Derbysieger

This description is pretty much what I see in DCS though. Especially if I compare it to both the other fighters. You CAN throw the Bf 109 pretty hard around at low speeds. If I fly very slow (~270-300km/h, 168-186mph) in the P-51 or Fw 190 the aircraft is much, much harder to maneuver compared to the K4. Maybe it needs to be fine tuned but overall I would say that is a good description of what I see when I fly the Bf 109. Stick length (extensions) also play a role in what you can achieve. And btw you constantly pull more on the virtual stick than I can sustain.

I see the slats coming out all the time when I fly hard maneuvers in the DCS K4 and there is a bit of room for harder maneuvering once they are deployed before I get buffeting but I'm not in a position to judge how much room for harder maneuvers they should give us before the aircraft stalls. What we need are tests with real data from the sim, not just videos, to compare it to RL data if available. Anecdotal evidence is not good enough to judge if it stalls at the right time or not. IMO the videos show not enough to really judge what is happening. I can ride the K4 right on the edge of a stall with minimal corrections after I find the sweet spot but I can not pull and instantly have the stick at that sweet spot. I need to find it first.

The wet runway textures look really cool.

Roadrunner, du hast doch schon ein HOTAS oder? In dem fall ist TrackIR meiner Meinung nach ein weitaus besseres Investment. Versteh mich bitte nicht falsch, ich bin sehr zufrieden mit meinem HOTAS WH (hab ihn jetzt bald seit 3 Jahren) aber wenn man sowieso schon Besitzer eines HOTAS ist dann gibt einem TrackIR viel mehr als ein HOTAS WH.

That quote implies that the bang was very dependend on the rate at which the AoA increased. Interesting.

I think I read about that 'bang' here before. IIRC those discussions didn't come to any solid conclusion but it was assumed the bang was caused by a slat that was stuck and then suddenly deployed. I could be completely wrong though. It's been a while. Regarding the stall warning I think the Bf 109 gives plenty of warning compared to the P-51 or Fw 190. Also, compared to the other fighters we currently have in DCS a stall in the Bf 109 is pretty forgiving and by no means as violent as it is in the P-51 or the Fw 190 (IMO).

Control stiffening happens fairly early in the bf 109, much earlier than in the other fighters we currently have. The effect becomes more noticeable the faster you go. I think at 50% deflection you would stall eventually in any of the fighters I haven't tested this specifically but even in slow turning fights I rarely pull the stick to full deflection and at medium or high speeds you need very little input to pull a lot of G and at medium speed you can easily pull the stick far enough to stall.

I think you don't realize why this is happening. In DCS your pilot has limited "strength" which limits his ability to pull the virtual stick past a certain point as speed increases. However, you are NOT limited by this on your physical joystick so it is very easy to pull way past that point. As the aircraft loses speed your virtual pilot will deflect the stick more and more until he is able to match the position of his virtual stick to the position of your physical joystick. If the position of your joystick is past the point where the aircraft can sustain a turn you will inevitably stall. As mentioned before this is not intuitive and yes, the P-51 and the Fw 190 are effected by this as well it ijust isn't nearly as pronounced as it is in the Bf 109.

If you pull past a certain point at speeds higher than 300km/h (I think) this effect becomes noticeable and if you then pull past that point on your joystick the virtual stick in the cockpit moves as you lose speed. Hope that makes sense. So what you really need to do is find the point where you can sustain a turn at a certain speed without moving the stick. Rudder input is also important to maintain speed and I noticed in your video that the ball was off center a lot of times even though you clearly tried to keep it centered which certainly isn't easy if you're close to a stall..

The problem with a test like this is how DCS currently simulates stick forces. The Bf 109 required a lot of forces to move the stick/control surfaces at high speeds. The way DCS simulates it right now is that it limits the range of the virtual stick the faster you go. If you fly at 500km/h and then pull on the stick you will notice a moment where the virtual stick in the cockpit stops moving even though you still have a lot of range on your joystick left. It is by no means a very intuitive way of doing it but it is WIP and maybe ED can come up with a better way of doing it. Also as jcomm mentioned rudder in the Bf 109 is currently uneffected by the effect but this is known and will be added in future. I think the Fw 190 and P-51 already have this effect for pitch, roll and yaw, it just isn't nearly as strong as it is in the Bf 109

I think the problem is how do you simulate realistic stick forces for everyone? I can totally understand why people don't like the current implementation but no stick force simulation at all is not the way to go. I personally am mostly okay with how ED decided to implement it. It's not perfect but I don't know how you could simulate this properly without compromises. I'm sure that rudder stiffening will be added as well in future patches, this is still a beta after all. Before this change I had no problems taking the Bf 109 to places a real pilot would never be able to take it, now we're limited to a much more realistic flight envelope but it comes at the cost of odd and counter intuitive behaviour. I think no stick force simulation at all is not a good idea. It would make the Bf 109 a much better fighter than it really was.

