03 and 07 May 2013 Updates

[chaos]

[Dejjvid]

And this medium fidelity talk is only marketing rubbish.

 

No one consider the A-10A a medium fidelity product. A Good FSX product is medium fidelity.

A dated cockpit, not clickable, barely no systems simulated is lo-fi. AFM does not change that fact. End of story.

[VincentLaw]

Imagine how you would feel if that company started spending more and more time on less complex experiences, what started with FC3 is now moving into the F-15 and Su-27 lite modules and Matt Wagner himself pretty much indicated that the hardcore simmers don't have a lot of a vote here, hearing that kind of thing hurts when you are trying to support a company so it can keep making product that no other company is willing to invest in.

You should not feel hurt by ED. Nothing is personal, but they can't operate without money. Would you prefer if they went bankrupt? If they are the only company that develops for their market like you say, there is probably a reason for it. I expect a company that I support to be financially responsible.

 

Now, we can go all day long about the market share issue, the fact that ED has to make money and all of that, I agree, ED needs to make mid level products that will bring in users but it also needs to be aware that many buy those products to support ED so that they will continue to make the DCS level sims we love.

And you don't think FC3 players buy DCS products to support ED too? It is not just your company. My advice (which I just recently posted) If you want to throw money at ED, do it by buying extra copies of the A-10C. Then their market research data will show them what you want.

 

To be honest, I am unsure of the future of DCS level sims at this stage, at least those coming from ED (where if you had asked me yesterday, I would have said the exact opposite), it seems (to me and clearly others here) that ED is not really giving us a clear picture of what is going on, I am not talking about release dates or anything, I am talking about a basic information that we need to make informed buying choices.

You mean the basic information that led you to write this post? ED is giving us a clearer picture than ever before of what is going on, and certainly better than most other game companies.

 

For example, in some online interviews Matt Wagner indicated that they were working on a selection of aircraft, later on May 3rd, he again talked about development of the F-15C and the Su-27, now, before you say "he never said DCS level", yes, you are right but we also already know that FC3 includes those aircraft, one would have no choice but to assume that he meant honest to goodness DCS level aircraft as a result.

 

So, instead of biting that rumor in the tail right off, they instead hit us with this now and while they assure us that they will eventually work on DCS level versions, it is probably not something that it actually happening any time soon.

You realize this week's update was posted 3 days early right? That may have had something to do with it. ED can't be perfect at predicting the magnitude of assumptions based on a post with no info other than "more info next week." All you had to do was wait until next week before assuming anything and everything would be fine.

 

Instead of three DCS level modern aircraft to look forward to, we now only have one and that one is clearly a long way off, so long in fact that it's release is not certain.

The error in this logic is that thinking full A-10C fidelity of the F-15C and Su-27 would make you get more high fidelity aircraft faster. Not only does it not slow down the F/A-18C, which is already under development, but all of the work being done for this release (basically just the AFM) would have to be done for a hi-fi F-15 and Su-27 anyway... so it's actually not slowing down the release of hi-fi versions of those either. It just means you get to fly the AFM sooner instead of waiting until all of the parts are complete.

 

So, it is a bad time to be into DCS level aircraft it seems, I will use the analogy that I used before when I say that being into DCS level aircraft is not unlike being living in the state of Vermont during voting times, you have three electoral votes for your state while a state like California (FC3 audience) has 55 electoral votes, in the end, you can't help but feel a little helpless as a result.

Thing is, ED wants to build hi-fi simulators. They do it because they have a passion for it, not because it is the most profitable thing. If they didn't care about it, they would just ship some ace combat mass market thing. ED is on your side, but they don't have the money to do everything they want at once.

 

We are willing to wait but we need to know what we are waiting for

You are waiting for DCS: F/A-18C.

 

As I said before, I will support any DCS level endeavor that comes out but I am starting to wonder if we will ever actually see a DCS fast mover at this point.

You might see a MiG-21 pretty soon. I expect it to be good.

And this medium fidelity talk is only marketing rubbish.

 

No one consider the A-10A a medium fidelity product. A Good FSX product is medium fidelity.

A dated cockpit, not clickable, barely no systems simulated is lo-fi. AFM does not change that fact. End of story.

