[REPORTED] Fw 190 Cockpit Bar! (answer Post #173)

[Narushima]

There is an easy way. Most large 3D modeling/rendering software products have an ability to do raytracing rendering. Ask ED's 3D artist, who created Dora cockpit, to do few renders with correct geometry, but with windscreen having refraction index of 1 and refraction index of 1.5 (glass) or so. That should not take lots of his time. Then the effects of refraction can be easily observed.

 

That's a pretty good idea.

 

+1

[Silver_Dragon]

The "main" probrem if the engine have implemented to use that ray-tracing rendering software. The other solution has ED implement or build from the scratch and integrate them into the engine.

[ZaltysZ]

The "main" probrem if the engine have implemented to use that ray-tracing rendering software. The other solution has ED implement or build from the scratch and integrate them into the engine.

 

No one is going to use raytracing in game. 0.3 FPS just won't do it. For now. :) The point is there is 3D model, and it can be used in 3DS MAX (or whatever ED uses) to get the image how the bar looks from cockpit when refraction is taken into account. No need to run around museums asking permission for getting into cockpit and taking photos. Just take the already modeled cockpit, add refractive material to windscreen, put a camera in front of it and render. :)

[NineLine]

These are debate tactics, sithspawn. Let's stick to the facts.:book:

 

No those are facts...

[NineLine]

There is an easy way. Most large 3D modeling/rendering software products have an ability to do raytracing rendering. Ask ED's 3D artist, who created Dora cockpit, to do few renders with correct geometry, but with windscreen having refraction index of 1 and refraction index of 1.5 (glass) or so. That should not take lots of his time. Then the effects of refraction can be easily observed.

 

We are still looking at that, that said, it would only effect the bars and not the nose, and chances are you would just be blocked by the nose at about the same point if it even works...

[Krupi]

I would still rather see bits of the nose gum Dowling than that bar in my gunsight ;) not that it would make a difference to my terrible aim :huh:

[dok_rp]

I had never flown the Fw190D9 in IL2. However, I was well aware of the debate (war at times?) regarding "the bar".

 

After flying the FW190 a few times and at occasions having a hard time getting a better guns solution due to "the bar" obscuring the lower third of the reticule, I now give full credit to this discussion.

 

To me, it just looks like a quite poor workaround for the thick frontal cockpit glass refraction.

 

Since this seems like a half-baked feature, wouldn't it be better off removed entirely?

 

Just my opinion. :)

[NineLine]

Removing the bar completely seems like a poor choice as well... I have seen it transparent and it looks terrible....

[Krupi]

To be perfectly honest at present it is not annoying as much as I had thought it would and we can count our blessings that ED at least have given us something that works unlike a certain Fw 190 A3 that has given me nightmares...

[fastfreddie]

I can live with it the way it is ... the gun cowls or whatever will be in the way most of the time and if your doing deflection shooting without starting to fire by the time the reticle reaches that point anyway your probably going to miss.

[NineLine]

I am still interested in investigating the refraction in 3D Studio... but as stated above, its not really a big issue for me.

[Hans-Joachim Marseille]

It's back ...

 

[IvanK]

I would still rather see bits of the nose gum Dowling than that bar in my gunsight ;) not that it would make a difference to my terrible aim :huh:

 

Precisely Krupi !

 

The argument is about the Bar jutting up above the coaming trim. The defense provided is the cockpit is in accordance with the drawings being used. the facts however are that pretty much every image posted of this area including those from close to pilots perspective show that No thick bar exists.

What we see in the countless images shown in this thread, The various IL2 threads and the BOS threads is a small lip perhaps 5mm high. This lip extending above the coaming cover wgere it intersects the armour glass. The armour glass bottom edge is covered entirely by this lip.

 

First get the lip/bar correct then you can argue the refraction issue !

 

These images indicate the approximate thickness of the bar as we should see it.

 

 

Edited August 7, 2014 by IvanK

[NineLine]

First get the lip/bar correct then you can argue the refraction issue !

 

These images indicate the approximate thickness of the bar as we should see it.

 

Maybe you are confused, but the lip/bar you see in game was done to the drawings, its the thickness of the glass, and refraction that causes it to appear thinner.

[Belphe]

I don't understand why some people laugh at this issue. Who cares if this has been discussed before? Who cares how many posts it takes to cover this subject? Bored? Don't read it!

 

Apparently, this problem has never been fully resolved in any sim so those that love realism and historical accuracy should be happy DCS reaches new levels of immersion (refraction seems to be the culprit here and if ED adds it to their sim it is likely to become the first one that actually found a solution to the dispute and fixed it).

