Excited about Sabre but will only buy if authentic theater is provided

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

well i can understand the OP's attitude, and i think its also ok to express so.

i myself will buy the F86 even without a proper map or oponent(AI mig doesnt count for me), because i like this plane, and some online F86vsF86 duels are certainly fun.

[outlawal2]

At the end of the day we all have our own reasons for simming and opinions on what is required to make us happy.. Many folks love blowing things up and theatres and trainers and anything else be damned.. Some fly all of these planes / helicopters and never fire a shot... Point is that for the OP, immersion is king and lack of a viable theatre is an immersion killer.. FOR HIM We can all debate the relative merits of this point of view and how it relates to OURSELVES, but we should do so respectfully because our responses are simply opinions as well... My personal opinion is that ED has waited too long to release a new theatre and yes in my opinion it is indeed an immersion to killer to a point... But I also recognize the box they are in at the moment with EDGE.. It makes ZERO sense to release a new map using the old renderer.. Period. And they can't release a new map until EDGE is ready... CLEARLY, they miscalculated the difficulty of creating EDGE and unfortunately all we can do is wait for it at this point. (And that is no slam on ED either, stuff happens and these things are extremely complicated.) It will be completed.. And I think it will be excellent... But no idea when it will be ready for prime time..

 

I also believe that new maps will come once EDGE is released and the tools released to 3rd parties .. I REALLY hope that some 3rd party picks up the torch and works exclusively on theatre maps and possibly a dynamic campaign... Both of those would ramp up the immersion ten-fold..

 

To the OP I hear ya and agree whoeheartedly, but I will be purchasing the Sabre day one anyway as it will undoubtedly be a great module..

[Aginor]

At the end of the day we all have our own reasons for simming and opinions on what is required to make us happy.. Many folks love blowing things up and theatres and trainers and anything else be damned.. Some fly all of these planes / helicopters and never fire a shot... Point is that for the OP, immersion is king and lack of a viable theatre is an immersion killer.. FOR HIM We can all debate the relative merits of this point of view and how it relates to OURSELVES, but we should do so respectfully because our responses are simply opinions as well... My personal opinion is that ED has waited too long to release a new theatre and yes in my opinion it is indeed an immersion to killer to a point... But I also recognize the box they are in at the moment with EDGE.. It makes ZERO sense to release a new map using the old renderer.. Period. And they can't release a new map until EDGE is ready... CLEARLY, they miscalculated the difficulty of creating EDGE and unfortunately all we can do is wait for it at this point. (And that is no slam on ED either, stuff happens and these things are extremely complicated.) It will be completed.. And I think it will be excellent... But no idea when it will be ready for prime time..

 

I also believe that new maps will come once EDGE is released and the tools released to 3rd parties .. I REALLY hope that some 3rd party picks up the torch and works exclusively on theatre maps and possibly a dynamic campaign... Both of those would ramp up the immersion ten-fold..

 

To the OP I hear ya and agree whoeheartedly, but I will be purchasing the Sabre day one anyway as it will undoubtedly be a great module..

 

Well said, Sir, I agree.

[Davee]

As much as I would like an authentic theatre in which the Sabre engaged in combat (Korea), I will enjoy my time learning to fly it as realistically as possible and live the dreams I had as a boy watching them.

 

I've walked the flight line as a boy, tiptoed up and looked into the intake, sat in the cockpit many times and later watched ground crews calibrate the guns in live fire.

 

So, everyone has a different reason to buy it right away or hold off and I respect each persons right to express it (with tolerance to tone).

 

Cheers

 

ps. I recall the sound of many fly-byes and the demo vid is pretty darn close.

[Bahger]

On reflection, I was wrong to state that my purchase of the Sabre would be conditional upon the availability of an appropriate theater as this appears to be holding Belsimtek to ransom when the issue is not under their control.

 

If the "study sim" aspect of all of the deeply modeled DCS platforms were the only consideration, or promise, involved in this product, then the theater issue would be moot. However, DCS has a very capable mission editor and even a battlefield command module which demonstrate the engine's capacity for very detailed scenario design. However, for scenarios to have any real depth or atmosphere, the infrastructure of combat is needed, which, in the case of the Sabre, must include such things as contemporary air defense equipment, radars, ground vehicles, etc., so that the user can feel he is flying missions rather than test-flights. All sims and games, however sophisticated, require the player to accept some level of abstraction but for many of us, flying a Sabre or a Mustang in a historical vacuum is an abstraction too far.

