Home on Jam missiles in DCSW?

[Gloom Demon]

Are there any home on Jam missiles in DCSW? Or I can safely leave my ECM on, while engaging SAMS?

[71st_Mastiff]

Are there any home on Jam missiles in DCSW? Or I can safely leave my ECM on, while engaging SAMS?

 

yes there is HOJ but it really suxs..

[pepin1234]

Are there any home on Jam missiles in DCSW? Or I can safely leave my ECM on, while engaging SAMS?

 

You can safely leave your ECM egainst russian fighters. The HOJ is practicly inexistent for the russian missiles. The only threat you should care about is the F-15, because the active missile.

 

The RU fighters have the R-77 active seeker, but this Missile have become a short range missile with the new AFM Missile.

 

keep in mind that at 50 km range you are tracked

 

 

read here: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=101998&page=113

Edited November 8, 2013 by pepin1234

[kontiuka]

I think I've gotten 1 HOJ kill in the F-15. It was pretty close range though. WVR, actually. I was proud.:)

[Grim_Smiles]

Are there any home on Jam missiles in DCSW? Or I can safely leave my ECM on, while engaging SAMS?

 

There might be SAMs in DCS that can do it, unsure at this point as I haven't had the time to experiment. But someone mentioned in another section that they had a Roland SAM launcher shutting off the radar and then launching, and that it must be really, really good with its visual tracking because it never failed to hit him. When he brought up that he was leaving his ECM on, that led me to believe that the unusual accuracy without the radar guidance might be due to the missile homing in on his jamming. I haven't seen anything that suggests the real life Roland has HoJ, but if it is guiding it visually in DCS it sounds like it is pretty skilled at it based on what was said.

 

I've been meaning to try this out with the Roland, but what time I do get on DCS lately I've been in the Mustang or Huey/Mi-8. Might try this weekend. But for me, common practice is that once something burns through and acquires me, I shut the jammer off regardless of what it is.

[GGTharos]

I haven't seen anything that suggests the real life Roland has HoJ, but if it is guiding it visually in DCS it sounds like it is pretty skilled at it based on what was said.

 

The roland's ECCM is optical guidance. No HoJ required, and I don't believe the missile itself is capable of it, much like a lot of other beam-riding/SACLOS missiles.

[GGTharos]

On the subject of HoJ,

 

It is a huge misconception that missiles will home on a jamming signal. It may be possible with certain types of jammers, like barrage jammers which continuously emit a signal towards their target.

 

The jammers represented in the game are barrage jammers, which is incorrect. This type of jammer broadcasts noise at high power on a lot of frequencies/channels in an attempt to lower than SNR of the target radars, in other words, to blind them so they cannot see other incoming aircraft. This is the sort of jamming done by dedicated EW aircraft like the EA-6 or EF-18G.

 

ECM onboard fighters is normally an SPJ (Self Protection Jammer) whose job is to break lock if you're locked onto. It ONLY activates when you are locked on to, and only jams the threat signal - meaning the specific frequency and if possible in the direction of that signal.

 

For most missiles, when the target is presenting invalid data (assuming the launching platform can detect this) the missile launch is simply inhibited and you won't be able to launch it.

 

Some missiles are capable of exploiting an SPJ, but we don't know which missiles against which jammers. We know that a lot of missiles can attack barrage jammers, as long as those are broadcasting on the correct frequency, and a lot of missiles have some limited ability to deal with ECM while in-flight ... but you can, for the most part, forget about launching them if the target is jamming before you fire - that of course depends on the sophistication of your platform as well. A better radar can better cope with ECM.

[Frostie]

One of the sweetest kills online is launching an ER on a jamming target, disengaging and then turning back in to reaquire the target and finally seeing the black smokey trail of victory appear in the distance. Realistic, who knows but very satisfying. It worked well in FC1 and 2 but more experienced guys soon caught on.

[Axion]

So, is HOJ effective, does it work from an A2A perspective? Keen to hear from the budgie pilots on this one. Not much success using this engagement method post FC2 in the Ru fighters.

[GGTharos]

No, not really effective.

 

So, is HOJ effective, does it work from an A2A perspective? Keen to hear from the budgie pilots on this one. Not much success using this engagement method post FC2 in the Ru fighters.

