Viggen vs MiG-21

[theOden]

Mirage 2000 is made by Razbam Simulations, not Leatherneck Simulations.

 

I read his comment as "ok for the 21"

[mattebubben]

I prefer viggen vs M2000.

But ok as they are both from LN.

 

if it was the Fighter viggen yes.

 

But the Attack Viggen is a 19-70s design and enterd service the same time as the Mig-21Bis variant.

 

With the AJS-37 just being a slight upgrade weapons wise.

 

So comparing the mig-21bis vs the Attack viggen they can be compared air-air wise but you cant compare the late 1980s Mirage 2000 with a 1970s strike aircraft.

[adamski66]

the mig has to find the viggen first... flying 20m agl quite fast

[Sleksa]

comparatively in a/g the MiG and Vig seem to be quite similiar in the ground pounding within DCS.

 

Viggen can theoretically carry a lot more ordnance on more pylons, but practically this would mean losing the countermeasure pods on the pylons as well as making the range and speed of it much worse. Viggen also comes with the maverick and and the Rb05 missile which seem to be pretty much on the level of the KH-66, with maybe a slight advantage in the precision going for the maverick.

 

As far as the dumber weapons go, both seem to be able to carry quite a lot of them in several different forms. Unsure if Viggen will come with cluster bombs or bigger bombs that the MiG can haul, but rocket/cannon wise they seem pretty much the same.

 

The real difference between them seems to come from the upgraded weaponry of the AJS upgrade if the bomb dispensers/anti ship missiles are made available in DCS, as well as the possible a/g radar modes.

 

It would certainly be interesting to watch the 104'th like servers once this bird is released, with either side lobbing glide bombs at eachother's defences and airfields.

[mattebubben]

You cant really compare an Interceptor with a Strike aircraft when it comes to air-ground...

 

First the maverick is way more effective then the KH-66.

 

Its Fire and forget for one.

 

Second you can use its seeker to get a far better view over the target area (using the VID that displays the view from the seeker of the AGM-65)

 

The AGM-65 on the viggen will be very similar in function to that of the A-10A (even though it will use a earlier version of the Maverick)

 

The RB-05A is closer to the KH-66 but uses a different mechanism for guidance that allows the viggen to take more evasive actions even though it might take training to get high accuracy with the RB-05A.

 

And while they both have rockets those rockets are very much different.

 

The Mig-21 has either pods of 57mm rockets or a 240mm rocket per pylon

And the 240mm rockets can only be fired 2 at a time.

 

While the Viggen uses 135mm rockets with 6 rockets per rocket pod (with up to 4 pods)

 

but the REAL difference together with all the guided weapons (Maverick and antiship missiles)

is that the Viggen has a hud a air-ground radar and computers to calculate impact points making any of the viggens munitions far more more accurate then what can be easily be achived with the mig-21.

 

The Air-Ground capabillity of the Mig-21Bis is nowhere near that of the AJ/AJS-37 Viggens...

Edited December 10, 2015 by mattebubben

[WinterH]

Biggest difference may be BK 90 if we will get it. Also, obviously the anti-ship missiles.

 

I wonder if AJS will have a toss bombing mode. Although it would be an obsolete tool if BK 90 is available, it can still be interesting to toss those 120 kg bombs with some targeting aid.

 

On one hand, Maverick is quite significantly superiour to Kh-66, being fire and forget, and also a poor man's targeting pod of sorts. However, especially in the early versions, Seeker had very short locking distance, and it had no image stabilization, and well as no zooming ability for video. I wonder if we'll get this types of Mavericks, or will the upgraded AJS be able to use a later modification.

 

All said though, payload, weapons themsevles, and sensors etc, all considered, Viggen, especially the AJS Viggen is simply much, much better ground attacker than the old MiG, obviously.

[Darkwolf]

Excuse meeeee.

 

 

Can the viggen drop RN24 ?