Don't forget there is an entire market level below Lock-on. Ace Combat, HAWX, TOPGUN, and similar products are all low fidelity. Edited May 8, 2013 by VincentLaw

[TAnker737]

I agree Chaos, At least they are being up front with this. ED is the only company that has the guts to make high fidelity sims like this. So I support you guys all the way (ED).

Edited May 8, 2013 by TAnker737

[hypersonik]

And this medium fidelity talk is only marketing rubbish.

 

No one consider the A-10A a medium fidelity product. A Good FSX product is medium fidelity.

A dated cockpit, not clickable, barely no systems simulated is lo-fi. AFM does not change that fact. End of story.

 

:thumbup:

i agree but will contain appointment's to see if they share the AFM with FC3. IF i recall correctly the A10 was given the A10C fligght model- WHY WOULDN'T they do the same. If they don't i will not even remotely consider FC3: SU27+ FC3:F15 :ermm:

 

furthermore this will be a great addition to those who don yet have FC3 OR THAT WANT TO PAY FOR AFM.

Edited May 8, 2013 by hypersonik

[statrekmike]

You should not feel hurt by ED. Nothing is personal, but they can't operate without money. Would you prefer if they went bankrupt? If they are the only company that develops for their market like you say, there is probably a reason for it. I expect a company that I support to be financially responsible.

 

And you don't think FC3 players buy DCS products to support ED too? It is not just your company. My advice (which I just recently posted) If you want to throw money at ED, do it by buying extra copies of the A-10C. Then their market research data will show them what you want.

 

You mean the basic information that led you to write this post? ED is giving us a clearer picture than ever before of what is going on, and certainly better than most other game companies.

 

You realize this week's update was posted 3 days early right? That may have had something to do with it. ED can't be perfect at predicting the magnitude of assumptions based on a post with no info other than "more info next week." All you had to do was wait until next week before assuming anything and everything would be fine.

 

The error in this logic is that thinking full A-10C fidelity of the F-15C and Su-27 would make you get more high fidelity aircraft faster. Not only does it not slow down the F/A-18C, which is already under development, but all of the work being done for this release (basically just the AFM) would have to be done for a hi-fi F-15 and Su-27 anyway... so it's actually not slowing down the release of hi-fi versions of those either. It just means you get to fly the AFM sooner instead of waiting until all of the parts are complete.

 

Thing is, ED wants to build hi-fi simulators. They do it because they have a passion for it, not because it is the most profitable thing. If they didn't care about it, they would just ship some ace combat mass market thing. ED is on your side, but they don't have the money to do everything they want at once.

 

You are waiting for DCS: F/A-18C.

 

You might see a MiG-21 pretty soon. I expect it to be good.

Don't forget there is an entire market level below Lock-on. Ace Combat, HAWX, TOPGUN, and similar products are all low fidelity.

 

 

I appreciate your response but I will say that the onus is not on me to buy multiple copies of the same product to "show support", I understand that not as many bought the DCS level stuff but perhaps that was more to do with a lack of marketing than because of complexity of the product scaring players away.

 

When I said that ED was slow to bite down on that rumor, I was referring to the fact that they have only just now told us that the aircraft they have talked about in interviews a month or more ago are not actually going to be DCS level aircraft but what else are we supposed to assume when these very same aircraft are in FC3.

 

I don't want ED to stop what they are doing, I only hope that they can write up a detailed roadmap that lays out all the products (and what level of fidelity they will have) that they are planning to make and if they are or are not in production yet, this will allow us to know what to expect without giving us release dates to agonize over and prevent sad surprises like the one we just had where a lot of folks were really looking forward to these aircraft getting the full DCS treatment and now they are not (at least not in the near future, perhaps a few years from now).

 

All I am really saying is that they need to give us something to hope for and right now the Hornet is a long way away it seems (it could even be two or three years away) and perhaps so far away that many players won't really feel the need to wait for it.

 

Again, not trying to be all doom and gloom, I will continue to support any DCS level effort by ED without hesitation but I hope I don't need to wait more than two years to see the Hornet (though the MiG does look really nice and I will be buying that on release).

