DCS Mirage 2000C Discussion

[PiedDroit]

I don't know to what extent planes do that, but it doesn't need to draw a vector on the target. Just move the pipper based on target maneuvering. In any case, the 2000C uses a historic impact point instead of a predicted impact point. A predicted impact point for the pipper would allow the pilot to fire more easily since the information is not delayed.

I know that (see my post about historical / predicted a couple of page ago). I personally don't think a predicted sight is usable as there are too many inputs involved, it would be jumping all over the place at every target (and own ship) direction change and too sensitive to computational error.

Maybe with some heavy filtering (smoothing) it could become effective.

That's why I was interested in a modern aircraft that's having it, to see if my thinking is good or flawed :)

[VincentLaw]

Maybe with some heavy filtering (smoothing) it could become effective.

Yes, that's what I was getting at, but from the other limitations I've heard about, and the low time resolution of the snake, I doubt the 2000C has the computational power to do that, or it might come at the expense of some other capability. Edited November 12, 2015 by VincentLaw

[Flagrum]

I know that (see my post about historical / predicted a couple of page ago). I personally don't think a predicted sight is usable as there are too many inputs involved, it would be jumping all over the place at every target (and own ship) direction change and too sensitive to computational error.

Maybe with some heavy filtering (smoothing) it could become effective.

That's why I was interested in a modern aircraft that's having it, to see if my thinking is good or flawed :)

The number of variables that have to be taken into account should not be different, I think. The difference is probably that such a historical sight only the "new bullets" have to be calculated - the tail of the snake was already calculated and stays the same. A predicting sight would have to calculate the whole bullet stream every time ... resulting in a snake that is wagging it's tail like crazy, probably.

 

And the movement changes of the target should be irrelevant - only the change in range. (the movement of the target has no impact on the bullets (predicted) trajectory, only your own a/c)

 

But I am faaaaar from being an expert ... and therefore I directly append a question: how do I aim with such a historical snake? There is no pipper really telling me where and how to maneuver, right? I have to develop a "feeling" of how the snake will develop and pull the trigger at some empty space where I think the snake/bullets and the target will meet?

 

Keyword here: "feeling" ... did I get that right?

[Gliptal]

The number of variables that have to be taken into account should not be different, I think. The difference is probably that such a historical sight only the "new bullets" have to be calculated - the tail of the snake was already calculated and stays the same. A predicting sight would have to calculate the whole bullet stream every time ... resulting in a snake that is wagging it's tail like crazy, probably.

 

And the movement changes of the target should be irrelevant - only the change in range. (the movement of the target has no impact on the bullets (predicted) trajectory, only your own a/c)

 

But I am faaaaar from being an expert ... and therefore I directly append a question: how do I aim with such a historical snake? There is no pipper really telling me where and how to maneuver, right? I have to develop a "feeling" of how the snake will develop and pull the trigger at some empty space where I think the snake/bullets and the target will meet?

 

Keyword here: "feeling" ... did I get that right?

Not exactly, or better still, not exclusively. From what I remember from the book everyone keeps referencing (I've read it too), the point of an historical sight is to get you aligned in the same manuever and plane of motion of the target. Once that is done, pulling the trigger is a guaranteed hit provided the target stays on a given point of the sight, because that point shows where bullets would be if they were fired in the past. Obviously the problem now shifts to what point of the sight should the target be, that being a function of the TVVs of both targets and the ballistic behaviour of the bullets at a given shooter state.

[Rain]

How many A-A pylons will we have on our M-2000C?

 

Edited November 12, 2015 by 5./JG11_Rain

[VincentLaw]

A predicting sight would have to calculate the whole bullet stream every time ... resulting in a snake that is wagging it's tail like crazy, probably.

It would be reasonable to make a hybrid sight with a historical snake and a predictive pipper.

 

And the movement changes of the target should be irrelevant - only the change in range. (the movement of the target has no impact on the bullets (predicted) trajectory, only your own a/c)

The movement of the target matters because if, for example, the target is accelerating or moving faster than you, but you ignore that, then the target will be in front of the expected point of impact when the bullets get there.

 

The system actually already makes some assumptions about the velocity of the enemy, assuming that you have maneuvered behind it and matched velocity with it, so a pipper that does not correct for actual target motion would be completely in the wrong spot for frontal aspect shots.

 

how do I aim with such a historical snake? There is no pipper really telling me where and how to maneuver, right? I have to develop a "feeling" of how the snake will develop and pull the trigger at some empty space where I think the snake/bullets and the target will meet?

The Mirage 2000C has a couple of wingspan bars on the snake that you can use to imagine your own funnel if you wish. Additionally, if you have the target on radar, the Mirage 2000C does put a pipper on the snake where you want to shoot.

 

How many A-A pylons will we have on our M-2000C?

Four. The Mirage 2000C can carry two IR missiles and two SARH missiles.

Edited November 12, 2015 by VincentLaw

[Fer_Fer]

How many A-A pylons will we have on our M-2000C?

 

4.

2 outside pylons hold Magic II's, the 2 inner wing pylons hold the Matra Super 530D. which is something roughly the equivalent of an Aim 7.

[Valium]

How many A-A pylons will we have on our M-2000C?

 

 

As someone wrote today, 4 pylons for A-A missiles. There's possibility to add some other but it's for bombs.

 

I have no idea why the name of this video is M-2000C if we can see there Mirage 2000D and 2000-5...

[Rain]

4.

2 outside pylons hold Magic II's, the 2 inner wing pylons hold the Matra Super 530D. which is something roughly the equivalent of an Aim 7.

 

On the video at 2:08 the pilot makes a bank to the left and you can see his loadout. He got 4 pylons underneath the fuselage and they are loaded. They look like A-A missiles, what are those if you can identify them?

 

[escaner]

What aircraft is displaying data about the target ?

I'm curious to see what it looks like (a vector drawn from the target in HUD?). I'm quite sceptical about the usefulness of it but if you're better with it why not, I'm interested to know which aircraft implement it.

Also if you don't like the snake the gun cross is always there so you can still use it as a fixed sight.

 

Predictive displays the pipper so when you put it on your locked target, the projectile stream will go through it. So, it uses same ballistics info as funnel/snake, but also some info about the target (relative position and motion vector) instead of your historical manoeuvring + range.

 

In DCS, both F-15C and Su-27 have this kind of gunsight. Probably also MiG-29. This F-16N displays the snake and a predictive gunsight at the same time:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_tF_mQ7p54gV2ZrZEFzSUVha0E/view?usp=sharing

 

Source:

 

PS: If we are going to keep talking about gunsights, maybe we should move out of this thread, it seems off topic to me...

[VincentLaw]

On the video at 2:08 the pilot makes a bank to the left and you can see his loadout. He got 4 pylons underneath the fuselage and they are loaded. They look like A-A missiles, what are those if you can identify them?

 

Those are MICA EM missiles, but that is a Mirage 2000-5, not a Mirage 2000C. The planes look very similar from the outside, but the systems are very different. The Mirage 2000C cannot fire MICA missiles.

[jojo]

Well, the snake is so useless that even newer Mirage 2000-5, Rafale and Typhoon use it. It's probably because of their limited computer power too :music_whistling:

[hannibal]

a request for a screenshot or video of DCS M2000c with over wing vapor effects? :D

[dartuil]

a request for a screenshot or video of DCS M2000c with over wing vapor effects? :D

 

I second that!!! :pilotfly:

Please show us the first wing vapor plane in DCS.

[rrohde]

a request for a screenshot or video of DCS M2000c with over wing vapor effects? :D

 

Forgot about that too. So yes, please humor us, CptSmiley. :)

[Bacab]

Back to the discussion I don't understand some comments on the snake of the 2000. My understanding of it was that it worked like the EEGS mod of the F-16 except you had a snake instead of the funnel but I assumed it was a cosmetic difference, am I wrong ?

Edited November 13, 2015 by BIGNEWY
1.1

[BIGNEWY]

thread cleaned, keep it on topic please "Mirage 2000 Discussion"

[Jarama]

Hello,

 

What is the maximum and optimal engagement range of the 530D missile?

What about the MAGIC II?

[jojo]

For Super 530D public figures states:

- 270kg

- warhead : 30kg

- max launch range 50km/ 27Nm

- interception at 35km/ 19Nm

 

Top speed M4.5+

 

I don't have Magic 2 figures in mind but similar to AIM-9M.

- 89kg

- all aspect IR

[FoxHoundELite]

2000N when?

[Jarama]

For Super 530D public figures states:

- 270kg

- warhead : 30kg

- max launch range 50km/ 27Nm

- interception at 35km/ 19Nm

 

Top speed M4.5+

 

I don't have Magic 2 figures in mind but similar to AIM-9M.

- 89kg

- all aspect IR

 

Merci jojo, how does it compare to it's equivalent at the time, both soviet and US, if it has any?

 

@FoxHoundELite: Even if the 2000N are currently conducting conventional strikes over Syria and Iraq, i do think it's too highly classified as it's a Nuclear Strike vector.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Jarama

[Bacab]

Merci jojo, how does it compare to it's equivalent at the time, both soviet and US, if it has any?

 

@FoxHoundELite: Even if the 2000N are currently conducting conventional strikes over Syria and Iraq, i do think it's too highly classified as it's a Nuclear Strike vector.

Before you ask, the 2000D might be in the same situation since its weapon/navigation system is derived from the N version.

[dartuil]

2000N when?

 

 

The real one :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ-0rEvlTIY

[Corsair]

Merci jojo, how does it compare to it's equivalent at the time, both soviet and US, if it has any?

 

Counterparts are R-73 & AIM-9M. Heard various comments stating the MAG II was superior to the 9M, especially thanks to its seeker, but no details (and you won't find much more).

 

Before you ask, the 2000D might be in the same situation since its weapon/navigation system is derived from the N version.

Derived, at the beginning of the development. Many elements of the SNA are deeply different, if not completely new.

[Jarama]

Counterparts are R-73 & AIM-9M. Heard various comments stating the MAG II was superior to the 9M, especially thanks to its seeker, but no details (and you won't find much more).

 

Thank you, hopefuly we'll be able to test that soon.

 

The recent M-2000C Q&A mentioned Matra FFR as available weapons at release. What are those? Is it the Durandal anti runway penetration bomb? And if so, how is it different to BLG-66?

 

Cheers,

Jara