 

Ok. We are done here :D

 

 

[just kidding :D ]

 

 

 

Mig-21 will eat Viggen. All the statistics just does not matter when a R3-R is launched at you. Obviously, Viggen may bite back really badly with the sidewinders but unless R3-R is downgraded, most chances are Viggen will be deadmeat.

 

Ground attack wise... well... Mig-21 is obviously outperformed. S-24A carry a lot of punch and one of those can blast a motor or BTR whole company - but even a BTR-80 is enough threat to avoid the 21 to go low.

 

Against tanks, they is not even any comparison possible :D

[RoflSeal]

It is hard to lock anything with R-3R when it isn't above you.

[Dahlbeck]

Actually, I recall the AJ was designed with nuclear weapons delivery in mind, back before the Swedish nuclear programme was abandoned.

[MBot]

All said though, payload, weapons themsevles, and sensors etc, all considered, Viggen, especially the AJS Viggen is simply much, much better ground attacker than the old MiG, obviously.

 

All good points. In addition, and most significantly for an attack aircraft, the Viggen has an integrated navigation system that allows it to follow waypoints and find it's target. The MiG-21 on the other hand relies on manual map reading by the pilot (unless it is attacking a friendly RSBN station).

[dartuil]

Mirage 2000 is made by Razbam Simulations, not Leatherneck Simulations.

 

No wrong way to say my sentence I meant viggen and mig21 are from LN.

Sorry.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

It is hard to lock anything with R-3R when it isn't above you.

 

And the Fishbed doesn't really have much of a search radar.

 

I'm still waiting for a source on the 80% pK he's cited.

[TomCatMucDe]

And the Fishbed doesn't really have much of a search radar.

 

I'm still waiting for a source on the 80% pK he's cited.

 

i fly in the same Squadron as Darkwolf, his 80% wasnt based on written statistics from LNS but from eperience.

 

Once you have a lock that isnt broken by ground clutten and you shoot within the missile lunch zone, it hardly misses the target.

 

It is not realistic if you ask me, but that s the way it is in DCS today.

[mattebubben]

Excuse meeeee.

 

 

Can the viggen drop RN24 ?

 

Ok. We are done here :D

 

 

[just kidding :D ]

 

 

 

Mig-21 will eat Viggen. All the statistics just does not matter when a R3-R is launched at you. Obviously, Viggen may bite back really badly with the sidewinders but unless R3-R is downgraded, most chances are Viggen will be deadmeat.

 

Ground attack wise... well... Mig-21 is obviously outperformed. S-24A carry a lot of punch and one of those can blast a motor or BTR whole company - but even a BTR-80 is enough threat to avoid the 21 to go low.

 

Against tanks, they is not even any comparison possible :D

 

 

 

how likley is a Mig-21 to be able to radarlock a Viggen going mach one at tree top level though?

 

And its one thing with a head on engagement but since a AJS-37 is a strike aircraft it would avoid fighters even mig-21s most of the time.

 

And its also the fact that the Viggens radar can direct the Seekers in ordet to tell them where to look making them much easier to get solid locks with then the Mig-21s IR missiles.

 

And since the R-3R is not working as it should my guess and hope is it will be "fixed".

 

But a Viggen flying at low level would be a hard target for a mig-21 to lock up.

 

So basicly in a AJS-37 if you get a target lock on you (and its not dogfight range yet) trop to tree top level and go full afterburner.

 

Yes While with the current State of the R-3R the Mig-21Bis will have an advantage in head on egagements even against modern All aspect IR missiles that is something that is likley to change and that should change.

 

As a mig-21 pilot a mistake i find that has helped me with many kills online is that instead of exploting the weakness of the mig-21s radar and go low they either go vertical or get turning wich gives the mig-21 a chance.

 

So flying a Strike Viggen like it was supposed to with Flight altitudes between 10-100m above ground the Mig-21Bis will have a hard time getting a solid radar lock.

