KA-50 Lost Its Magic

[RedRain]

After joining public server last night was shot down repeatedly by fast jets. Initially there were just 3 x shark in the server when one SU joined on the opponents team. The SU repeatedly shot down all sharks upon arrival at target area's. The KA-50's appear to be sitting ducks, especially with no air support, there positions are easily given away during their attacks, and use of countermeasure, just says, here I am, come kill me. Eventually, all KA's opted out as more fast jets opted in, since FC3 came on board, this has been on-going. Is this what we can expect in future M/P, as the KA-50 now appears to be loosing its magic ?

[Sense]

You can still make your mission the way you want. If the blacksharks have no chance of surviving, the mission is not set up well.

[Bee_Sting]

I know how your feel about this and it's part of the game.You have to adjust your flying to avoid those areas and do more low level flying(25 meters) at a slower speed(90 knots).Since DCS doesn't model the doppler effect for lower flying helos you must be very careful to maintain cover at all times.Try not to fly in areas where your team doesn't have air dominance this takes teamwork for it to work well.Also the server should have some air protection for you in some areas of the MP.In the real battlefield the air commander would never send out attack helos without a air protection shield supported by surface to air vehicles or AA support.Try to find a server that has this and the magic will comeback!

Edited February 8, 2013 by Bee_Sting

[Grimes]

There are still plenty of co-op servers out there that have the Ka-50 used in a more realistic manner.

 

If there is only one player in a fighter and they are on the other team, the Ka-50 doesn't really stand a chance.

[Kuky]

you can also get one of you to fly jet to give other two air cover and keep the Su-27 away from Ka-50's

[B25Mitch]

If you're talking about the match I think you are, then I was the Su-25T pilot.

 

The mission was, in my opinion, poorly designed. F10 view showed aircraft on both sides, the airbases had no air defence, and the terrain was completely flat, which made the Ka50's very vulnerable.

 

I'd never flown the Su-25T before. Earlier that day I'd looked up a youtube clip on how to use the R-60 and R-73 missiles, so I decided to give it a try online.

 

I typically join the side that's losing and attempt to turn the game around, however in this case it resulted in the Ka50's becoming frustrated and dropping out of the game, or switching to fighters.

[VapoR]

To me many of the servers just aren't set up well for a2g guys. I would like to see a very dense AA network up to the FLOT. If you run into trouble at least you can get back under the umbrela and call for help.

[Suchacz]

If there is only one player in a fighter and they are on the other team, the Ka-50 doesn't really stand a chance.

...like in real-life :smilewink:

 

It's a matter of mission design. This is an example, why I don't like team-vs-team missions, it's almost impossible to balance them for both teams. Imho, mixing mud movers and fast movers in one mission isn't the best idea also.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Suchacz

[mwd2]

...like in real-life :smilewink:

 

It's a matter of mission design. This is an example, why I don't like team-vs-team missions, it's almost impossible to balance them for both teams. Imho, mixing mud movers and fast movers in one mission isn't the best idea also.

 

it is never balance, if you have russian hardware against west hardware (in TvT) - but why do you need/want balance? I understand that it is very annoying, after you have 5-10min. do your start checkup fly 10-20min. and then shut down and each fighter is ready and in 2min. andin the air in 3.

 

But the question is, did you something wrong or the player in your team (or the mission designer, give the blue side some "modern" russian hardware)?

[Suchacz]

But the question is, did you something wrong or the player in your team (or the mission designer, give the blue side some "modern" russian hardware)?

Imho, mixing mud movers and fast movers in one mission isn't the best idea also.

^^^ this. DCS can be as real as it gets, but it's still a GAME. So the mission should be entertaining for everyone involved, isn't it? :smilewink:

Edited February 8, 2013 by Suchacz

[Cali]

After joining public server last night was shot down repeatedly by fast jets. Initially there were just 3 x shark in the server when one SU joined on the opponents team. The SU repeatedly shot down all sharks upon arrival at target area's. The KA-50's appear to be sitting ducks, especially with no air support, there positions are easily given away during their attacks, and use of countermeasure, just says, here I am, come kill me. Eventually, all KA's opted out as more fast jets opted in, since FC3 came on board, this has been on-going. Is this what we can expect in future M/P, as the KA-50 now appears to be loosing its magic ?

 

It hasn't lost it's magic. Why would a copter stand a chance against a fighter jet? Copters need air cover or air superiority in order to have a chance to survive in war. The Ka-50 never had any magic. People did fine with them in FC2.....with air cover and sometimes without it. It depends on if the opposing fighter where being preoccupied.

[Boberro]

After joining public server last night was shot down repeatedly by fast jets. Initially there were just 3 x shark in the server when one SU joined on the opponents team. The SU repeatedly shot down all sharks upon arrival at target area's. The KA-50's appear to be sitting ducks, especially with no air support, there positions are easily given away during their attacks, and use of countermeasure, just says, here I am, come kill me. Eventually, all KA's opted out as more fast jets opted in, since FC3 came on board, this has been on-going. Is this what we can expect in future M/P, as the KA-50 now appears to be loosing its magic ?

 

Ka-50 didn't lose its "magic" it didn't have it at start if terms of sell defense devices.

[NoCarrier]

Yeah, I think it's mostly a mission design issue, coupled with clashing expectations from the attack helicopter and ground attack crowd. When many of us think of modern combat aviation, we think of recent conflicts where Western forces have total air supremacy and Apaches and Warthogs reign supreme over the battlefield. But not so long ago, Apache and Warthog pilots faced the very real possibility of being called into action over central Europe, where Eastern Bloc forces would surely contest the skies. Their life expectancy in the face of integrated Warsaw Pact air defenses was measured in hours, if that. There's a reason the US Air Force wanted to get rid of the A-10, and that reason is the very reasonable expectation that A-10s would get massacred flying over such a battlefield. Some of us seem to have forgotten that.

[sorcer3r]

Maybe AI-CAPs on both sides could help

[Supersheep]

but why do you need/want balance? I understand that it is very annoying

 

There you go, you said it yourself.

Remember that some people, myself included, play DCS to have a good time.

 

 

Super-

[RodrigoMF_BR]

Attack helicopters don´t are made for operates with no aerial cover environment.

 

In very special situations they were used like first attack machines, but this aren´t a standard operation.

 

CO-OP missions using the KA50 requires friend aerial cover, when the environment has foe aircraft.

[STP Dragon]

After joining public server last night was shot down repeatedly by fast jets. Initially there were just 3 x shark in the server when one SU joined on the opponents team. The SU repeatedly shot down all sharks upon arrival at target area's. The KA-50's appear to be sitting ducks, especially with no air support, there positions are easily given away during their attacks, and use of countermeasure, just says, here I am, come kill me. Eventually, all KA's opted out as more fast jets opted in, since FC3 came on board, this has been on-going. Is this what we can expect in future M/P, as the KA-50 now appears to be loosing its magic ?

 

This is not the fault of ED, this is the fault of the mission designer!

 

As mission designer you have to ensure that once a client fighter is active, some A.I. fighters of the other coallition are spawning to protect the Ka-50's.

 

So please assigne this exclamation to the mission designers. :)

[Daniel M]

This is not the fault of ED, this is the fault of the mission designer!

While I agree to an extent, I'm sure the mission had at least one fast mover for them to take. The cold hard facts are they went into a mission area and got hit without top cover. I just don't want people to start going "I got killed, it was the mission designers fault" right away. It's a simulation, not a game, balance doesn't have any weight.:D

 

Edit: Also, I'm not implying that you have to "leave a server if you have no top cover". I use those times to try and practice the previously mentioned "hide and slow seek" tactics and get to my objectives with out the fast movers detecting me.

 

 

 

BTW, I only fly the ka50, so I do feel the pain. But at the same time, find your strengths, be aware of your weaknesses.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Daniel M

[ajax]

I recently modified one of my squad's older missions to include two distinct battle zones: One for co-op and the other for PvP. Triggers prevent PvP fighters from interfering with the co-op players. Is this realistic? No, but it certainly is more enjoyable for the co-op boys, and the PvP-ers can go head-to-head with other fighters to their heart's content.

[sorcer3r]

Upcoming DCS: UH-1H Huey - Mission type: RWR Escort for Ka-50 :smartass:

[Kaktus29]

@daniel m .. i do think balance has allot to deal with this..

 

 

lets say on one side you have 100 Su-27, and on the other side -your side- you have 2 F-15C .. so, .. will you play this mission? why not, balance has no weight as you said?? ) ..

 

Balance should be somehow "integrated" in the template or mission generator..then MP players can decide how to use the "resources" as they see fit..

 

For instance if team RED needs to attack then this is what is at your disposal (2xSA-6, 3-SA-8, 4-SU-27, 2-KA-50, 20-T-80) .. and team BLUE (something along those line that i wrote for team RED.

