DCS - Basic Trainer Airplane

Hueyman · July 5, 2015

Hello,

As the tendency lately went for military trainers ( Hawk and C101 ), I was wondering myself why wouldn't we want this kind of aircraft : Single piston engined, low wing cantilever, agile and sleek airplane

In real world, before even thinking about low performance jets like the Hawk, Aviocar, Alphajet or whatever, trainees are selected then trained in this kind of airplane.

It could be high performances A/C, like the PC-21, TB-30 Epsilon, T-6 Texan II, but I named a true trainer : The Mudry Cap 10, a French designed and built little airplane, used to make the in-flight selection of Navy pilot, and give them basic skills in VFR flying, standards procedures, dead reckoning practice, aerobatics, formation flying etc etc

It's also a very popular aerobatic airplane to built the bases in this category

It may sound silly but I'm sure it would be a great commercial success, for different reasons :

- I see online so many people struggling to even taxi ( not talking about take off/landing ) on WWII beasts that the very powerful Warbirds we currently have are, that learning to handle a 180 cv friendly and straight forward little taildragger like the Cap 10 could be rewarding and very useful to deeply understand the flight principles. It brings much more pleasure to handle that supersonic fly-by-wire assisted fast movers.

- With this kind of trainers you learn to fly " watching outside ", with windshields marks materializing the different pitch attitudes for various airspeeds etc, that is the best way to correctly learn to pilot an airplane. For example on the Cap 10, everything was made to use " pre-sets parameters " that correspond a flight regime i.e : 20" MAP and 2 fingers between the horizon and the engine cowling will give you a level flight at 200 Km/h, 23" MAP and 3 fingers will give you 230 Km/h etc ...

That helps flying by " feeling " the machine, trusting pre displayed parameters and understanding what's really happening ( good thing, as this wouldn't have allowed some catastrophic accidents like the Rio Paris, where people blindly trusts electronics and ignore what's aerodynamically happening )

- Dead reckoning is one of the busiest task you can do in mid-air, with only your chronograph, your map, and the ground landmarks around you. Constantly re-reckoning everything, and adjusting your navigation regularly according to what you want to see on your map and what you actually see outside

- Also, formation flying is a science and work of art that require a lot of practice, but also a pyramidal work that must start from the basics with slow ( still 230 Km/h ) and maneuverable aircrafts, with healthy and straight forward reactions, and good cockpit visibility, the Cap 10 is perfect for that, from basic close formation, up to maneuvering ( close form in aerobatic maneuvers such the loop )

- Learning how to circulate and fly in military airspace, taking into account radio messages, military traffic etc would be on the program.

- Finally, it would be a relatively fast project to manage, with 1 or 2 persons, to bring it up to DCS standards, and could also bring a great fun factor and good sightseeing platform to explore the two new incoming maps.

Let the poll begin !

Cheers,

Hueyman

Kelevra9987 · July 5, 2015

Short and Simple +1

PiedDroit · July 5, 2015

You may be interested in this thread: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=144722

Not everything applies but there are similarities.

Trainers and/or recon are cool (all aircraft are cool, because they can fly and that's awesome) but in my personal case that's not what I'm looking for in DCS.

Gorilla · July 5, 2015

Wow. Very detailed and well presented Hueyman.

Griffon26 · July 5, 2015

Nice threat Hueyman and well explained :thumbup:

But I just say NO, im not a super pilot and I love to fly slow planes in all simulators but I dont think that I will fly this kind of plane in the Caukasus, NTTR or SoH, map. Its not a DCS plane in my opinion. They should going on with Combat Gear and Jet trainers who can also carry any kind of Weapon.

Thats my opinion - btw if you wanna learn by such trainers you can fly MS Flightsimulator first than go to DCS modules like hawk and than fly your F15/A10 :P

Regards

Buznee · July 5, 2015

As long as it's a tail dragger I'm all for it. What about a J-3 cub or the Cessna 0-1? Both had military purpose and are great trainers.

Hueyman · July 5, 2015

No problem guys, as long as it's constructive and justified then it's good for the sim I think.

Just said it was part of a real world pilot career and I thought DCS users were hardcore simmers and so eager to practice as close to real as possible. No army will let you handle a F-15 from day one obviously.

But once again I understand your points, and depending on what we're looking for in this sim, this kind of " GA " planes can be annoying yes...

Still I hope to see it one day, or another, as well as big brothers like the C-130, Tu-95 and such big turboprops

Sabre-TLA · July 5, 2015

T-6 Texan II would be more appropriate as a prop trainer.

Actually used by the USAF for Basic Pilot Training and by the US Navy for Primary and Intermediate Joint Naval Flight Officer (NFO) and Air Force Combat Systems Officer (CSO) training.

The Canadian Forces use a CT-156 Harvard II.

McBlemmen · July 5, 2015

Do you think having a biased poll like that will stop people from voting no?

Sierra99 · July 5, 2015

Here's the thing...I can fly something like that...

I can go to the local airport just about any weekend I choose, plop down down some money and the local flying school will take me up and try to convince me to start taking flying lessons.

What I can't drive over to the local Air Force base, hand them some money and go for a ride in an A-10. What I can't do is drop bombs on a building. What I can't do is respawn after I crash into the side of a mountain because I broke off a wing in a dive.

We have trainers in real life because crashing over and over again just isn't feasible or allowed.

In my opinion spending the time and money to develop something that basic for a sim is a waste of effort unless it is the basis for bigger and better. (Think BD-5)

Simply put, Flying something like that in a sim...would be like watching grass grow.

Nevyn · July 5, 2015

Yeah thats a pretty good idea OP, the tail draggers are difficult to learn and frustrating, I reckon if we had a trainer for them it may go a little easier, although it's a bit late for me now though.

I like the T-6 idea, that makes a lot of sense too, the pilot of the Old Crow Mustang trained in a T-6 if I remember correctly.

Deano87 · July 6, 2015

I would really like to see a Yak 52 as a Russian trainer.

I have access to one... and some 3D modelling skills... :music_whistling:

blackbelter · July 6, 2015

The options are biased... People who don't need a trainer must think themselves as super pilots? When playing DCS, people must learn flying basics in trainers?

I didn't vote, for obvious reasons.

If I were to vote, I would say no. What DCS needs is not a trainer aircraft, but a set of tactical/manoeuvre training missions that go beyond button pressing and simple shooting.

Edited July 6, 2015 by blackbelter

wolle · July 6, 2015

I think a basic trainer would be nice, but only if DCS would come with realistic ATC communications/controllers, charts, flight lesson campaign, etc...

PiedDroit · July 6, 2015

The options are biased... People who don't need a trainer must think themselves as super pilots? When playing DCS, people must learn flying basics in trainers?

I didn't vote, for obvious reasons.

If I were to vote, I would say no. What DCS needs is not a trainer aircraft, but a set of tactical/manoeuvre training missions that go beyond button pressing and simple shooting.

Agreed... In DCS, basically every aircraft is a trainer, one can learn the ropes in any aircraft without cost or risk involved.

I don't have a need for a dedicated aircraft for that purpose (no nostalgia factor and/or excessive realism here).

What's needed however is an environment and missions suited to each aircraft.

Between a swarm of trainers and a single aircraft (which is not only a trainer) with a really well done training and campaign, I chose the latter without a blink.

Edited July 6, 2015 by PiedDroit

SilentGun · July 6, 2015

can you put missiles on it?

kolga · July 6, 2015

I would really like to see a Yak 52 as a Russian trainer.

I have access to one... and some 3D modelling skills... :music_whistling:

DO IT! I COMMAND YOU! ;)

billeinstein · July 6, 2015

I like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanchang_CJ-6

Ktulu2 · July 6, 2015

I can't speek for WW2 fans, but I see no point in having such a plane in a combat environnement...In real life, as many said, you die, but here you respawn.Taxiing and that kind of stuff was never a problem for me. Sure, at first, moving the TGP while moving the plane was hard for the first hour, but that's it.

I already wonder why we need a jet trainer...we have 3 or 4( I think?) in development. What do you do in theses planes? Fly in formation...but F15s can do that to. Bomb stuff? A-10 can do that... The ONLY reason I could see myself flying those would be to humiliate someone like the A-10s A2A kills (this is obviously very personal, and I get that for some people they like theses trainers like they dream about fighter jets, but not me)

So what will I say if they bring yet another trainer, but this time a civil one? Work on the god damn F-18 and edge already.

As for new comers that never touched a stick before, I guess I could see the point, but only as a SFM and not ASM and cheap (so more like a mod) SO that after one week of grass mowing they know how to turn and can start handling big boys.

Sleuth · July 6, 2015

I think (especially with the NTTR map) there is a place for the basic trainers.

While I might consider this one - I would certainly buy a de Havilland DHC-1 Chipmunk T mk10 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Canada_DHC-1_Chipmunk). I flew one when I was an Air Cadet a few times.

However it would be for me more a trip down memory lane, rather than having it for the learning experience. (Though having a collection of Primary Trainer to Super Jet Fighter would make a collection complete.)

ratherbegliding · July 6, 2015

G'day!

+1 for the T-6 suggestion.

Whatever the airframe though, it NEEDS to have EFM/PFM and ASM - none of the half-baked, glorified MOD approach mentioned somewhere above.

Another reason for doing something like this is that I could buy my way onto a flight in, say, a T-6 - but before doing it for real I'd want to learn the cockpit layout, start up procedures, systems etc etc....

That's why I'll be buying DCS Albatross when it comes out :D

RBG

Mrgud · July 6, 2015

Do you think having a biased poll like that will stop people from voting no?

I absolutely agree with this question.

I didn't vote but you really did good presentation of your opinion Hueyman.

Erdem · July 6, 2015

These kinds of planes in DCS seem very pointless to me. Unlike real life, there are no costs associated with training people with the very planes they will fly. No risk of loss of aircraft or the crew, no fuel costs, no need to make extra aircraft for training purposes. In simulations it's perfectly fine to jump into the plane you want to learn and simply learn it. You don't need to "ease into it" like the IRL.

If you're into these kinds of things, there's always FSX.

Rogue Trooper · July 6, 2015

Yes and it should be a full AFM/EFM.

But I think the campaign that comes with the module must be top notch and dedicated to training; navigation, proper ATC coms training (DCS II), taxiing within busy airports with high traffic flow, how to read airport holding patterns and going into holding patterns, etc...

Basically the trainer aircraft should have a highly detailed flight training campaign that exists in a constantly busy air traffic environment.

Yep I would buy something like this.... once.

Eros · July 6, 2015

Yes and it should be a full AFM/EFM.
But I think the campaign that comes with the module must be top notch and dedicated to training; navigation, proper ATC coms training (DCS II), taxiing within busy airports with high traffic flow, how to read airport holding patterns and going into holding patterns, etc...
Basically the trainer aircraft should have a highly detailed flight training campaign that exists in a constantly busy air traffic environment.
Yep I would buy something like this.... once.

+1

But i'd like a Cessna

To all of those not liking it unless it carries bombs:

Why would you like to block your favorite sim from having more aircraft (like GA)

which will attract with proper environment more people in it like FSX flyers?

Yes, DCS is a combat simulator but most of all, it's a simulator unlike any other in physics.

Why would you not want it to expand? Will this block your favorite aircraft?

I think not since we have 3rd party developers doing it already (like Razbam's T-6 Texan II)

Edited July 6, 2015 by Eros

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DCS - Basic Trainer Airplane