 

And if you happen to carry All Aspect Aim-9s you can use that to close headon at treetop altitude and then slam a heater into his forehead where as he cant get a Good lock on you for a R-3R and he has no all aspect IR missiles.

 

And if you dont have the All aspect 9s but just the Aim-9J/P you can use the low alt to force a merge where you can have an advantage with better manuverabillity and the fact that u can get a good tone on him easier then he can on you due to the abillity to guide the seeker towards the target using ur radar instead of having to line up the missile itself right on target.

 

So i think even with the R-3R as it is now the AJS-37 will have no problem comming out ontop if the pilot uses his strenghts and the weaknesses of an enemy to his advantage.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

i fly in the same Squadron as Darkwolf, his 80% wasnt based on written statistics from LNS but from eperience.

 

Once you have a lock that isnt broken by ground clutten and you shoot within the missile lunch zone, it hardly misses the target.

 

It is not realistic if you ask me, but that s the way it is in DCS today.

 

Okay, thanks for the clarification! :thumbup:

[Sleksa]

You cant really compare an Interceptor with a Strike aircraft when it comes to air-ground...

 

First the maverick is way more effective then the KH-66.

 

Its Fire and forget for one.

 

Second you can use its seeker to get a far better view over the target area (using the VID that displays the view from the seeker of the AGM-65)

 

The AGM-65 on the viggen will be very similar in function to that of the A-10A (even though it will use a earlier version of the Maverick)

 

Interesting. I thought the way the version of mavericks Swedes bought was used, was that it was aimed through the periscope-like thingie on the right side of Viggen's hud while listening to lock-on tone from helmet. But if it can display the maverick seeker's picture on the round radar screen, it sounds quite nifty.

 

All good points. In addition, and most significantly for an attack aircraft, the Viggen has an integrated navigation system that allows it to follow waypoints and find it's target. The MiG-21 on the other hand relies on manual map reading by the pilot (unless it is attacking a friendly RSBN station).

 

Where is this displayed? I thought the AJ- and AJS versions didn't have those display screens that the JA-Viggen did?

Edited December 10, 2015 by Sleksa

[BaconSarnie]

[ame]http://saab.com/globalassets/commercial/air/avionics-systems/aviguide-helicopter/saabs-history-hud.pdf[/ame]

Some basic info on the Maverick display

[mattebubben]

Interesting. I thought the way the version of mavericks Swedes bought was used, was that it was aimed through the periscope-like thingie on the right side of Viggen's hud while listening to lock-on tone from helmet. But if it can display the maverick seeker's picture on the round radar screen, it sounds quite nifty.

 

 

 

Where is this displayed? I thought the AJ- and AJS versions didn't have those display screens that the JA-Viggen did?

 

That round periscope-like thingie is the Display for the Maverick... ^^

 

Read the info page posted in the comment above this one.

 

And the Navigation info are most likley on the hud/compass since the AJ/AJS dosent have MFDs.

Edited December 10, 2015 by mattebubben

[renhanxue]

The JA 37 has a full tactical map screen where you can see your own aircraft, friendly aircraft, enemy aircraft, various navigational markers etc. The AJ and AJS 37 do not have this, but it does have an inertial navigation system with waypoint support. Course, altitude, distance to destination etc can be shown both on the head-down radar display and on the HUD.

 

The head-down radar display has at least two display modes: one is a traditional B-scope for A2A work, and the other is a "sector PPI" for A2G.

[Simon81]

In cold war era my uncle was serving in on of the Polish northern AFB (Zegrze Pomorskie) he flew also on Mig-21 BIS and as he told there was quite often that Swedens were flying close to Polish borders and polish fighters were took off to the sky to chase away Viggens. He was talkin about swedish planes and pilots with respect but without fear, so I think these 2 constructions (Mig-21bis and Viggen) are likely to compare without any superiority of one side.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Simon81

[Hadwell]

as far as missiles are concerned, the aim-9L is in an entirely different league from the r-13m1 (aim-9J/G mix), but since a mig and viggen would only ever meet wvr, I bet they are pretty damn close in a fight, good match up.

from what I read... they both have nearly the same range, climb rate, and top speed, but the viggen is way heavier and has a more powerful engine, so I suspect the viggen will keep its energy longer, and accelerate slower.

 

edit: mig-21 with drop tanks, viggen clean, same range...

Edited December 14, 2015 by Hadwell

[mattebubben]

In cold war era my uncle was serving in on of the Polish northern AFB (Zegrze Pomorskie) he flew also on Mig-21 BIS and as he told there was quite often that Swedens were flying close to Polish borders and polish fighters were took off to the sky to chase away Viggens. He was talkin about swedish planes and pilots with respect but without fear, so I think these 2 constructions (Mig-21bis and Viggen) are likely to compare without any superiority of one side.

 

First all honor to ur Uncle .

 

But that he was confident in his aircraft does not mean they were equal.

 

First its the fact that during the cold war both sides did not fully know the capabilities of the aircraft of the other side.

 

And second its that even if they had the information they did not always give all the info to their pilots.

 

Any Airforce wants their Pilots to be confident in their aircraft and their capabilities since a pilot that goes into battle knowing he is outmatched is already beaten and might not be as agressive as somone who thinks his on even ground.

 

And also as mentioned the Attack Viggen (AJ/AJS 37 and SH/AJSH 37)

 

are far less advanced then the Fighter viggen (JA 37)

 

And while the Mig-21Bis is a danger to a AJ-37 (with the Viggen having a slight edge due to avionics and having superior manuverabillity / a more powerfull engine)

 

the JA-37 is a whole Other story.

 

The Ja-37 Is more comparable to a Mig-29 then it is a Mig-21Bis.

 

And im in no way calling youre uncle a liar im just saying that just because he was not afraid of the viggen is not because the Mig-21 was comparable it was more because Combat Pilots (good combat pilots) are trained not to be afraid of whatever enemy they come across.

 

And im Sure youre Uncle would not have been afraid to go up against a F-16 or a F-15 either since thats the way they where trained and all the honor to him and his fellow pilots.

 

But that does not mean that his airplane was comparable or that he would have had a great chance against an equally competant F-15 or F-16 pilot (Or JA-37 Pilot )

 

And also do you know during what Time period youre Uncle was active as a combat pilot? =)

 

I too know a Fighter Pilot active during the cold war (86-96) flying a JA-37 viggen out of southern sweden.

 

Who knows maby him and youre uncle faced eachother at some point ^^

 

And also did youre uncle every fly any more advanced Jet fighters then the Mig-21? Like the Mig-23, Mig-29 or F-16.

 

And if so ask him after having flown those aircraft how he would feel going up against one of those fighters in a Mig-21 and if he would still do it without hesitation or fear knowing the capabillities of the enemy aircraft and its superiority.

Edited December 14, 2015 by mattebubben

[emg]

And while the Mig-21Bis is a danger to a AJ-37 (with the Viggen having a slight edge due to avionics and having superior manuverabillity / a more powerfull engine)

I'm not so sure the bolded part is the general consensus? And at least the MiG-21bis can carry chaff/flares without a draggy dispenser.

Edited December 15, 2015 by emg

[chev255]

I'm not so sure the bolded part is the general consensus? And at least the MiG-21bis can carry chaff/flares without a draggy dispenser.

Unless my memory fails me it's actually quite the opposite

1- the M2000 carries chaff/flare without an additional dispenser

2- the option of extra chaff/flare replaces the parachute so no extra drag

3- I thought actually the Mig-21 is the one that needs a pod for chaff/flare?

 

EDIT: forget all the above - I had my mind on the Mirage!

Edited December 15, 2015 by chev255

[Brisse]

1- the M2000 carries chaff/flare without an additional dispenser

 

This is not the Mirage-thread. This is the Viggen-thread :smartass: