DCS: Spitfire Mk LF IXc Discussion

[dallas48]

I noticed that film was made in 41.

Anyone know what year they switched from flying the V to the finger 4?

 

Nice vid by the way, thanks for sharing!

[klem]

I noticed that film was made in 41.

Anyone know what year they switched from flying the V to the finger 4?

 

Nice vid by the way, thanks for sharing!

 

Towards the end of the BoB some Squadron commanders had come to the conclusion that the Vic was not fit for purpose.

 

Various changes were tried at Squadron level including two side-by-side fours, each four weaving to keep a look behind. Some had the tail-ender do the weaving and allegorically often lost the weaver without realising because no-one else was watching behind.

 

I don't suppose Douglas Bader was the first to use the finger four or four abreast but in May 1941 Johnny Johnson attributes the idea, in 616 Squadron and the Tangmere wing at least, to Hugh 'Cocky' Dundas who suggested it to DB having observed the LW flying style. Some other Squadrons converted to it, some didn't for a while but eventually it was taken up by all of Fighter Command although I don't know of an official edict.

[horseback]

There seems to have been a gradual move to the finger four and then line abreast in the RAF; in Malta, they seem to have used a string formation well into 1943, and I believe that a similar formation was most often used in N. Africa. The RAF doesn't seem to have had the informal (or formal) dissemination of tactical info that the US Naval and Marine aviators did in the Pacific theater, where the Thach Weave became well-nigh universal after Midway (or after only the second major clash with the IJN).

 

Of course, that may be because there were only so many bars along the Waikiki strip, the favored liberty area for guys pulling into Pearl Harbor to rest, rearm and refuel. Army Air Force units in the Pacific took quite a bit longer to adjust their tactics, in part because their bases were so spread out and they weren't in a position to compare notes.

 

In any case, from my reading it seems to have been a very gradual change, and 8th AF fighter groups in Britain were experimenting with their formations long into 1943 as well, after coming to the (belated) conclusion that a P-47 formation couldn't recover and react the way a Spitfire formation could.

 

cheers

 

horseback

[Harry.R]

New pictures up in the official updates thread chaps.

[Redglyph]

New pictures up in the official updates thread chaps.

 

Yep, nice-looking map too! :)

 

Hopefully those will soon turn into a video.

[Friedrich-4B]

Some other Squadrons converted to it, some didn't for a while but eventually it was taken up by all of Fighter Command although I don't know of an official edict.

 

Of more interest to 1944 is that by 1943, 2 TAF Spitfire squadrons had adopted a formation known as the Fluid Six: (From Shores & Thomas - 2nd Tactical Air Force Volume Four:Squadrons, Camouflage and Markings, Weapons and Tactics 1943 - 1945.):

 

 

[klem]

Yes, that's true. It came later, after the finger 4 had been adopted. We (56) sometimes fly the fluid six, usually depending on numbers. We also fly a fluid 4 at times (take out numbers 5 & 6)

[HiJack]

:music_whistling::music_whistling:

 

So, is it decided/clear what version of this aircraft we are getting? :huh:

[MAD-MM]

I am pretty sure since beginning was clear we getting MKIX Spitfire from ED, with MH434 as real live Counterpart or did you hear any different?

[HiJack]

I am pretty sure since beginning was clear we getting MKIX Spitfire from ED, with MH434 as real live Counterpart or did you hear any different?

OK, thanks.

[HiJack]

So this one is used in the movie BoB, is it the correct version with paint and externals? I hope to build a 1:32 scale model.

[zcrazyx]

I am pretty sure since beginning was clear we getting MKIX Spitfire from ED, with MH434 as real live Counterpart or did you hear any different?

 

I was lucky enough to fly next to her the day before an airshow at IWM Duxford while in the Texan, a beautiful bird it is.

[Friedrich-4B]

So this one is used in the movie BoB, is it the correct version with paint and externals? I hope to build a 1:32 scale model.

[ATTACH]150730[/ATTACH]

A quick google shows MH434 has worn several paint/markings schemes; see forum thread MH434 and Her Many Guises, albeit there are no images of MH434 as AI-A. As it is, Fundekals have a good reputation for accuracy and quality etc, so you can be pretty sure that this set has been properly researched.

[Drag0nWIng]

we can use warthog vs tiger in the future.

