA or acting as a A-FAC in DCS.

I personnally feel worst when I let my girfriend Sims (from The Sim) die of starvation than when I drop a CBU on a village :P

 

If this problem keeps growing I would recommend talking to someone more "competent".

There's no point playing games if you don't enjoy them anymore

Edited January 11, 2013 by sobek

[MasterZelgadis]

I don't kill humans..I change the color of pixels on a screen. Period.

[danilop]

Hello folks

 

For less than a year I am experiencing a strong feeling, that is preventing me from fully enjoying military simulators (DCS, F4, ArmA, etc). The feeling I'm experiencing lately, that is causing me a certain feeling of sadness and emptyness, arises in that, ultimately, I'm pretending to kill people.

 

When I see an armored vehicle on fire, I can not stop thinking about the crew inside.

When I see the smoke coming out of the buildings I imagine the devastating effect and the huge number of people killed if it were real.

When I see an airframe blown out of the sky I think about those pilots, that loved to fly but were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

I stopped playing ArmA and FPS because I do not enjoy running around with a gun pretending to kill humans, anymore. I know that some of you will find this message funny or at least unusual in a military theme forum. Honestly, I do not quite understand why these images come to my mind when generally I really enjoy simulators.

 

I wonder if any of you feel something similar, or what techniques you use to desensitize about death in your simulation experience. Or even, how professional soldiers overcome guilt when they know they have killed people?

 

Thanks.

 

You are growing up ... :D

 

Nothing wrong with simulating battle and killing, humans used to do that since dawn of mankind.

It's called play, and kids could not mature and grow up physically and psychologically without it.

 

Now, we as humans are in essence very violent creatures, top predators if you wish, with some moral norms which separate us from animals, and as such we conquered the Earth and all other life on it - we hunt, we fight, we kill. Only lately, when we were detached from our natural surroundings and put in the huge cities we started to behave differently. Moral standards changed. Problem is that our brains didn't - we need much more time to adapt to this relatively new, non-violent environment in which most of developed World exist nowadays.

 

So yes, just ignore that politically/morally correct urge you get when playing violent computer games :lol:

Edited January 11, 2013 by danilop

[sobek]

Guys, please leave the references to drugs out of this discussion. This forum is rated for everyone, that includes minors, please keep that in mind when you post. Thanks.

[swift]

Thanks for the attention guys, appreciate.

 

I don't have any trauma with this new feeling or have any problem with that, well sometimes I fell a bit bored but that's all. It's about having fun after all. Getting pleasure for what you do. Feeling that sentiment of accomplishment that makes you feel right, overcome challenges...

 

Of course, Call of Duty and those kind of games that death is glorified and the fun is focused exclusively on killing, are out of my radar.

 

You are growing up ...

 

Nothing wrong with simulating battle and killing, humans used to do that since dawn of mankind.

It's called play, and kids could not mature and grow up physically and psychologically without it.

 

Now, we as humans are in essence very violent creatures, top predators if you wish, with some moral norms which separate us from animals, and as such we conquered the Earth and all other life on it - we hunt, we fight, we kill. Only lately, when we were detached from our natural surroundings and put in the huge cities we started to behave differently. Moral standards changed. Problem is that our brains didn't - we need much more time to adapt to this relatively new, non-violent environment in which most of developed World exist nowadays.

 

So yes, just ignore that politically/morally correct feeling you get when playing violent computer games

 

 

Absolutely agree danilop, excellent reasoning. We're descendants of the most violent tribe back in the days.

 

Ok, I know I'm like asking for a meat recipe on a veggie forum. Sorry if this annoys some of you. I just wanted to know if anyone feels the same.

[Pyroflash]

Thanks for the attention guys, appreciate.

 

I don't have any trauma with this new feeling or have any problem with that, well sometimes I fell a bit bored but that's all. It's about having fun after all. Getting pleasure for what you do. Feeling that sentiment of accomplishment that makes you feel right, overcome challenges...

 

Of course, Call of Duty and those kind of games that death is glorified and the fun is focused exclusively on killing, are out of my radar.

 

 

 

 

Absolutely agree danilop, excellent reasoning. We're descendants of the most violent tribe back in the days.

 

Ok, I know I'm like asking for a meat recipe on a veggie forum. Sorry if this annoys some of you. I just wanted to know if anyone feels the same.