[MudRat02]

I'm heavily biased in this regard, but the Hornet is probably the best choice for the next high fidelity DCS jet. AA, AG, carrier ops. I'm going to turn my back on Falcon once and for all! ;)

[falcon_120]

At this pace,weekly updates are going to last so little... :(

There is no one that can bear a flame war every week because of an announcement.

[Irregular programming]

Ok, let's say we have 10000 lo-fi customers. And 10000 Hi-fi customers.

 

10000 buy Ka-50 and A-10C

15000 buy FC3. (a higher sales number, but 5000 hi-fi customers only buy to support ED).

 

Then someone at marketing believe "omigosh, FC3 sales are sky rocketing, we need to shift focus to lo-fi because we need the cash flow".

 

I don't care if ED release 10 lo-fi modules between every hi-fi module.

The problem is we have been waiting for the hi-fi fighter for ages! And now we see ED shifting focus to lo-fi modules instead of pushing out the hi-fi fighter. That's disappointing.

 

There is no focus, no game studio works on one thing and nothing else, you will not get a DCS fighter faster if ED had chosen to not release these planes.

 

 

What exactly is disappointing about two modern airplanes that can both later be upgraded to a DCS title?

Edited May 8, 2013 by Irregular programming

[statrekmike]

At this pace,weekly updates are going to last so little... :(

There is no one that can bear a flame war every week because of an announcement.

 

 

This is hardly a flame war, I am sorry but this is nothing compared to what you would see in other forums.

 

What we see here is genuine disappointment due to lack of clarification early on, this could have been avoided if ED had told us what to expect much earlier.

 

Also, many DCS fans just found out that they are going to be waiting a lot longer than they might have thought for the official DCS fast mover and that is enough to make anyone a bit cranky.

 

If you want to see flame wars, go to the Rise of flight forums right before they released the weapon modifications, perhaps you could swing by the 1C forums (otherwise known as the Banana forums) after they announced that 777 was going to make the next IL-2, that was nothing but a cesspool of anger and name calling of the likes that I have never seen.

[q800]

In addition to the never-ending quest for DCS perfection (yes, we have dreams too), we are working on releasing the F-15C Eagle and Su-27 Flanker for DCS World later this year. As I have mentioned in the past, DCS is not confined to one time period, one location or one level of detail. While DCS modules have focused on a very high level of detail, we also realize that there are many (often silent) users that wish for a shallower learning curve. In fact, the Lock On / Flaming Cliffs series has been our most successful. As such, the F-15C Eagle and Su-27 Flanker will be catered to them. Both of these aircraft will have the same detailed 3D models, cockpits and sounds of the Flaming Cliffs 3 versions, but we will be adding an Advanced Flight Model (AFM) for each.

 

We also want to release these aircraft in such a manner to allow users that are not interested in Flaming Cliffs 3, or do not have a Lock On installation, to still have these aircraft in their DCS World stable of aircraft, but at a greatly reduced price.

 

This is not to say that we will not also continue to create very high level of detail simulations. At a later point, we will further develop these aircraft to include mouse clickable cockpit and the same level of detail as the DCS: A-10C Warthog, but that is a massive effort that will take time.

 

In the meantime, the F/A-18C Hornet is still planned but we want it to be at the same level as our A-10C. Because of this, development will take much longer compared to the Eagle and Flanker projects to be released this year.

 

:D :D :D

Wooooooow!!! This is brilliant business idea! This is going to be even better than Fighter Ops.

Selling the same products over and over again. How do you feel FC3 buyers? Surprise b**t s*xed?

This is cute.

[chaos]

I'm heavily biased in this regard, but the Hornet is probably the best choice for the next high fidelity DCS jet. AA, AG, carrier ops. I'm going to turn my back on Falcon once and for all! ;)

 

Agreed... However, the choice to simulate an F-18 is, in my opinion, very ambitious because of the complexity. I would've expected ED to take on a 'simple' fast mover as their next project. A pure land based fighter with an outdated radar. Babysteps... Having said that, I'm sure they know what they're doing and I can't wait...

[roob]

The hopes in humanity are falling by the post.

 

A lot of people seems to think that developing one thing is the end of another... And I don't know how many times Wags and the others have stated that these, let's call them side-projects (although they are not), does not occupy space and time of the upcoming god almighty high-fidelity DCS-titles.

