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The controls in 1.5 are worse for hotas users.


FeistyLemur

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I for one, find new toggle controls to be great for people with less sophisticated flight sticks like myself.

 

Many people wanted that functionality, which is why it was added, and I support it as well. However, it is the removal of the non-toggle control options that has created an issue for some of us.

 

Though I am sure I could manage once I come up with new programs for the hardware, but it is the availability of choice that I would like to see.

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I specifically built a custom toggle box to sit in between my hotas just for dcs and the mig21 had gotten the most use out of it as it was my favourite module, now it sits idly. This isn't a jab at LN either, you guys have done amazing work with the mig21 I would just like to continue to have the same great experience with it moving forward.

 

I'm in the process of building one as well. Luckily the board I got has multiple functions for each switch. EG switch up - Joystick button 1, switch down - Joystick button 2. It will still work with toggles, but it will also get out of sync.

 

The hotas warthog switches though have no workaround without using the target software to emulate key-presses that I can see though. And I really dislike target. It adds delay between switch throw and action, and it's more software to run.

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This isn't a jab at LN either, you guys have done amazing work with the mig21 I would just like to continue to have the same great experience with it moving forward.

 

Agreed. This is definitely not having a pop at LN. The Fishbed is a fantastic module. It's just this one change that seems to have been a (fairly major) step backwards.

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+1 to this

 

Here is a list of commands, suggestions and general thoughts. Others perhaps will add notes to this. I have not fully gone over every change in 1.5 and I compiled this list based on looking at the controls as they stand in the release version.

 

 

Most important - These commands absolutely require separate on off functionality for definitive use without having to look down or check to see if they have gotten out of sync.

 

Weapon Mode - Air/Ground

Weapon Mode - IR/Neutral/Sar

Asp Mode - Missiles-rockets/Gun

Asp Mode - Bombardment/Shooting

Asp Main Mode - Manual/Auto

Asp Mode - Giro/Missile

Radar - Off/prep/on

Low Altitude off/comp/on

Locked Beam on/off

Missiles - Rockets Launch on/off

GS-23 gun on/off

Emergency Afterburner on/off

Engine Emergency Air Start on/off

Anti Surge Doors auto/manual

Flaps neutral/takeoff/landing

Gear up/neuteral/down

Gear handle fixator on/off

SPRD(RATO) drop cover open/close

release weapon cover open/close

Emergency Missile - rocket launch cover opoen/close

 

Less important - These commands are not absolutely vital but are nice to be able to add to a home cockpit or hotas set up and should also remain separate commands.

 

Navigation Lights Off/min/med/max

RSBN Mode Land/navigation/descend

Landing Lights off/taxi/land

pitot tube selector main/emergency

nosegear brake off/on

secure canopy on/off

hermetize canopy on/off

APU on/off

Drag chute cover open/close

Pipper on/off

Fix Net on/off

 

Not in game should be added - Some of these have already been added in 1.5, such as radio channel up down.

 

Radio channel next/previous

Weapon selector next/previous

rsbn navigation next/previous

prmg landing next/previous

engine stop lock on/off <- this one would be especially nice to get working properly with the warthog throttle stop lock, the current toggle is unworkable for this without using target, and even then it's iffy.

 

 

In general. If it has an off / on or multi position command structure now it should not be removed. The ideal setup that is inclusive to all types of users is what's done in FC3 for certain commands. example...

 

-toggle up

-toggle down

-toggle up/down

 

or...

 

-pos1

-pos2

-pos3

-pos4

-toggle pos1 - pos4

 

with this methodology everyone is happy, no one is left out and it doesn't need to be a fight over casual vs realistic that some people seem to feel it needs to be. Also I would possibly select a layout by cockpit location like some of the other modules do. Example, in black shark you have a "stick" option or "left panel" option. Maybe consider laying it out in accordance to the zones of the cockpit described in the manual.

 

I realize the goal here may be to clean up some of the extraneous commands. But if you're going to do that do it on non vital commands such as the various startup switches that are typically mouse clicked anyway twice per flight. Like for example the inverter and battery switches.

 

I found also the "new" controls to be a total disregard o what was actually asked. People asked to add simplified controls not to replace. People asked for weapon selector to be also available in simplified mode "next-previous" but nothing was done for it. Not to mention the broken ones.