 

DCS is doing great work in commissioning these high-fidelity simulations of individual aircraft but in addition to supporting them with my dollars in the hope that they will finally manage to build appropriate theaters for these aircraft -- and replace an ancient map in the process -- I feel perfectly entitled to question their business plan because it all seems very piecemeal. Third parties now appear to be responsible for most of the aircraft simulation while DCS attempts to broaden its income stream by supplying sim-lite platforms. Nothing wrong with that but if the burden on aircraft simulation development can be successfully shifted to licensees such as those responsible for the Sabre, the Huey and the Hawk, it is not unreasonable, nor is it wrong, to wonder why the company appears incapable of delivering much-needed new theaters and terrain in anything approaching a timely manner. I'm sorry, but there is more than sufficient justification for committed suporters/customers such as myself to question the efficiency of their business model here, even while admiring their aspirations.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Bahger

[NineLine]

I am not sure you are seeing the big picture here. The are rebuilding the sim while we are allowed to continue to use it. There are many things going on that will make this sim flourish into the future, but we are at a phase where patience is needed. This goes for the aircraft that ED does, and my comments are directed at the F/A-18C... I would image the timeline for that aircraft is right around 5 years, and we are somewhere past mid way I would imagine (I have no inside info on it, its just an assumption based on things we publicly know). We want nothing less than A-10C quality, we have to accept A-10C timeline.

 

It should be looked at as a plus that we have 3rd parties working on content for DCS World while ED builds the foundation of the sim for the future. I think we are very close to a huge turning point for DCS World, we all just need to hold on a little longer.

 

 

DCS is doing great work in commissioning these high-fidelity simulations if individual aircraft but in addition to supporting them with my dollars in the hope that they will finally manage to build appropriate theaters for these aircraft -- and replace an ancient map in the process -- I feel perfectly entitled to question their business plan here because it all seems very piecemeal. Third parties seem to be responsible for most of the aircraft simulation while DCS attempts to broaden its income stream by supplying sim-lite platforms. Nothing wrong with that but if the burden on aircraft simulation development can be successfully shifted to licensees such as those responsible for the Sabre, the Huey and the Hawk, it is not unreasonable, not is it wrong, to wonder why the company appears incapable of delivering much-needed new theaters and terrain in anything approaching a timely manner. I'm sorry, but there is more than sufficient justification for committed suporters/customers such as myself to question the efficiency of their business model here, even while admiring their aspirations.

[Bahger]

Points well made, Sith, I am holding on. I am not active in mission design any more, however.

[Scoggs]

Not sure if posted but there is a glimmer of hope. Read the last entry of the youtube video description. Also picture provided.

http://imgur.com/MbdSxpL

 

It doesn't say that in the forum description so hopefully a freudian slip?

[NineLine]

Not sure if posted but there is a glimmer of hope. Read the last entry of the youtube video description. Also picture provided.

http://imgur.com/MbdSxpL

 

It doesn't say that in the forum description so hopefully a freudian slip?

 

It was edited out because there is no Korean map in the works right now and people mistook that to mean that one was.

[Scoggs]

It was edited out because there is no Korean map in the works right now and people mistook that to mean that one was.

 

Oh ok. Maybe talk to whoever is in charge of the youtube channel to get it removed. I also took it as a Korea map was in the works.

[Bahger]

Oh ok. Maybe talk to whoever is in charge of the youtube channel to get it removed. I also took it as a Korea map was in the works.

Me too. The text in the press release quoted in DCS's Facebook post announcing the F-86 made me believe there would be a Korea theater.

[NineLine]

Should be fixed now, but if you really read it, it says nothing about a new map being created, its wishful thinking trying to will it :)

[SAM77]

I did not think I would buy P51 but I eventually did in anticipation of the FW190 being released early 2014. So much for that!!!

 

Knowing there won't be a flyable Mig opponent until 2016 hurts but it will pass and I'll probably do the same again.

 

Waiting for a sale :)

[fastfreddie]

I did not think I would buy P51 but I eventually did in anticipation of the FW190 being released early 2014. So much for that!!!

 

Knowing there won't be a flyable Mig opponent until 2016 hurts but it will pass and I'll probably do the same again.

 

Waiting for a sale :)

 

Sort of the reason the F86 won't be a day one buy for me. If a Mig15 was being released at the same time I probably would but otherwise its Steam sale I wait for.

 

As for the OP I sort of agree but not totally on just the map. Its more of a wait and see plane for me because I bought the P51 awhile back and fighting AI FW190 or other P51s is getting alittle old. I have the feeling that the same will be for the F86.

 

Now the Korea map would be great addition period for DCS because it could as easy translate to current/future DCS products from the Korean war to present. Who wouldn't want to fly their A10C in strikes over North Korea or play some kind of improved ground forces there?

[Iberian]

F-86 operated in every continent, not just Korea. If the map is Korea or Caucasus I don't care, I just love to fly.

The community should be more grateful for the things the developers take their time to provide for us, instead of complaining and demanding something else. If you want something else...you go take part in the developer teams or make it yourself. I mostly see "ME ME I WANT THIS I WANT THAT" and not that many "Thanks for this! I will enjoy it".

As for myself I am happy with whatever the developers throw out direction.

 

CAS units beware, I will come for you in the F-86! :P So thanks for the F-86! Looking forward to it!

[FraserNZL]

F-86 operated in every continent, not just Korea. If the map is Korea or Caucasus I don't care, I just love to fly.

The community should be more grateful for the things the developers take their time to provide for us, instead of complaining and demanding something else. If you want something else...you go take part in the developer teams or make it yourself. I mostly see "ME ME I WANT THIS I WANT THAT" and not that many "Thanks for this! I will enjoy it".

As for myself I am happy with whatever the developers throw out direction.

 

CAS units beware, I will come for you in the F-86! :P So thanks for the F-86! Looking forward to it!

 

^+A Million!!! If we were to get a Mig 15 with this then they would be wanting a B-29 to shoot at. Im new to DCS but I can and will love everything we get on this game regardless of what it

does or does not come with or how long it takes and everything will be day 1 buy for me simply because i can afford it and I dont earn much but I do have a DCS account in my bank that I drip feed into lol :D

[johnv2pt0]

I'm not being intolerant here. I have bought many, many DCS products and have been deeply involved in A-10C from Beta, as both a user and mission designer. However, having owned DCS/ED products since Lock On, I have to ask: how long can they possibly expect us to put up with no new theaters? I am so tired of the ancient Russian/Georgian theater as used from Lock On onwards -- what's that, 12 years? -- and so baffled by the five-year delay in completing the Nevada map (originally offered as a free add-on for Beta purchasers of A-10C) that, in spite of my admiration for DCS's values and standards in high-fidelity simulation of combat aircraft, I have been on a long hiatus that is unlikely to end until they provide a new map. The F-86 fought in Korea, as you all know; it's just too much of an immersion-breaker for me to have to fly the sim over Russia.

 

I would imagine that the third-party developers of the F-86 must be frustrated by this, too. A good simulation of that aircraft and the conditions in which it was deployed ought to include a new theater map. I find the press release a bit disingenuous, I'm afraid, because although it notes that the Sabre was famous for fighting over Korea, it fails to mention that no Korea map will be available. This leads me to assume that we will have to operate this aircraft over the same desperately tired and in this case inauthentic terrain. I am not trying to sound irritable here, as DCS and its partners are the best, possibly the only, makers of high-fidelity combat aircraft sims for the PC but much as I want to dive into the Sabre, it's a no-buy for me until I get at least an ETA for new, appropriate and fresh theaters.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment about the terrain. I think we all understand the difficulty in developing a new graphics engine, but after so long it's only natural to wonder to what lengths they're going to to finish it. Just saying "sit down, shut up, and bow to the ED gods" doesn't do much except aggravate the natives. The Georgia map is extremely tired. I don't have an issue with the geographic location as much as how it's never even been finished. Tons of space that's never been modeled, unoptimized objects that destroy fps, terrible airfield environments, etc.

 

I don't agree with boycotting a third party developer's product because of something they don't have any control over though. Supporting their efforts can only help keep the sim alive and thriving. I will definitely be buying the Sabre on release. I'm excited for EDGE and hope they're making good progress on it.

 

On a side note, I really hope they will address ATC as well though. This sim is awesome at detailed aircraft, but everything else is pretty lacking when looking at the entirety of flying IRL.

[Sceptre]

The only problem I have with the Black Sea map is that Vaziani turns my game into a slideshow even with nothing on it.... it's really weird because I can run the game at 30 FPS anywhere else. Other than that, I really like the map especially with some mods like Toby's low n' slow ground textures and the Improved Highways and Villages. It looks really nice! Mods will keep me happy until EDGE.

[westr]

So will it be 2016 until the mig 15 is released just as an A.I?

[Sceptre]

No, we get the MiG as an AI as soon as the F-86 is released. What people were suggesting (but not confirming) is that we would have to wait until 2016 for a DCS: MiG-15.

[westr]

No, we get the MiG as an AI as soon as the F-86 is released. What people were suggesting (but not confirming) is that we would have to wait until 2016 for a DCS: MiG-15.

 

Ah understood. Well the F86 will be an instant purchase for me having a A.I mig 15 with it upon release.

[Darkwolf]

not that many "Thanks for this! I will enjoy it".

 

Just hang around more often and you'll notice the numerous "thanks"-thread that are spread across the forum. Well - Only thing that is above their amount is the bug report type of thread. :)

[Akatsuki]

No, we get the MiG as an AI as soon as the F-86 is released. What people were suggesting (but not confirming) is that we would have to wait until 2016 for a DCS: MiG-15.

 

Nooooooooooooooooooooo :cry:

[NineLine]

No, we get the MiG as an AI as soon as the F-86 is released. What people were suggesting (but not confirming) is that we would have to wait until 2016 for a DCS: MiG-15.

 

Who suggested that?

[SkateZilla]

I never saw any suggested dates in my notes, let alone a 2016 date..

 

These stabs at ED and 3rd Parties regarding Dev Time and Release dates are getting overly repetitive and annoying.