Judging from the highly varying results I get I have the impression that it's mainly a problem with the DM but it's really hard to come to a conclusion just because of how inconsistent my results are. If I get good hits on the fuselage one or two bursts with the MGs is usually enough to take out an AI P-51D and I have killed quite a few AI P-51D's with just 1-3 30mm hits on the fuselage although the one hit kills are almost always pilot kills. However, the wings of the aircraft seem to take way more hits then they should be able to. For example: I have peppered wing roots of AI P-51Ds with 30mm shells and MG fire in many dogfights in the past and the P-51D just kept on flying with smoke and fuel coming from the wing but no noticeable performance impact. This is something I see all the time. I've had ACMI tracks that showed 7-8(!) 30mm hits within a pretty small area on the wing close to the fuselage and the P-51 just kept on flying. The few times I flew the Bf 109 in MP I only scored 3 kills but my first impression was that the guns and the cannon are very powerful. One kill was just a quick MG burst that killed the pilot, then I killed an engine with a short MG burst forcing the pilot to bail and lastly a kill where the P-51D just exploded after a few 30mm hits (also Pilot kill). The first impression I got was that it's very powerful armament but I have not flown enough multiplayer in the Bf 109 to have a good impression about the damage it does to human players with ASM, especially because all my 3 kills where with hits on the fuselage.

The manual we get with the game actually states 1.45ATA but I seem to remember that it said 1.35ATA at some point (that's why I wrote 1.35ATA). Anyway, I noticed there is a point before MW50 is injected where you risk overheating and detonation and it's just before the boost jumps to 1.8ATA, so better safe than sorry. Either use 1.8ATA&MW50 or stay around 1.35ATA-1.42ATA

ach wirklich? :D vIkk3ykO_QU

Nix da! Du spielst dann gefälligst JTAC/Gamemaster für uns :P :music_whistling: :D

Interessant, dass du TrackIR als weniger wichtig einstufst als anderes equipment. Ich selber bin ja noch recht neu was Flugsims anbelangt und habe mit einem Logitech 3D Pro angefangen (bin 2011 infiziert worden als ich mir die A-10 in einem Steam Sale + Joystick zum Geburtstag gegönnt habe). Mit dem Stick bin ich knapp ein Jahr lang geflogen und habe mir dann TrackIR, HOTAS WH, und Pedale gekauft und ich muss sagen, dass TrackIR für mich den größten Unterschied gemacht hat (ich glaube ich bin damals nur A-10C und P-51D geflogen, BS2 hatte ich glaube ich noch nicht). Eigentlich alle mit denen ich fliege stufen TrackIR auch als wichtiger ein als ein teures HOTAS. Pedale sind nochmal eine andere Sache. Bei Jets brauche ich nicht überlegen, da ist TrackIR m.M.n. in jedem Fall Pedalen vorzuziehen, bei Helis würde ich Pedale vorziehen. Wenn es allerdings zu den WWII Modulen kommt wird's schwieriger. Pedale und SA sind beides enorm wichtig in Dogfights solange man aber nicht Multiplayer fliegt würde ich glaube ich auch hier TIR vorziehen (Stichwort Rudder assist). Ich bin selber P-51D mit rudder assist (kein T/O assist) für kurze Zeit geflogen bevor ich die Pedale hatte und das ging ganz in Ordnung.

I'm not sure how long you need to rest the engine after MW50 use (don't have the manual on this PC) but it's long enough that 5-6 uses in 15minutes are way over the safety limit. Combat power is 1.35ATA and it is usually enough to fight efficiently but I did use 1.8ATA + MW50 for the whole duration of a dogfight w/o problems yesterday (as a test). The Dogfight lasted about 2minutes and I then flew ~7 minutes to an airbase at cruise settings (1.1ATA). There were other tests I did two days ago described in this post: http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2375412&postcount=7 Nothing scientific, just some random stress tests I did to see what has changed.

How frequently do you do this? I think the engine doesn't like it when you use these short bursts of power. I only use 1.8ATA&MW 50 when I really need it. Either to get quickly behind an opponent or to climb away from one. There is no need to limit the use to small bursts. If you need additional power in a combat situation use it for as long as you need it - up to 10min at a time - but after that you have to stay off MW50 for a while or you risk damage to your engine. I did some tests yesterday just flying around at different speeds altitudes and power settings and I also flew a bunch of instant action dogfights and I had no problems with my engine unless I did something wrong (1.8ATA w/o MW-50, constant switching between 1.8ATA&MW50 and 1.4ATA).

