How do I properly fly the P-51D?

[5tuka]

Regardles of inferiour climb and turn performence (at below cruise speed at least) I enjoy combating Bf-109s with the Mustang. It's challenging but accomplishable and if you don't hold a fight-to-the-death attitude you can almost always escape if the situation turns bad for you.

 

It's dive characteristics are very good thx to the low drag wing and good controlability at high airspeeds. Not rarely I ended up dragging a 109 into a dive chase, watch him break and after climbing again was able to catch him by suprise.

 

Not saying the P-51 is the better combat aircraft, it surely is everything but suited for the current low altitude turnfest servers. The Spitfire is probably goign to shake things up way more than the P-51 in this regard.

[Solty]

Yes Stuka, it is achievable, no doubt. But it is also is quite frustriating, and it realy requires lots of patience and internal peace and understanding for the fact that each time you have to choose between victory or staying alive. Nearly all gun runs are inefective due to DM that was already talked about.

 

After some serious pondering I came to a following conclusion. The main reasons for P-51's inadequacy in combat currently are as follow:

 

1. DM.

2. Max speed and low engine setting.

3. Lack of proper team tactics.

 

I have also came up with solutions for each of those issues.

1. ED could buff .50cal damage for the time beeing, untill we get a better Damage Model down the road, when trully realistic damage modeling is available and weapons will do true physical damage.

 

2. 72'hg :3

 

3. We need to educate the P-51 players that they should give up maneuvering fights against the 109 unless they are realy forced to. I would have to do start from myself though :P These are the most rewarding kills.

 

This standard basic tactic would be to side climb to at least 3000m and keep your speed and B&Z only. If the whole team is high, the enemy will also have to go high. But as long as people will hug the ground we will not see any real improvment :/

[NineLine]

Ok, I can accept this thread has transformed into a broader topic on the P-51 :)

 

Yes Stuka, it is achievable, no doubt. But it is also is quite frustriating, and it realy requires lots of patience and internal peace and understanding for the fact that each time you have to choose between victory or staying alive. Nearly all gun runs are inefective due to DM that was already talked about.

 

After some serious pondering I came to a following conclusion. The main reasons for P-51's inadequacy in combat currently are as follow:

 

1. DM.

2. Max speed and low engine setting.

3. Lack of proper team tactics.

 

I have also came up with solutions for each of those issues.

 

4. Practice Practice Practice, I know that pisses of some people when I say that, but its so true, this is not any other sim you have flown, you need to not only practice combat, but basic and advanced flight maneuvers... its very important, you wont jump in and be an ace, especially against some of these real life targets that do spend a lot of time honing their skills.

 

1. ED could buff .50cal damage for the time beeing, untill we get a better Damage Model down the road, when trully realistic damage modeling is available and weapons will do true physical damage.

 

No No No, I cant say no enough to this. Balancing of weapons is so un-ED, and I hope it always remains such. The issue that the German aircraft have cannons is a problem only in the sense that this is a game, and people will use stuff they might not have in real life. The AI is guilty too.. the AI uses cannons when it dogfights, and we all know the AI is a deadshot.. I am going to feature request a change for this, for the AI... not much you can do with the RL players until they have targets better suited for their cannon rounds and they wont want to waste them, but lets be honest... the gamer environment nullifies some real world situations... its a tough problem to get around.

 

DM though, it needs adjusted and fixed... no changing weapons unless the weapons are proven to be the issue. How do the 109's guns (sans cannons) compare? That's the real question.

 

2. 72'hg :3

 

I am all for any and all options those aircraft had back then, more options in ME the better. That said, Yo-Yo is very adamant that the gains will be less than people anticipate.

 

3. We need to educate the P-51 players that they should give up maneuvering fights against the 109 unless they are realy forced to. I would have to do start from myself though :P These are the most rewarding kills.

 

This standard basic tactic would be to side climb to at least 3000m and keep your speed and B&Z only. If the whole team is high, the enemy will also have to go high. But as long as people will hug the ground we will not see any real improvment :/

 

This covers my #4 as well, guys like you Solty seem to have a firm grip on the P-51, people should seek him and others out, fly with him, watch his vids, etc. Give the 109s something to sweat about ;)

[5tuka]

I can safely add overheating and prop gear damage to your list, Solty

 

Yes, I get the wish for higher boost pressure clearance (although I always stick to max continous power in combat because temps are constantly on the upper limit anyway) but it's lack - as you said - should not stop people from learning to adopt to fight the "superiour germans" by developing superiour tactics.