 

So then you have a challenge.. a game, ..of course, it would be nice for the offensive team to have a little bit more firepower since usually this is how offence starts-with more firepower than defence, otherwise we are talking suicide ..kamikaze japanese style..

 

Offence in real life always needs to be at least 3:1 ration in order to succeed .. (3:1 doesn't refer to actual number but sum of all power, for instance F-22 has enough power to battle lets say 4 fighters, so the ratio to be the offensive power and maintain this 3:1 ratio would be in nominal terms 4 F-22 vs. 1 Su-27..but because F-22 is more powerful the number is actually 1 F22 vs. 1 Mig-29 for instance(this would be 3:1 ratio for the Raptor in favor of the raptors)..

 

But nobody wants to fight real life scenarios since nobody wants to loose)) If we play vs. AI this sucks, if we play vs. humans we have to make balanced scenarios..

 

US vs. Taliban is not balanced for instance.. its not fun, not engaging in simulation or game terms, .. Germany vs. France would be very balanced, actually it would be more of a stalemate where any advantage that would come would have to come with tactics, strategy..not brute power..

 

I think an AI calculator needs to be added before a MP begins.. so it correctly assigns the forces to each team.. and an AI calculator that counts the "damage" afterwards and proclaims victory.. for instance if 1 Raptor would be destroyed while destroying in the process 6 Su-27 this would be tactical victory for the Su-27 team since 6*30million is still lower than 1 F-22.. or the mission is to protect Tank convoy and you end up loosing 4 A-10's while the tank convoy consisted 10 tanks (4 * A-10 is more money than 10 tanks x 5 million)..

 

and the calculator for map victory..if the team actually achieves their goal(preventing the opposite team to advance on ground or Enabling their own team to advance etc..)..

[BRooDJeRo]

Or come to the conclusion that multirole missiondesign isnt as easy as it seems even with the perfect tools provided.

[pepin1234]

Is normal the people feel like that. I have to say a single Heli does not go alone for combat. All combat Heli should be continuously in contact with some ground friendly forces or with his command post ( The command post in our simmulator is the ground commander with the CA ).

 

Situation: Non ground commander in the mission.

 

1- Constant low fly not above 70m. ( is very hard some fighter find you easyly ).

2 - Locate the targets zone, if you do not find them you should stay at stationary till you find them at a distance more than 10 km and around 500 m altitud.

3 - Search a strategic position to attack from ( a town with buildings, mountains )

4 - Never attack with a distance of - 5 km, always longer ( all IR have around 5 km range plus the low level fly is hard for them )

5 - If you are alone and at the other side is a commander after every missile launch you must verify the enemy forward movement.

6 - If you have other town or montain around, you should change the possition there.

7 - If some enemy fighter have find your possition :helpsmilie: you should move backward ( the enemy commander do not see any more you at the map ) and hide you in some town.

 

If you are not ready to do all that. You are not ready to flight in Multiplayer. And Trainning more :pilotfly:

Edited February 8, 2013 by pepin1234

[Frostie]

After joining public server last night was shot down repeatedly by fast jets. Initially there were just 3 x shark in the server when one SU joined on the opponents team. The SU repeatedly shot down all sharks upon arrival at target area's. The KA-50's appear to be sitting ducks, especially with no air support, there positions are easily given away during their attacks, and use of countermeasure, just says, here I am, come kill me. Eventually, all KA's opted out as more fast jets opted in, since FC3 came on board, this has been on-going. Is this what we can expect in future M/P, as the KA-50 now appears to be loosing its magic ?

Nothing lost here, something gained more like, a new dimension. It's a new and enjoyable challenge to fly in a server with fighters on both sides, look at it as the next level, this is high profile war now and heavy casualties on both sides are inevitable.

 

 

Learning how to deal with this threat by choosing your targets carefully and ingressing as stealthy as possible, fly >160kph to reduce radar return range, always use terrain and do not fly direct straight to the hotzone unless you have the all clear.

This is a challenging scenario not one where you plunder all the AI ground units possible in a matter of minutes but one where by taking little steps you make a small dent on the enemy lines, outsmart and survive against human opponents and return back to base, this IMO is far greater reward and experience.

 

You can take this even further by jumping on TS and communicating with your fellow men. Time to start on this new learning curve.

 

If you're doing this in a server which allows externals etc. then it's pointless as any opposing force can find your position by unfair means and exploit that.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Frostie

[JG14_Smil]

Yes, he's correct. BS MP has lost the magic it once had.

 

I'll leave it at that, but he is right.