 

Those that paste immature pictures and childish comments in this thread (go on.. I know you want to!) could spare us our time as majority of us don't find them funny..

 

I personally think this "bar issue" needs sorting out no matter how one is receiving this sim. "Sunday Fliers" won't feel any difference when they get shot down (again) and the hardcore simmers will be pleased that ED served a quality product and listened to the community.. (again).

 

Keep up the great work!

Edited August 7, 2014 by Belphe

[NineLine]

Its just not so easy, sure you can do lots of things that will change the accuracy of the the model, but the real solution is real time refraction, which would effect not only the bars, but the fuselage and anything in the view of the front glass.... I dont think that is a real possibility, I think it would kill your FPS... now possibly a partial refract effect just for the frame could be ok, if it works... but again, it wont be 100%.... so you are trading not 100% accurate for not 100% accurate.... more likely people will adapt to the issue before it gets fixed.

[IvanK]

Maybe you are confused, but the lip/bar you see in game was done to the drawings, its the thickness of the glass, and refraction that causes it to appear thinner.

 

 

No Sith I am not confused. I have been researching this for better on than 10 years for various Flight Sims.The Lip is a sealing bead on the pilots side of the Armour glass sheet, so therefore there isn't any refraction going on regarding the lip. As you can see by the images of actual aircraft whatever you want to call it lip or bar it just isnt that thick in these images. Given the images are True to life they are what they are no matter how you choose apply any refraction argument. What we have in the Sim is something extrapolated from drawings. Now the scale aircraft modellers are all aware of the caution required with various drawings. Images don't lie.... Can you find an image from real life that replicates what we see in the sim ?

 

Simply put the instrument coaming (in the real world) runs flat towards the armour glass. at the end of the coaming where it touches the glass is the sealing strip or bead. That is what the pilot can see from his seating position. He cannot see any portion of the armour glass edge .... look at all the images shown it just isn't there .... because this edge is below the level of the coaming bead/seal.

 

 

This is about as bad as the bar can get .... real aircraft with real armour glass:

 

 

Compare that with what we see in DCS:

 

 

the red line indicates about where I believe the top of the bar should be.

 

A dodgy attempt to illustrate how I think it should be.

 

Edited August 8, 2014 by IvanK

[doraemil]

wow the FW 190 should become a meme, its been argued in every sim since 2001.

 

A few points, when I sat in a fw190, there is a point where eye level can drop to where the frame becomes the bar, but if you raise your eye level the bar is less and becomes more of the frame (seen in the hundreds of pit pix people are throwing up)

 

In this elder sim centered around a famous soviet ww2 era ground attack plane that stalin liked, the bar was really bad but I could still nail ships, even the ones that dropped below the bar, I think I figured where their flight direction would take them and hose the sky, cuz the FW had ammo.

 

So even if the bar isn't "fixed" one could still do fabulous gunnery. I've been on the receiving end enough times to know esp in the aforementioned famous sim based on the soviet ground attack plane that the A-10 was sorta partly modeled after where the bar was raised pretty good.

[Fox One]

My view:

[NineLine]

But look closely at your picture... the bar looks smaller, but beyond that I see the fuselage in almost the exact place where the bar is not see (due to refraction I suppose)

[GriffonBR]

wow the FW 190 should become a meme, its been argued in every sim since 2001.

 

 

Lol you're right, since 2001 I see people crying waterfalls about the cockpit bar, and for me it since IL2FB, it was never a problem. Sometimes I think these guys are some kind of troll, with all those pictures and diagrams, I think they don't realize the amount of research that the devs do before start making the virtual model.

[JG4_Sputnik]

The devs never could do as much research as a whole flight sim comunity could do in 10 years. Never heard of collective intelligence? http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_intelligence

 

All these researchers who provide photos and evidence help to make the product better for every one of us. You should rather be thankful for that extra work. And its a chance for the devs to even make a better, say more historical correct, product. Which we all benefit from.

[NineLine]

I am going to submit a report with Fox One's comparison image and we will leave it in the devs hands. I will ask if the internal cockpit model can be adjusted for size based on a rough guesstimate of the bar width with refraction. Thanks for everyone's input.

[NineLine]

Video example here:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=129290

[Mysticpuma]

Regarding the FW190 'Bar' which blocks the view in some Sims..great video explanation

 

JG Nemesis put up a great and informative post showing the issues some Simulations have with the FW-190 cockpit 'Bar' which blocks the view in bad modelling:

 

 

Cheers, MP

Edited August 29, 2014 by Mysticpuma