 

Defensive flying is a key on dogfight servers. If you got the hang of it you only have to wait for the griefy 109 to make a mistake and catch him by suprise. Kind of like flying the Lagg-3 in another sim.

 

0.50 cal damage may be unconsitent, but very effective at times. Usually I try to aim for the engine - cockpit area and a 109 without coolant or oil won't go very far.

[Racoon]

DM is one of major things to improve for us now. Not just adjustments and fixes but make it much closer to real world.

The second major thing to do is to improve AI for piston engines' fight.

[Zimmerdylan]

I have to say that I appreciate all of the response. I'm sorry if I come off as having an attitude. I really do not. I love flying DCS and am very happy with it 90% of the time.

I appreciate that people can get the plane up to 30-40K ft. in the NTTR map. And indeed, the IA P51's that I set up I'm my missions can also reach 25-30K but not without struggling to get there. When I check on them in mission, they can get down to as little as 110 mph while climbing between 15-17K. If the AI that is designed to use the plane with max efficiency has this kind of trouble, then IMO, something isn't exactly right.

It appears that there is some kind of "magic" (for lack of a better term) combination to get the plane up there. I have tried all different climb rates, prop and throttle settings, and even messed with the supercharger. The plane just drops to as little as 100 MPH and looks like it's tail is about to fall out of the sky. If I level off or start to point the nose down to gain some speed, the plane can barely recover enough speed to go any higher. I honestly wish that we could post tracks so I could figure out what's going wrong. I do know that many people I fly with on line have the same issues that I do with it. Has anyone tried to use Shadow Play? I would very much appreciate actually seeing people putting this plane through it's paces in ways that I just do not seem to be capable of doing.

For training purposes, it would be a godsend to all of us if the AI had different skill levels. I know that you can set that in the MI or whatever but we all know that it's not exactly what I mean. The distance at which you detect your adversary is much different than the skill with which you attempt to dispatch them. It would be extremely helpful if DCS had a dumba$$ level IA, an intermediate level, and an " eat you you for lunch" model. This way people could train and adapt to the opponent's advances rather than being thrust into a no win situation from day one only to be shot down time after time after time after time. How realistic that would be to do (from an FPS or practical point of view).....I don't know. But it would be nice.

One thing I have noticed as of late is that after watching videos on YouTube of guys shooting down the ME109 is that they always try and keep the 109 at a distance. They do not make the fight into a turning match and patiently keep the 109 working long outside maneuvers. On the other hand....there are very few of these videos out there as I see when I watch that many people are having the same stall and power problems that I am having. And again.....not so much in the 109.

And lastly, I agree with one of the posters who argues that the P51 was not unwieldy and difficult to handle. I have seen that argument here before and could not disagree more. When people tell me how hard the P51 was suppose to be to handle, it goes directly contrary to every interview I have seen with it's pilots during wartime. There was a red tail pilot who said that the plane would whatever you asked of it with no problems. And the 3 pilots I chatted with last week told me the same exact things. and one of them was a WWII P52 veteran.

So I am either flying this plane like a complete idiot (which is entirely possible) or my download is not the same as many of you guy's. I'm not really sure which it is at this point.

none the less, I do appreciate this conversation and am glad that you guys haven't poured tar and feathers over me for bringing it up. It just seems that the P51 has become my only real source of frustration at this point.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Zimmerdylan

[Buzzles]

Zimmerdylan, regarding you still finding it impossible to get the '51 up in the high blue stuff, what climb plan are you using?

 

You're not just taking off, nosing up and trying to climb at 2k+ FPM to 30k are you?

[MiloMorai]

Required reading

 

Long Reach VIII Fighter Command at War (Osprey Aircraft of the Aces No 31)

 

This volume focuses on the little known official Army Air Force report commissioned by the Eighth Air Force's VIII Fighter Command (FC) in May 1944. The detailed document chronicled the experiences of 24 pilots who had seen extensive service in the frontline escorting B-17s and B-24s on daylight raids deep into Germany. Briefed to provide a candid report on combat flying that could be used as a teaching 'manual' for potential fighter pilots, the VIII FC veterans openly discuss their secrets to success, and survival in the deadly skies over occupied Europe. Exactly half of those pilots who contributed to The Long Reach subsequently achieved ace status.

[Aginor]

Zimmerdylan, did you check your mixture? Verify that at no point during the mission the lever was on "emergency rich".

 

See this post, please try to do it exactly like that to reproduce.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2720999&postcount=85

 

If it is a bug we will find it. :)

[otto]

The more straightforward inference is that he was fighting humans because he was flying online. That is the point of flying online, right? ;)

 

Reflected is new to DCS, but he's a very good stick. :clap_2:

 

Thinking how crappy your plane is and having success while flying that plane are things that contradict each other in my opinion.

Hadwell in a Mig21 vs f15 .Mig 21 is better that's why he gets kills ;) .

[Reflected]

OK, so yesterday I got my ass kicked while flying the 109. This gave me hope :)

 

I realized although it's better at almost everything, it has some weak points too: At high speeds the not so good roll rate deteriorates a lot. At high speed dives it straight out freezes.

 

So I jumped in a Mustang, climbed to stage 2 supercharger altitude and started bouncing 109s. It worked up until the moment I tried to stay and boom and zoom for a couple of passes. After my 3rd zoom my 109 got the upper hand. Bad idea. Also, often the .50 cals were just like throwing peas at the 109...oh well.

 

So all in all it's very challenging and nowhere near being a balanced matchup. But one can get lucky at times.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

OK, so yesterday I got my ass kicked while flying the 109. This gave me hope :)

 

I realized although it's better at almost everything, it has some weak points too: At high speeds the not so good roll rate deteriorates a lot. At high speed dives it straight out freezes.

 

So I jumped in a Mustang, climbed to stage 2 supercharger altitude and started bouncing 109s. It worked up until the moment I tried to stay and boom and zoom for a couple of passes. After my 3rd zoom my 109 got the upper hand. Bad idea. Also, often the .50 cals were just like throwing peas at the 109...oh well.

 

So all in all it's very challenging and nowhere near being a balanced matchup. But one can get lucky at times.

 

Pretty much my feel, and, probably against more unexperienced pilots, I have had luck in low turning fight too...

[gavagai]

Also, often the .50 cals were just like throwing peas at the 109...oh well...

 

Practice more. The 109 isn't a tough target, it's just small.

 

Your goal is to hit them from the sweet spot of your gun harmonization, which means 300 meters away. When you shoot from less than 200m you often hit with only 3 guns.

 

I know you already understand the idea of convergence, but in DCS it is different than all of the sims we've flown in the past. Study this information:

 

Edited March 29, 2016 by gavagai

[Kurfürst]

Practice more. The 109 isn't a tough target, it's just small.

 

Your goal is to hit them from the sweet spot of your gun harmonization, which means 300 meters away. When you shoot from less than 200m you often hit with only 3 guns.

 

+1

 

plus that the bullets fired being dispersed all over a ca. 2 m x 2 m doesn't really help. The .50 caliber rounds are individually not so destructive as cannon shells, you either have to hit something vital with them or get a good number of hits on the same spot. The latter is difficult to consistently achieve with convergence + dispersion working against it.

[MAD-MM]

Is't most time about try and error and i miss threads where also claim about the bad FW-190, because it can not turn with the P-51 substain and is only faster currently under (3000m) when the MW50 is working properly with currenty fuel managment rather not.(defueling)

And it's possible to secure kills with FW-190? it's all about pilot skills, the BF-109 have rather something that makes more easy to fly for unexpierenced pilots that is quit a good turn rate and energy recover against that heavy P-51.

Turn fights was not the answer in WW2 in the most case, your did you think the zero did so quiet well in the Pacific against F6F Hellcat? Packard Merlin Engine was also optimized for higher altitude, when we get some later Bombers for cover think german fighters are not so happy over 7 km hight.

[Coyote Duster]

Reading your guys' response gave me more hope, just need some wingmen, and to stay fast at all times, when taking on the k4, if i can beat them in il2 1946 I can beat them here lastly, I'm not scared of the Doras one bit, no wonder they're a rarity in the ww2 servers nowadays

[Legioneod]

Reading your guys' response gave me more hope, just need some wingmen, and to stay fast at all times, when taking on the k4, if i can beat them in il2 1946 I can beat them here lastly, I'm not scared of the Doras one bit, no wonder they're a rarity in the ww2 servers nowadays

 

I'll be your wingman if you want, Just add me on steam if you use it. http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198012600268/

I'm not good at dog-fighting as I'm still learning, but I think if I have someone to fly with I'd learn faster.

[mjmorrow]

Reading your guys' response gave me more hope, just need some wingmen, and to stay fast at all times, when taking on the k4, if i can beat them in il2 1946 I can beat them here lastly, I'm not scared of the Doras one bit, no wonder they're a rarity in the ww2 servers nowadays

 

 

When I get to sim fly the Mustang, I like to do so with others. The Dogs of War crew are a bunch of really great guys. Your opponents will be great guys too, since the DOW tends to attract an easy going lot, just looking to have a great time. You ought to go over to the DOW site and introduce yourself to the crew. The next time I get a chance to spend a few hours sim flying the Mustang, I will surely join you and the rest of the guys. The Mustang isn't necessarily the best lone wolf plane, but in numbers she is a pretty terrific ride. It is also fun to chat over TS.

 

Here is the DOW site:

 

http://webfortress.com/dogsofwar/forum/

 

:thumbup: MJ

[flygav]

I have to agree with you 100%. If we can skin the abrams tank with P51 skin it would be an improvement.

[msalama]

If we can skin the abrams tank with P51 skin it would be an improvement.

It's funny how it's always the plane, but never the pilot. Wouldn't you agree?

[flygav]

Allow me to apologize for my inappropriate post

 

I am sorry for my post about the P51 flight model. I was unaware of the lack of appreciation for satire and a brief criticism used to stimulate some critical thinking. And to avoid a long winded post hashing over details that may have been gone over repeatedly.

 

I was just wanting to know that I was not alone in my opinion as I haven't seen any other comments other than "P51 not cutting it". But I think I understand why, I forget we all from different places and many do not see the benefits of the First Amendment where I live.

 

Any how, yes I have flown a P-51 and have flown for many years. I also have been captain of a few boats. And the handling reminds me of handling a boat more so than a plane. It is slow, it maintains energy like a barge going upstream.

 

It turns like a freight train, no matter what adjustments are used. As long as you're not involved in air combat its great. It feels like you are dog fighting in a B-24, you cant out turn them, you cant dive and run, don't try to climb.

 

So the rules to dog fight are don't turn, extend or climb, as I tried many hours trying those options and all the other ACMs known to man since ww1.

 

Unless someone knows some things I haven't used that work, I would like to know what they are.

 

Thank you for taking the time to read another long posting.

 

Fly:helpsmilie:

[KingPoiuy]

Personally, I don't find it harder to use than the 109 or the 190. I can stay on the tail of both of the German opponents and they can stay on mine.

 

I'm not a boat captain or mustang pilot in real life though.

[Legioneod]

Personally, I don't find it harder to use than the 109 or the 190. I can stay on the tail of both of the German opponents and they can stay on mine.

 

I'm not a boat captain or mustang pilot in real life though.

 

How are you able to stay behind a 109? I find it difficult to stay behind a 190 most of the time, especially on multiplayer server.

No matter how hard I turn I can never get behind them and I usually stall even at high speeds.

[Legioneod]

It's funny how it's always the plane, but never the pilot. Wouldn't you agree?

 

In my case its definitely pilot error because I see mustang pilots online that do very well, my biggest problem is tight turns, everything else I can do pretty well.

[Reflected]

I recently bought the 109 and now I spend equal time in both planes. I've come to the following conclusion:

 

1 - Yes, the 109 is definitely the superior plane at low altitude one on one dogfights. It's just not the Mustang's game

2 - Yes, it would probably bring the relative performance closer if we got an accurate boost limit.

3 - It would also help to have proper DM so that .50 cals would do accurate damage (Sabre suffers of the same)

 

This being said, the Mustang has several advantages:

 

1 - Visibility from the cockpit - it matters more than you would think.

2 - It is easy to handle. If you don't think so, jump in a 109 and compare. The 109 requires constant arm-wrestling.

3 - The 109's controls freeze at high speeds while the Mustang can still happily do whatever it wants.

4 - roll rate...big + for the 'Stang

5 - The 109's cannons are very effective, but once it's out of ammo, the 2 pea shooters suffer of the same problem as the Mustang's .50 cals. In DCS they can't really do proper damage.

6 - Maybe it's only my impression, but the 109 pilot blacks out way more easily. Not sure why this is.

 

Once it's not just a 1v1 I would rather sit in the Mustang.