[rassy7]

So I was just reading this thread and some of the old BVR Tips & Strategy classics ( http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=55003 ) and I feel like the comments go back and forth as to whether or not a jammer turned on after an enemy fires a non-HOJ shot really CAN break lock.

 

1. Turn it on to deny first shot

2. Turn it off at estimated enemy burn through

---------

3. Turn it on after enemy fires radar-guided non-HOJ shot??? Or not???

[GGTharos]

No, unless you really know what you're doing. Since you're asking the question, you don't know, so forget about it - the advantages you'd gain are probably quite marginal and completely irrelevant inside burn-through ranges.

 

3. Turn it on after enemy fires radar-guided non-HOJ shot??? Or not???

[GGTharos]

Just an observation: You post a whole bunch of stuff without knowing what you're talking about, this paragraph included. There are plenty of people who you will 'never see' flying online.

 

Just an observation:

I never see GGTharos flying online, so it's doubtful that he has a good idea of how it's working currently in DCS MP. It's probably a good idea to be actually flying DCS and not just theorizing about it. Even with all the access to the developers and the information acquired over time, you need to be participating in flying online for your facts not to get outdated. Again, a single player experience with the same systems and weapons in DCS can be completely different from MP..

[Wrecking Crew]

Just an observation:

 

geeez, again.

 

 

WC

[GGTharos]

I understand that you're very important here, and your word is often taken without a challenge, but I doubt that you're up to date with multi-player.

 

I am, but like everyone, there are things that I do, and things that I do not do ... see below.

 

I figured out how to not have ARMs explode, for example, so I know how DCS behaves in MP.

And I barely made comment on these because I do not use them. Good job on figuring those out.

 

HOJ works for all radar a2a missiles and at closer range it forces the missiles into a pure pursuit instead of predicting with lead pursuit.

Try it, that's what I have observed.

I don't need to try anything, I know that ECM forces pure pursuit and it has done so for a long time.

 

Why not explain? Let me.

If nobody sees you, or you think they don't, do not use ECM.

If he can see you and/or launched or you think he launched with TWS, turn on ECM and beam it (3-9 line). It may break the lock and make him waste the missile or at least screw with its trajectory. Keep ECM on as long as you think he can see you. His missiles will pure pursuit instead of lead pursuit, having to travel more distance to reach you, especially if you maneuver as well.

Because it's more complex than what you posted, and highly dependent on range and thus required PRF setting. If you're inside burn through range, chances are turning on ECM is going to be useless - in the 15 seconds it takes for the ECM to come up, the missile will likely be close enough to not care.

 

Missiles will switch back to PN inside burn-through for the given guidance radar.

[pepin1234]

Just look my Track and you will see how bad simulated been the Hoj and the RU Missiles in General.

 

First A-10 is set for no reaction. I haven shot two R-27ER with HOJ, the two was a miss. ( against a target like that!!! )

 

Secound A-10 with non ECM but with Chaff and we are talking about 4 Missiles missed with a poor Performance of speed when they fly down. So the A-10 have enough time to avoid them.

 

The third I really dont wanted to kill him.

 

this really sucks

Missiles AFM by ED.trk

[dpatt711]

On the subject of HoJ,

 

It is a huge misconception that missiles will home on a jamming signal. It may be possible with certain types of jammers, like barrage jammers which continuously emit a signal towards their target.

 

The jammers represented in the game are barrage jammers, which is incorrect. This type of jammer broadcasts noise at high power on a lot of frequencies/channels in an attempt to lower than SNR of the target radars, in other words, to blind them so they cannot see other incoming aircraft. This is the sort of jamming done by dedicated EW aircraft like the EA-6 or EF-18G.

 

ECM onboard fighters is normally an SPJ (Self Protection Jammer) whose job is to break lock if you're locked onto. It ONLY activates when you are locked on to, and only jams the threat signal - meaning the specific frequency and if possible in the direction of that signal.

 

For most missiles, when the target is presenting invalid data (assuming the launching platform can detect this) the missile launch is simply inhibited and you won't be able to launch it.

 

Some missiles are capable of exploiting an SPJ, but we don't know which missiles against which jammers. We know that a lot of missiles can attack barrage jammers, as long as those are broadcasting on the correct frequency, and a lot of missiles have some limited ability to deal with ECM while in-flight ... but you can, for the most part, forget about launching them if the target is jamming before you fire - that of course depends on the sophistication of your platform as well. A better radar can better cope with ECM.

 

Any semi-active missile can theoretically HOJ. There is no difference between the signal from a jammer, and the reflected signal from the host aircraft. (If there was, it wouldn't be effective). Active missiles are used for HOJ because they can burn through the jammer and will have the required accuracy in the last stages of interception. All in all it's rather useless because you can usually always burn through the jammer before you are even in missile engagement range.

[vicx]

It wasn't dead it was just sleeping. I recognise some of the posters so it can't have been i the ground that long.

 

On the subject ... without knowing doing any research whatsoever I would expect that a missile in HOJ mode would be less effective than an active seeker. It knows where the target is but it doesn't know how far away it is. It should have no problems seeking but optimal guidance should suffer.

[Weltensegler]

Thats the thing. As long as you don't know that, you haven't burned through yet and you know the range is rather inconvenient for your missile to arrive with enough energy.

[Capn kamikaze]

but this Missile have become a short range missile with the new AFM Missile.

 

The AIM-120 has suffered from that too.

[Sweep]

Oh yay this thread again.

 

lol.

 

Edit: thread necro ftw.

[Beamscanner]

On the subject of HoJ,

 

It is a huge misconception that missiles will home on a jamming signal. It may be possible with certain types of jammers, like barrage jammers which continuously emit a signal towards their target.

 

The jammers represented in the game are barrage jammers, which is incorrect. This type of jammer broadcasts noise at high power on a lot of frequencies/channels in an attempt to lower than SNR of the target radars, in other words, to blind them so they cannot see other incoming aircraft. This is the sort of jamming done by dedicated EW aircraft like the EA-6 or EF-18G.

 

ECM onboard fighters is normally an SPJ (Self Protection Jammer) whose job is to break lock if you're locked onto. It ONLY activates when you are locked on to, and only jams the threat signal - meaning the specific frequency and if possible in the direction of that signal.

 

For most missiles, when the target is presenting invalid data (assuming the launching platform can detect this) the missile launch is simply inhibited and you won't be able to launch it.

 

Some missiles are capable of exploiting an SPJ, but we don't know which missiles against which jammers. We know that a lot of missiles can attack barrage jammers, as long as those are broadcasting on the correct frequency, and a lot of missiles have some limited ability to deal with ECM while in-flight ... but you can, for the most part, forget about launching them if the target is jamming before you fire - that of course depends on the sophistication of your platform as well. A better radar can better cope with ECM.

 

 

Not entirely true. SPJ's will jam any threat signal, regardless if it's sensing a hard lock. Also, SPJ's can perform a large number of different jamming techniques based on the threat it detects. what we see in game looks like a Doppler noise repeater that attempts to use a high jammer to skin ratio to hide the real return from the threat. This is a reactive jammer, and only transmits on the freq.'s that it receives(that are not otherwise deemed friendly or it's own), otherwise known as spot jamming(not barrage.. if it was barrage jamming it'd interfere with it's own radar freq.) in game we don't get the option to set up the friendly channels, so everyone(including friendlies) gets jammed.

Edited January 10, 2016 by Beamscanner

[Croaker47]

Not entirely true. SPJ's will jam any threat signal, regardless if it's sensing a hard lock. Also, SPJ's can perform a large number of different jamming techniques based on the threat it detects. what we see in game looks like a Doppler noise repeater that attempts to use a high jammer to skin ratio to hide the real return from the threat. This is a reactive jammer, and only transmits on the freq.'s that it receives(that are not otherwise deemed friendly or it's own), otherwise known as spot jamming(not barrage.. if it was barrage jamming it'd interfere with it's own radar freq.) in game we don't get the option to set up the friendly channels, so everyone(including friendlies) gets jammed.

 

Do we have any Deception Jammers in the sim at the moment?

[GGTharos]

All we have is a range jammer that doesn't have any limitations.

[blkspade]

Oh yeah this is a necro thread for sure. One thing I didn't see anyone mention is that in game all A-A missiles have the tendency to continue tracking jamming target even if fired inside of burn through. This is true of SARH missiles such as the R27(E)R and Aim-7M, and can lead to you being killed by one after the enemy has broken lock.