 

Naaa, just try to realize that real pilots use simulators to train too, and then they go out and kill people. There might be a progression, but they are two completely distinct ideas. However if the idea of a simulator is to simulate reality, and not a simulation, then I'd say that effectively, if you are having those feelings, then the simulator in question is probably doing its job right.

[Rotorhead]

No need to apologize Swift, I think nobody is annoyed by your opinions here. :)

 

I am a soft-hearted person too, I hate war and killing and I wouldn't even hurt a fly. If I ever had to kill a human, even in a self-defense, I'm sure I would be sorry for it for the rest of my life.

 

The same way I hate games, movies or books which contains violence just for violence's sake, to attract some shallow-minded audience.

 

 

However, I've never had this feeling when playing sims or "serious" games like ArmA. These are my ways to find out "how it feels to be a soldier, a pilot, whatever". I like military jets because i love how powerful and nimble they are, and how damn cool they look, not because they are intended for killing. (P.S. And I love choppers not less than jets!)

 

Actually, I spend most of the time in-sim just flying around, training airshow maneuvers, having fun. I blow up some stuff now and then, but I never feel guilty about it. I know it's not for real, and that's good enough for me.

 

Sims are made for people to enjoy them, not to teach them how to kill. Archery or javelin throwing are olympic sports, even if they were originally meant to kill people (or at least animals) too. But, as long as they are not used for this purpose anymore, they are alright for me. If all wars were simulated only, this would be a very happy planet.

 

Last thing I'll add, as long as you can tell between right and wrong in real life, I think that sims cannot do any harm to you.

[159th_Viper]

...The feeling I'm experiencing lately, that is causing me a certain feeling of sadness and emptyness, arises in that, ultimately, I'm pretending to kill people....

 

Whilst I sympathize, for me that feeling tends to evaporate when I see him spawn a couple of seconds after I 'killed' him. Evaporates even quicker when the person I just 'killed' knifes me from behind a couple of minutes after I 'killed' him. It's all make-believe, nothing more than the simulated exercises run in the military to the good 'ol 'Cowboys and Indians' I used to play when I was a wee one, shooting each other with cap guns and bows and arrows.....Same game, different canvas.

[topol-m]

I've never expected that someone might feel like you do when playing sims or FPS games, swift. I'm on the other extreme, I feel great. It is a great feeling of satisfaction when you see your missile blow the enemy fighter to bits, and sometimes I've even tried to gun down the pilot while he's flying down with his parachute after a successful ejection. In my mind I'm doing that not because of some sadistic pleasure but because that's the enemy, you'd want to inflict as much damages to the enemy as you can. Destroying a multi-million jet fighter is a win in itself, the pilots though are an asset not less valuable, denying the enemy that asset is another way to cause damages.

There is no reason to feel guilty when killing people with an assault rifle or bombing them or whatever in a game. Certainly reality is much different than virtual reality even though sometimes it might not seem like that, like for instance sitting in your apache miles away looking at an MFCD, firing a missile with a push of a button. But it must be different, pilots who experienced that should elaborate more.

In the virtual reality, since your life is not at stake, it's all about competition. Be it a driving game, a shooter, a sim or a strategy, it's all about who gets there first, who kills the most, who captures the enemy base, who returns to base after dropping his bombs... And since it is a competition I don't see why someone should feel guilty about anything, it's win or lose that's it. So it's expected to feel joy and satisfaction and relief after you've won not to feel bad about it.

[Headspace]

When I see an armored vehicle on fire, I can not stop thinking about the crew inside.

Replace the image of the crew in your mind with the image of delicious cooking bacon.

 

Or if you don't eat bacon, the meat of your choice.

 

On a more serious note, I agree that the concept can be disturbing, but personally, my subconscious sees a huge difference...it's difficult to watch real-life footage of the same thing happening because you know that there are people inside. But from having spent so much time inside the "guts" of games, behind the fourth wall...I know the wall is there, and that it isn't real.

 

Maybe get into developing or modding?

Edited January 11, 2013 by Headspace

[sobek]

Maybe get into developing or modding?

 

Outstanding advice. :)

[Stickers]

Swift,

 

I have struggled with the same war inside my head. I was in the Air Force for six years as a C-17 Crew Chief and feel pretty jaded about my participation in OEF and OIF. Did I ever pull a trigger? Nope. Did I ever participate in ensuring the people and weapons used in organized killing were delivered down range? Yes.