Das hört sich an als würdest du einen riesen Fehler machen: Du solltest niemals ruckartig am Stick ziehen und man muss den Stick auch eher selten komplett nach hinten ziehen, selbst in Kampfmaneuvern. In der A-10C sollte man im normalen Flug nur minimale Korrekturen vornehmen und in Kampfmaneuvern müssen die Eingaben ruhig und präzise vorgenommen werden damit man keinen Strömungsabriss herbeiführt. Bei Maneuvern kann man den Stick durchaus mal komplett nach hinten ziehen aber die Maschine ist nicht in der Lage so für länger als ein paar Sekunden zu fliegen ohne dass es zum Strömungsabriss kommt und gerade hier ist Fingerspitzengefühl gefragt, welches Anfängern meistens noch fehlt. Du hörst einen Warnton (ein lautes langezogenes biiep) wenn du kurz vor einem Strömungsabriss stehst. Sobald es zum Strömungsabriss kommt wird dieser Dauerton zu einem biep biep biep biep biep. Mit etwas Übung kann man genau so fliegen dass man in scharfen Kurven immer kurz vor dem Strömungsabris steht allerdings muss einem auch klar sein, dass man damit extrem viel Energie (Geschwindigkeit) verliert und gutes Energiemanagement ist die Lebensversicherung schlechthin in einem Kampfflugzeug. Die A-10C ist kein Fighter mit hoher thrust to weight ratio und selbst Fighter wie die F-15 oder der Eurofighter verlieren extrem viel Energie wenn man den Stick komplett zurück zieht und bei hohen Geschwindigkeiten kann es auch hier sehr schnell zum Strömungsabriss kommen bevor man den Stick überhaupt komplett zurück gezogen hat (wenn ein fly by wire system das nicht verhindert). Also Eingaben immer ruhig und präzise vornehmen dann klappt das auch. Bei dem HOTAS solltest du eigentlich nach etwas Eingewöhnung problemlos mit linearem Profil fliegen können aber gerade Anfängern kann eine leichte Kurve enorm helfen. Ich würde jedoch auf keinen Fall einen höheren Wert als 30 wählen, besser 20-25. In den Optionen im Achsen Dropdownmenu einfach die x/y Achsen auswählen und auf Axis tune klicken. Dort kann man dann für die ausgewählte Achse Deadzones und Kurven einstellen.

My MW 50 is definitely working. Pressure on the MW50 pressure gauge jumps up when I go full throttle and when I go to 1.8 ATA without MW50 my engine quickly dies. So yeah might be a result of flying the engine without MW 50

MW 50 works just fine on my end. I tested the instant action Dogfight as well as a training mission I build for my squadron. Are you sure you didn't forget something? BTW there is a new effect when you reduce throttle from 1.8ATA to 1.45ATA. There is vapour or smoke comming from the engine exhaust when you throttle back.

I flew around in the Bf 109 for about 30minutes just now and unless I'm doing something the engine is not supposed to do in the first place (like flying at 1.8ATA w/o MW 50) and watch my temps it was perfectly fine. I started out by climbing to 6000m at ~270km/h IAS, 1.35ATA. I then accelerated to 450km/h IAS. Flew around for about 5 more minutes before I engaged MW 50 and firewalled the throttle. Flew around for another ~5mins at 1.8ATA & MW 50 before reducing throttle to cruise settings and starting a descend. At 1000m I stopped and started flying maneuvers at 1.35-1.41ATA. Still no problems. Went ahead and flew at 1.8ATA for a couple of maneuvers at low and high speed. Temperatures were high but still ok. Now I decided to turn MW 50 off, et voila, after a few moments my engine died ... Edit: Repeated this with a fresh aircraft a couple of times and I can confirm that 1.8ATA without MW50 kills your engine. With MW 50 it's totally fine even at low speeds if you watch your temperatures

AFAIK you should only fly at 1.8ATA with MW50 otherwise you risk destroying the engine rather quickly.

Slowly getting into the WWII fighters again after a few months of MiG-21Bis, Huey and A-10C:

I should have made clear that I was only talking about stick and rudder input. Yes, there is a lot more checking gauges and adjusting throttle in the Mustang but I just find it easier to fly her at the edge of the flight envelope. Maybe it's because I have two years of flying the Mustang prior to the D-9 and the K-4 but overall I find it easier to get the P-51 right to the edge without overdoing it.