\o/

[Captain Orso]

Both the Tiger I and Tiger II has only thin armor on their top-sides and belly.

 

If you could get a decent shot with a fairly high angle of attack you could penetrate the top armor with the .50 cal M2, let alone with a 20mm canon.

 

Also, if you caught a panzer on a road, you could ricochet bullets off the road onto the belly and get penetrations.

 

I'm not sure about the .303 rounds.

[saburo_cz]

WW II planes had only one chance how to damage or destroy Tigers / Tigers II or Panthers with their common weapon. And it was hit engine or engine`s parts throught ventilation holes and set it on fire.

They had no chance to penetrate the top armor.

Speaking of fighters like P-47, P-51, Spitfire ... no special antitank planes and weapons.

 

It was reason why Germans tried to cover these ventilations holes like is on the picture.

[Buzzles]

That's only bullets though, I'd imagine having a bomb dropped on the top armour would have some effect.

[MiloMorai]

Both the Tiger I and Tiger II has only thin armor on their top-sides and belly.

 

If you could get a decent shot with a fairly high angle of attack you could penetrate the top armor with the .50 cal M2, let alone with a 20mm canon.

 

Also, if you caught a panzer on a road, you could ricochet bullets off the road onto the belly and get penetrations.

 

I'm not sure about the .303 rounds.

 

Tiger armour thickness

 

Panther armour

 

 

Illustrating the increase in armour thickness as angle increases

[Cripple]

Remind me what the role of the Spitfire (IX or otherwise) was?

 

I don't seem to recall "tank hunter" was on Mitchell's original design brief. Hence why I'm not wetting myself over Tigers, Panthers, Ocelots, Ginger Tomcats, or any other (tracked) felines. Particularly not in rivet-counting high-definition...

[Cripple]

That's only bullets though, I'd imagine having a bomb dropped on the top armour would have some effect.

 

Good luck with that. The Spitfire doesn't have a bomb sight...

[MiloMorai]

Good luck with that. The Spitfire doesn't have a bomb sight...

 

But the Spitfire did drop bombs.

[Captain Orso]

WW II planes had only one chance how to damage or destroy Tigers / Tigers II or Panthers with their common weapon. And it was hit engine or engine`s parts throught ventilation holes and set it on fire.

They had no chance to penetrate the top armor.

Speaking of fighters like P-47, P-51, Spitfire ... no special antitank planes and weapons.

 

It was reason why Germans tried to cover these ventilations holes like is on the picture.

 

Tiger armour thickness

 

Panther armour

 

 

Illustrating the increase in armour thickness as angle increases

 

The Browning M2 .50 cal will penetrate 19mm of armor The History and Development of U.S. .50 Caliber Ammunition.

 

During WWII when the Army did armor penetration testing, if a given round could pierce (an opening fully through the armor of any size) x thickness of armor 50% of the time, that was the given penetration thickness rating.

 

Note that the Tigers and Panther have 16mm of armor on their decks and underbellies. Although, depending on the angle of attack, certainly not all rounds hitting a 16mm armored surface will penetrate, simple statistics will mean that given enough hits, some rounds will penetrate. Damage caused will be completely dependent on location and totality of the penetration.

 

None of this includes spalting caused by near penetrations.

[MiloMorai]

Tiger deck and belly armour is 25mm.

 

To get a belly shot on the Panther a very acute angle would be required increasing the thickness to 50mm or more. Never mind hitting the road would deform the bullet and velocity would decrease.

[Solty]

Tiger deck and belly armour is 25mm.

 

To get a belly shot on the Panther a very acute angle would be required increasing the thickness to 50mm or more. Never mind hitting the road would deform the bullet and velocity would decrease.

 

Exactly. M2 is a good HMG and it can penetrate many types of targets. But tiger and panther and most other tanks are out of the question. PzII and Sdkfz 251/1 though.

[Krupi]

But the Spitfire did drop bombs.

 

I think Cripple meant in terms of accuracy not if it could carry bombs :smilewink:

 

After reading some enlightening reports on the bomber Spit it sounds like it wasn't particularly ideal for the role! That said I am looking forward to doing bombing runs in it especially if we can do cab rank missions with it and the p-40!

Edited October 31, 2016 by Krupi