 

Today I am a few terms away from getting a BA in International Studies. I have learned a tremendous amount about the developing world, global politics, and war.

 

When it comes to games, I can't help but think about what what a real GAU round does to someone who doesn't have running water or cable TV. I can't help but think about what CoD does to the mind of a young kid contemplating joining the military. But I still play.

 

Why? Well, when it comes to CoD, I am addicted to the mechanics of the game. It's a romance of little input with high output value. I'm not killing people, I am participating in a sport which gives me the same satisfaction as a match of soccer does for me. I stay away from the single player when it comes to CoD type games though. The fiction in those games are troublesome for me.

 

DCS: A-10 on the other hand is a sim that requires great investment with a huge payoff when you get a handle on it. I feel fortunate enough to have the time and patience to involve myself with a such a sim. Because of DCS: A-10 I have a greater appreciation for the complexities of CAS and the chaos war is. It also satisfies the little kid inside of me that watched Top Gun too many times growing up, who was captured by the idea of being a fighter pilot.

 

As an adult today, I am simply unable to endorse US Foreign Policy decisions when it comes to use of force. But in the virtual world, I get to pretend that everything is virtuous and I'm the good guy/they're the bad guy.

 

 

Overall, I think it's healthy to contemplate what the reality is that these games reflect. :)

[manfrez01]

Naaa, just try to realize that real pilots use simulators to train too, and then they go out and kill people. There might be a progression, but they are two completely distinct ideas. However if the idea of a simulator is to simulate reality, and not a simulation, then I'd say that effectively, if you are having those feelings, then the simulator in question is probably doing its job right.

 

Be careful this may be taken by some kind of kids and ignorant mothers as a "per se" statement.;)specialy "and then they go out and kill people".-

[manfrez01]

Swift,

Overall, I think it's healthy to contemplate what the reality is that these games reflect. :)

you mean to reality or the life it self...? Just asking.-

[RagnarDa]

I think it speaks positively about the OP and his well-developed empathic capability that you understand that the things you do in the game would have horrible consequences to people that no-one probably should experience. It's ultimately a good thing that you think like that.

 

Just a thought: are you worried that killing pixels will somehow make you more likely kill people? If so, don't worry about that. Thinking about something or pretending to do something wont magically make you do that if that's not something you want to do. Its like walking over a bridge and thinking about jumping off of it. Everyone have thoughts like that, but that doesnt mean people jump off bridges all the time (if its not something they planned to do).

 

About real life soldiers and guilt. I've read research that looked at homecoming OIF-veterans (i think) and if they thought the war was justified. They compared soldiers that had killed someone and those that hadn't. Those that had killed someone in Iraq where far more likely to state that the war was justified than those that hadn't killed someone. The researchers thinks that hints how soldiers deal with the guilt of having taken someone elses life.

 

Also, I am (almost) a professional in this area. Im finishing my psychologist education next year and everyone feel free to PM me about said subjects and I'll help the best I can.

Edited January 11, 2013 by RagnarDa

[Pilotasso]

Hello folks

 

For less than a year I am experiencing a strong feeling, that is preventing me from fully enjoying military simulators (DCS, F4, ArmA, etc). The feeling I'm experiencing lately, that is causing me a certain feeling of sadness and emptyness, arises in that, ultimately, I'm pretending to kill people.

 

When I see an armored vehicle on fire, I can not stop thinking about the crew inside.

When I see the smoke coming out of the buildings I imagine the devastating effect and the huge number of people killed if it were real.

When I see an airframe blown out of the sky I think about those pilots, that loved to fly but were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

I stopped playing ArmA and FPS because I do not enjoy running around with a gun pretending to kill humans, anymore. I know that some of you will find this message funny or at least unusual in a military theme forum. Honestly, I do not quite understand why these images come to my mind when generally I really enjoy simulators.

 

I wonder if any of you feel something similar, or what techniques you use to desensitize about death in your simulation experience. Or even, how professional soldiers overcome guilt when they know they have killed people?

 

Thanks.

 

Swift your not doing any harm or anything wrong, perhaps it is something externally to you creating that feeling you havent even constiously be aware. Todays economic depression causing misery around us could cause same feelings for some.