 

If ten people are building a car, hiring another ten will not get the car done faster. You'd only have ten guys in the way of the first ten. Those new ten guys are better off doing something else, maybe five of them could make a motorcycle?

 

Food for thought...

[zaelu]

Why so much tears in here?

 

We played Lomac for so many years and was not arcade... now Higher detailed models, higher detailed cockpits, AFM for missiles and AFM for the planes are... arcadish? Go play Warthunder for a change... full real mode...

 

I am OK with small prices for development support... Instead of waiting years and years for a final product (like a kid that waits in full hype a present and gets bored of it in 2 days) at a 60$ I prefer a working beta that gets modules attached to it every now and then at 20$. High fidelity external and internal 3D model... 20$... High fidelity AFM for plane and weapons... 20$... high fidelity avionics.. 20$. In the end is 60 but you get to play it when you are still young and ED has a chance to earn money and to weight the demand for the product or shift direction if needed.

[q800]

I think there are reasonable voices already that say throwing money at ED in hope to get full product in some reasonable future doesn't work quite well. It's company under economic laws.

Edited May 8, 2013 by q800

[eFirehawk]

In the meantime, the F/A-18C Hornet is still planned but we want it to be at the same level as our A-10C.

Could somebody please clarify what that means exactly? Does that mean that the development of DCS: F/A-18C has not actually started yet? I believe I read a few times before that the F/A-18C was already being developed. :noexpression:

[Dejjvid]

I'm well aware how software development work.

 

According to ED the AFM is the hardest part, and if you think building 2 different AFM's is not gonna slow down the progress of the F/A-18C:

a) The F/A-18C AFM is completed

b) You are wrong.

 

A possible cause for the delay is that the current engine can't handle radars in a realistic way and the engine need to be reworked. In either case, ED should tell us the real reasons, and not try to sneak around the issues.

[Frostie]

Ok, let's say we have 10000 lo-fi customers. And 10000 Hi-fi customers.

 

10000 buy Ka-50 and A-10C

15000 buy FC3. (a higher sales number, but 5000 hi-fi customers only buy to support ED).

 

Then someone at marketing believe "omigosh, FC3 sales are sky rocketing, we need to shift focus to lo-fi because we need the cash flow".

 

I don't care if ED release 10 lo-fi modules between every hi-fi module.

The problem is we have been waiting for the hi-fi fighter for ages! And now we see ED shifting focus to lo-fi modules instead of pushing out the hi-fi fighter. That's disappointing.

 

Just look at the online figures and you will see there are 10 times more players flying FC3 aircraft than full DCS modeled aircraft, now transfer that to the larger offline community and the difference makes your buying to support small fry.

 

I fly predominately FC3 aircraft, I also own Ka50, P-51D and A-10C which I adore, i've heard people just purchase DCS products they don't even use such as P-51 and A-10 just to support ED. Yes, it works both ways.

 

And this medium fidelity talk is only marketing rubbish.

 

No one consider the A-10A a medium fidelity product. A Good FSX product is medium fidelity.

A dated cockpit, not clickable, barely no systems simulated is lo-fi. AFM does not change that fact. End of story.

A clickable cockpit does not make something high fidelity, it is part of making it. AFM is probably the most hi-fi apsect you can get for an aircraft simulator so that is a great step towards hi-fi. Then there is weapon selection/performance, engine performance and avionics. FC3 has 2 of those four with AFM that will be 3 of 4, the Su-25 is already there.

Also in FC3 there is simulated weather, dynamic weather, highly detailed simulated opponents, missile AFM etc. That leaves me wondering what exactly warrants med-fi in your opinion.

[howie87]

Yesterday I was devastated by the news but today... I don't know. An advanced flight model is still better than what we have at the moment and as long as it's reasonably priced, I'll probably still buy it.

 

At least we can learn how to fly the jet before we learn how to work all the switches.

 

Things like flap and air brake settings, and differential wheel brakes will hopefully be added as well.

 

We'll have to be patient and carry on waiting for the high fidelity stuff, but at least we're moving in the right direction.

Edited May 8, 2013 by howie87

[sorcer3r]

 

A possible cause for the delay is that the current engine can't handle radars in a realistic way and the engine need to be reworked. In either case, ED should tell us the real reasons, and not try to sneak around the issues.

 

It so obvious:

F-15c/Su27 <- almost everything already finished except AFM

 

F-18c <- almost nothing finished except external 3D model and maybe also that one is still wip.

 

Did some people really expect the f18 this year when you see all the projects ED was developing last and this year? Thats also for me a bit too naive. ;-)

Maybe I have also just no problems with EDs plans because Ive already found my multirole sim and the huey :P

 

you should understand the F15/Su27 as a kickstarter project for the F18 and just be happy.

[q800]

Yesterday I was devastated by the news but today... I don't know. An advanced flight model is still better than what we have at the moment and as long as it's reasonably priced, I'll probably still buy it.

 

At least we can learn how to fly the jet before we learn how to work all the switches.

 

We'll have to be patient and carry on waiting for the high fidelity stuff, but at least we're moving in the right direction.

 

It's like friendzone meme: "keep telling yourself it's better than nothing."

 

right direction? 10 years, same products over and over again, same map.

[Risk]

This is my first post even though I have been a very long time reader and supporter of ED.

 

Someone else here mentioned it is time for new maps, new map graphics and I have to agree.

 

Would absolutely love DCS-F18C with carrier operations and I think really decent (I mean full) carrier operations alone would do wonders to this series.

 

Imagine walking out to your aircraft, boarding and then going through the start-up routine, then being directed to your Cat all along whilst other aircraft are going through the motions.

 

Being shot out in front, meeting up with a tanker, then returning for some circuits and eventually catching the 2 wire.

 

The graphics of the carrier operations would have to be mint though, rolling deck, fully functioning people, steam from the cats etc.

 

 

That for me (with updated graphics) would be worth paying twice as much for. I'd even pre-pay now for an F-18C.

 

I have to agree with X93355, that's all I think about. I've supported ED in there efforts for years, but the only module I keep hoping for is a hardcore study sim involving the FA-18c.

[Yskonyn]

I personally feel dissapointed and it's not because of ED releasing lower fidelity aircraft at all. It's -like others have pointed out earlier- that I feel ED didn't communicate very well about what the roadmap was going to be.

 

Initially ED claimed that the label 'DCS' would stand for high-fidelity study sims. This was all around the release of the A-10C and up to the release of the P-51D.

Just recently they suddenly confirmed a DCS F-15 and DCS SU-27. This has led many to believe these would be high fidelity sims as a result of always claiming DCS modules were going to be high fidelity (although some eyebrow raising was going on questioning about how they would have found the time to create another two high fidelity sims next to the F/A-18 ).

 

Illustrated by a tester:

'Mid-Range' will not bear the DCS brand - that's the distinction.

 

Now, however, ED claim that the label DCS can mean a lot of things regarding era / type of platform (which we already knew), but also level of fidelity. And that is new, at least for me and quite a few others.

 

This resulted in the feeling that ED hasn't been entirely upfront, because what first looked like true DCS fidelity modules of old, now actually are upgraded FC3 aircraft.

 

Also, we get confirmed that the Hornet is a long ways off still too.

People are entitled to be a bit dissapointed and we can discuss that here without resulting in flamewars.

 

I can see the why ED takes this turn from a business perspective, though, and this is fine if this generates more money, of course we all want ED to be able to continue creating software we all love.

 

But they should either be more upfront about things or choose a different way of communicating (read: choosing their words). As suggested earlier, a roadmap would be superb and would prevent a lot of rants and dissapointment.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Yskonyn

[Kuky]

Why do people always ASSUME Su-27 pilot will do a Cobra in front of them... in situation where someone is on your six and has you in his gun sights? :music_whistling: By the way, Cobra demonstrates the superior aerodynamics of the Su-27 as no other aircraft can have such high AoA and not lose control and stall :book:

Edited May 8, 2013 by Kuky

[Frostie]

If ED had kept quiet and released Su27/F-15C later on this year all this nonsense about 'what about DCS:fighter' would never arrived, but because ED lets us know what's going to happen albeit with initially badly worded updates ie. DCS:Su-27/F-15, some people think their rug has been pulled.

 

No it hasn't, you're concocting BS in your minds now go back to sleep.