 

For me is clearly rushed job. I know it's a Beta... but when it gets far worse than it was...

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I had already guessed this would be the case from the release notes. I am less than thrilled. If I wanted sim-lite simplified toggle controls, I would play Flaming Cliffs or Strike Fighters. The whole point of DCS, with each aircraft costing as much as an entire game, is for each aircraft to be so realistically detailed as to be considered worth the price of an entire game. I don't mind being inclusive: easy or convenient options in addition to the most realistic setups.

 

This is similar to the steering/brakes situation. Most people even willing to buy/fly the MiG-21 in DCS were the same people that wanted the steering/brake controls to have the option to function 100% realistically. Know your audience. Screwing the majority (who were silent because they were happy) to please a vocal minority will kill a business fast.

 

I am only all too happy to say I won't be beta testing DCS. I lack the time/patience to deal with installing/testing bug ridden software. I will wait for the final public release of 1.5, even then knowing it will still have some significant bugs. But this change in the controls wasn't an accident. The DCS level scripting was removed and replaced by Flaming Cliffs level scripting on purpose. I don't see how a third party producing a module at this level of realism could think that was a good idea. I hope it is fixed by the time the update is global. If not, the MiG will join the other FC aircraft as being neglected in preference to the more detailed and realistic ones.

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I had already guessed this would be the case from the release notes. I am less than thrilled. If I wanted sim-lite simplified toggle controls, I would play Flaming Cliffs or Strike Fighters. The whole point of DCS, with each aircraft costing as much as an entire game, is for each aircraft to be so realistically detailed as to be considered worth the price of an entire game. I don't mind being inclusive: easy or convenient options in addition to the most realistic setups.

 

This is similar to the steering/brakes situation. Most people even willing to buy/fly the MiG-21 in DCS were the same people that wanted the steering/brake controls to have the option to function 100% realistically. Know your audience. Screwing the majority (who were silent because they were happy) to please a vocal minority will kill a business fast.

 

I am only all too happy to say I won't be beta testing DCS. I lack the time/patience to deal with installing/testing bug ridden software. I will wait for the final public release of 1.5, even then knowing it will still have some significant bugs. But this change in the controls wasn't an accident. The DCS level scripting was removed and replaced by Flaming Cliffs level scripting on purpose. I don't see how a third party producing a module at this level of realism could think that was a good idea. I hope it is fixed by the time the update is global. If not, the MiG will join the other FC aircraft as being neglected in preference to the more detailed and realistic ones.

 

 

I completely agree that it shouldn't have been removed and the old bindings need to come back, but the functionality is still there, you can still click all the switches in the same manner so I certainly wouldn't day that it has been brought down to FC3 level of detail. It sucks but I doubt it is somehing that LN can't easily fix.

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Another useful keys that were removed are NPP course set. Please bring them back. :)

You could also add keys to turn the barometric pressure knob.

 

Another multiple selector knob that would benefit from having "turn left/right key" is the dangerous altitude warning selector.

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For people with HOTAS (fancy programmable stick/throttles), toggles are a pain in the ass. You really want different commands for On/Off or Up/Down so that moving a switch always gives a predictable result. It's far too easy to get out of sync with toggles.

 

Not correct. Only those who have a physical switches will be annoyed now. And that basically means TM WH x55 HOTAS. But others like G940 HOTAS or combinations like joystick,+keyboard will benefit from toggles.

 

The best solution would be to support both options.

 

Actually the only way is to offer both. I have wondered why we don't get all as individual positions (switches, knobs, sliders) or as toggles as there are all kind a controllers from pre-made and custom made ones.

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Not correct. Only those who have a physical switches will be annoyed now. And that basically means TM WH x55 HOTAS. But others like G940 HOTAS or combinations like joystick,+keyboard will benefit from toggles.

 

I have X52 + keyboard and I'm not happy about having to redo all my controls. I don't see much benefit to the toggles as I already had a system that worked.

 

Good on LN for listening to feedback, but things like this need to really be thought through. From the moment I saw the note about replaced commands I was worried. It's not even like the side that wanted to keep the old commands were silent. But what's done is done, let's hope this can just be a lesson for the future. Options are better than doing it one way only.

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And that basically means TM WH x55 HOTAS. But others like G940 HOTAS or combinations like joystick,+keyboard will benefit from toggles.

 

In fact only Tm Warthog or custom switches box, as the X-55 switches are momentarily - don't lock Up or Down - work like keyboard key press.

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I copied my 1.2 profile to 1.5, the only change I noticed was my airbrake button pair became a single button toggle. That part is slightly annoying, but not a huge deal imho. I haven't noticed any other functions turn into toggles. All the weapons, radar and landing gear functions appear unchanged.

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I copied my 1.2 profile to 1.5, the only change I noticed was my airbrake button pair became a single button toggle. That part is slightly annoying, but not a huge deal imho. I haven't noticed any other functions turn into toggles. All the weapons, radar and landing gear functions appear unchanged.

 

I think it's time to ask people who have an agenda to spite TM warthog users, or don't know what they're talking about on the subject to stop chiming in with how they like the changes.

 

Yes, I know, you want your easy toggles. You can have them. Let's repeat for emphasis.

 

You can have them and there's no reason to break the game for other players to get them. So stop it already.

 

This is patently false and you didn't read the thread. In my list of things that need to be reverted pretty much every function I listed which is vital has been changed to a simple toggle with the exception of the gear lever. The flaps function is 3 positions and it was changed to a simple up down option. There's no way whatsoever to make this work anymore on a switch, and even as a keyboard user you can't bind the middle position and are forced to cycle through and look down to see what position the switch is in. This is an awful design decision in a sim that is touted as full realism.

 

This is actually WORSE in implementation than FC3 which includes separate commands for many features to support both.


Edited by FeistyLemur
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It's a Beta release, guys.

 

If you have some time; make a list of changes you'd like to see for your HOTAS setup.

preferred when it was in two versions

 

it would be cool if in the options user can choose an old and a new version of controls.

overall, the update is excellent.

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I am sorry LN. But, you screw up. You should have kept the old system too. Is it difficult? I dont think so. I love the Mi21, but now, i ll have to make use of the keyboard. I bougth a WH which is a lot of money because i wanted a deeper experience.... i had a saitek wchich worked great.

 

I hope you reconsider this. In fact, i would like any msim, to be this way BOTH systems works much better.

 

Dont get me wrong! Mig21 is one of the bests sims ever!

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Not correct. Only those who have a physical switches will be annoyed now. And that basically means TM WH x55 HOTAS. But others like G940 HOTAS or combinations like joystick,+keyboard will benefit from toggles.

 

Wait - you're argumenting who has the right to be annoyed by this? How do you presume to know how all of the people use their controllers? E.g. I could use an X52 Pro hat switch and set one direction to turn something on and the other to turn it off so I know which position I'm pushing for, rather than having to cross check visually as I have to with just a toggle control. But I guess I'm not supposed to use non-switch controllers that way.. Thanks for clearing that out for me before I complained. ;)

 

I'm kind of surprised that all these commands were removed while there was an active thread on the MiG-21 forum asking for a clarification ever since that changelog was posted; meanwhile, the long asked for weapon rotary selector up/down control option was not added..


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Well, just gave the MiG a short try in 1.5 and right back in the hangar it goes.

 

While LNS did good and listened to a part of the community, which is allways nice, they shot an arrow into the knees of the remaining part of the community.

 

Certainly not that what they wanted to achieve I assume. Might want to rethink the approach to this problem for the next releases.

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Yeah the new controls aren't so great, I don't mind the afterburner and airbrake controls being changed, but the rest is just... err... well it was better before...

 

I can't bind flaps and gear properly to my stick so I have to use the keyboard and mouse, and the air restart switch is permanently in the on position and doesn't function.

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Yeah the new controls aren't so great, I don't mind the afterburner and airbrake controls being changed, but the rest is just... err... well it was better before...

 

I can't bind flaps and gear properly to my stick so I have to use the keyboard and mouse, and the air restart switch is permanently in the on position and doesn't function.

 

The unbindable-flaps problem may be on ED as much as LNS. Remember when they added new functions to the Su-27 and F-15, and you ended up with joystick input files that couldn't use the new functions? Seems like the case here.

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We are re-adding many (if not all) of the old commands.

 

Good news, I've been avoiding flying the mig21 in 1.5 without them and I'm really looking forward to having them back so I can get to trying it out more in 1.5

 

Hope you consider adding the extra forward and back controls for the weapons that were suggested by myself and others which I added to post one of this thread.

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