 

I face the simulation as a skill challenge. Its human nature to be competitive. Your not killing people just pissing other players off :D

Edited January 11, 2013 by Pilotasso

[Stickers]

you mean to reality or the life it self...? Just asking.-

 

Basically I'm saying it's okay to have those thoughts of empathy for those involved in combat. In the virtual world, we get infinite lives.

[Speed]

So you're feeling a little guilty for enjoying the simulation of one the darker sides of human nature?

 

If so, you should also feel guilty for watching any kinds of war movies, action movies, etc.

 

I know that doesn't help much.

 

Maybe view it this way- you're not harming anybody or making the world a worse place, so your feelings make no sense at all.

 

Ultimately, guilt is often one of the most nonsensical emotions, so maybe just tell yourself that and get on with doing what you enjoy.

Edited January 11, 2013 by Speed

[Manuel]

The feeling of guilt when playing simulations which cover war machinery is a sign for a sensitive consciousness. It is not a bad sign or has anything to do with a trauma. I thing it is very natural if you really think about what you are doing in the simulator (what you are supposed to do). The reason for playing sims like A10c can differ very much. For one it is the pleasure of controlling one of the most complex "games" on the market. For others, like mentioned it is the pleasure to feel like or to "be" a soldier for a limited time at leas in your own imagination. What you experience is the result of questioning your own reasons for playing simulations. The question why you do that. What do you get from it. As silly as it sounds: What are you really doing during playing the Sim? This search for a reason in enjoying a Sim may show, that your other parts in Life may not be as reasonable to you as you would like to. Just a guess. As far as it goes for the bad feeling, there is one thing left to say: Your acting is judged by your purpose. You don't have to feel bad for learning a complex military system and stuff.

 

Hope it helps a little. Good luck!

[leafer]

I'm glad you didn't see the apache vid I posted that was later taken down by a mod. You'll be like, ewww...eeeewwwww... :D

 

Naw, you sounded like a nice person, and there's no shame in that. The world can use more people like you. If anything you're not saying you can't bring yourself to shooting down Americans made war machine in a game. ;)

[maturin]

Maybe view it this way- you're not harming anybody or making the world a worse place, so your feelings make no sense at all.

Absolutely wrong. If everyone felt the way the OP did, the world would be a healthier, safer place. (Of course, guilt is never healthy unless it prevents you from doing things which trouble or harm you.) His feelings are normal and human and admirable.

 

Are you telling me that it makes no sense at all to, for example, feel guilt for playing a simulation of the Holocaust? Of course, you would not actually be harming anyone, or making the world a worse place. Playing such a game would not even be immoral (assuming that the game appeared out of thin air, and you weren't supporting the scumbags who developed it with money or publicity). But you better believe that the majority of people would feel revulsion upon sinking hours and hours into a Dachau RTS.

 

Obviously, that's an extreme example, but the situation is the same. We derive enjoyment from something we should rationally and emotionally deplore. As others have said, this is because most of us seek out an experience that is qualitatively, subjectively separate from the raw reality of organized murder. We're in it for the mechanical and technical challenge, the sport. We want to get an approximation of the experiences of those who have terrible things, but for reasons that excuse them. (That said, I believe that a frontline soldier who is truly without guilt, conscious or unconscious is medically abnormal and something of a monster.)

 

I don't feel much in the way of guilt for playing military simulations, but I am aware of the hypocrisy (enough so that Spec Ops: The Line sent me into a daylong funk). I have personally resolved this contradiction by observing that my morals are largely unaffected by my entertainment, as are my politics and my personality. I still wouldn't hurt anyone, and don't actual enjoy the parts that are nothing by pain and loss. I get a kick out of explosions, and try not to think about the overpressure injuries to brain and liver tissue.

Edited January 11, 2013 by maturin

[26-J39]

Firstly I commend you for posting your feelings Swift. :smilewink:

 

I must admit I have felt similar at times, although I've never felt guilty, similar thoughts have put a spoiler on the "fun factor".

 

I think this is a good thing as long as your not stressed by it too much, shows maturity, being able to put yourself on both sides of the fence is a great tool in life.

 

Makes it easier when you imagine its a battle between you and the international bankers :D or some other groups i wont mention :music_whistling: :thumbup: