DCS: M-III by Razbam ?

[jojo]

I respectfully disagree.

 

I think the majority would prefer the Mirage IIICJ Shahak.

 

Cheers

 

And I don't doubt you are totally impartial on that matter :megalol:

 

But mattebubben is right, for the time being, AG radar is a problem within DCS World.

 

Anyway, I shouldn't have brought the Mirage III E discussion. Sorry.

 

Mirage III C it is, and the bird should be interesting to fly and fight.

Without Israeli map, Nevada will do for desert map.

[NaCH]

Well hopefully RAZBAM realise that the vast majority of us would prefer the IIIE, and add that to the module/make it instead

 

Not for me.. give me a Mirage IIIB or CJ

 

[Kev2go]

comparing C and CJ Id rather see the regular C, becasue it represent Nation of design origin, France. sure IAF CJ may have seen combat, but compared to whats already in game, both would be at a disadvantage against current Mig21Bis and the F5E. CJ has further simplification to avionics.

 

thier going to be handicapped against those by not having RWR or a countermeasures dispenser.

 

 

So for obvious reason as most I too am in the MIIIE camp, because its the more capable version, with a2g radar functions.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Kev2go

[TomCatMucDe]

I respectfully disagree.

 

I think the majority would prefer the Mirage IIICJ Shahak.

 

Cheers

 

The majority of Israeli players you mean? I dont have the impressions others prefer the CJ.

 

I vote for IIIE

[mattebubben]

And now with the Announcement of the Mig-19P project there is a proper opponent for the Mirage III CJ as they faced eachother in both the 6 day war, the War of Attrition and the Yom Kippur War.

 

On a side note does anybody know if the Mig-21Bis and Mirage IIICJ every faced eachother in combat?.

 

Since the Mig-21Bis would not have seen service in any of those 3 wars.

 

(Atleast not the first two and i dont think it was in service by the time of the Yom Kippur War either)

[tflash]

I'm not Israeli but also vote for Mirage IIICJ ! In november 1964 first Mig-21 was shot down by a IIICJ, but I do not think it was Mig-21bis. Could be a Mig-21F13 or so.

[fixen]

If I would have a choice it would definatly be the mirage IIIE over the CJ. I am not a fan of export version aircraft and the E has some nice extra capability over the C(J). But the choice for the CJ has allready been made.

[Teldja]

I was hoping for the Mirage IIIE variant for its all weather air to ground capabilities and Doppler radar.

I am not interested in the C or CJ variant to be honest.

 

Razbam has done an outstanding job with the Mirage 2000C so I am confident they will do their best for developing the next module of their choice.

[Kev2go]

And now with the Announcement of the Mig-19P project there is a proper opponent for the Mirage III CJ as they faced eachother in both the 6 day war, the War of Attrition and the Yom Kippur War.

 

On a side note does anybody know if the Mig-21Bis and Mirage IIICJ every faced eachother in combat?.

 

Since the Mig-21Bis would not have seen service in any of those 3 wars.

 

(Atleast not the first two and i dont think it was in service by the time of the Yom Kippur War either)

 

 

but despite facing those, the Mig19 is 1st generation supersonic aircraft. its a closer contemporary to the F100 than a mirage 3. Sure the P gets a very primitive radar for tracking/ guidance, unlike the F100's only having A4 radar ranging gunsighrs, but performance wise its also going to be considerably behind the Mirage 3 in engine thrust( both military power & reheat), and in Top speed ( mach 1.3 vs mach 2.2). while P's got Atolls late in life its not confirmed yet, if we are getting a P with IR missiles. if it doesnt get any itl be just a Gunfighter.

 

i think the ideal opponent to a mirage 3C/CJ ( both timeline and capability wise) would be the Mig21PF/PFM. only 2 mounts for missiles, and they have a earlier radar, no rwr, nor any chaff/flare dispensers.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Kev2go

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

but the Mig19 is 1st generation supersonic aircraft. its a closer contemporary to the F100 than a mirage 3. Sure the P gets a very primtive radar for tracking/ guidance, but performance wise, its still going to be behind the Mirage 3 in engine thrust, and Top speed. while P's got Atolls late in life its not confirmed yet, if we are getting a P with IR missiles. if it doesnt get any its a strictly a Gunfighter.

 

i think the ideal opponent to a mirage 3C(J) would be the Mig21PF/PFM. only 2 mounts for missiles, and they have a earlier radar, no rwr, or chaff/flare dispensers.

Actually it's more in the 2+ or 3 region as the P variant had the radar installed. Remember too that they were over veitnam scoring super sabre thud and phantom kills.

 

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

[Kev2go]

Actually it's more in the 2+ or 3 region as the P variant had the radar installed. Remember too that they were over veitnam scoring super sabre thud and phantom kills.

 

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

 

 

the RP1 Izumrud introduced circa 1954 can't quite measure up to with 60s or 70s radars. Its the same radar that was first installed on the Mig17 P model. if i recall the RP1 only has only maximum 12km detection range, a lock range of 6km. and its said to have problems with ground interference under 3000m ( minimum height 2500m) . so it will be quite inferior to the radar on the MIIIC/CJ and ofc to the mig21BIS & F5E. So you can see the Mig19P is not a 2 gen + let alone a 3rd gen fighter.

 

Mig19P's werent in use in vietnam. it was the Chinese Copy, the Shengyang J6 and it was a radarless version, comparable to the Mig19S. and from what i recall only 1 squadron had them.

 

 

Also they certainly didnt get any Hun kills in nam. Huns were only used for escort into North Vietnam for F105s for a brief period in 1965, before phantoms arrived in #s.

 

after that they stuck to perform CAS in the South. in the begining the north only had Mig17F's. they only received the Mig21s and some J6s later. So its not possible for the Hun to have been shot down by a J6 . Just because it scored some kills doesnt make a it a better aircraft. I mean, I once got lucky and shot down a player flown Mig21BIs with gar8 in a F86F when he was distracted by airfield air defenses, doesnt mean the sabre is a well matched opponent.

 

Considering we dont have proper GCI simulation from groud radars, dont expect to be scoring kills IN DCs like Vietnamese pilots in the real vietnam war. The planes with the big radars and awacs support will have the advantage. But im nt going to get ahead of myself. we dont have a Vietnam scenario, or even the proper supporting environment of a given time periods. the true menacing opponent to the Thuds would have been a network of Sa2 sams.

 

 

again whats more important is having a relatively closely matched opponent for Multiplayer. FOr eg sure Iraq used Mig21'sm Mig23s, or Mirage F1s in the 1991 gulf war... but no one would want to face blueforce full of F15s. In that case, youd give plenty of Mig29's, and a Smaller F15 team to even the odds, even if Mig29s werent as numerous, or let alone able to outnumber the allied coalition

 

hency why F5E vs Mig21bis works well. and why a Mig21PF or PFM vs M3CJ would be better suited matchup then the Mig19P. For now the Mig19p will be what the Mig21Bis was before the F5 came around. a orphan aircraft, something history fans would fly and derp around for fun, and or in Single player against Ai legacy aircraft. and thats fine.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Kev2go

[Johnny Dioxin]

I think there are plenty of A/A fighters and more coming and we could do with some more dedicated ground pounders.

[mattebubben]

but despite facing those, the Mig19 is 1st generation supersonic aircraft. its a closer contemporary to the F100 than a mirage 3. Sure the P gets a very primitive radar for tracking/ guidance, unlike the F100's only having A4 radar ranging gunsighrs, but performance wise its also going to be considerably behind the Mirage 3 in engine thrust( both military power & reheat), and in Top speed ( mach 1.3 vs mach 2.2). while P's got Atolls late in life its not confirmed yet, if we are getting a P with IR missiles. if it doesnt get any itl be just a Gunfighter.

 

i think the ideal opponent to a mirage 3C/CJ ( both timeline and capability wise) would be the Mig21PF/PFM. only 2 mounts for missiles, and they have a earlier radar, no rwr, nor any chaff/flare dispensers.

 

Well the Mirage IIICJ does not have a very capable radar either (though its probably better then the Mig-19Ps)

 

And the Mig-19 is not a first Gen Jet fighter.

Its designated as a Second Gen jet as is the Mirage III.

 

Its Simply Slower but its still Supersonic and is quick enough at low altitude.

 

Its Also More Maneuverable then the Mirage III is so should make for a interesting opponent.

 

And when it comes to armaments the Air combat during the Six-Day war was primarily gun fighting and the Mig-19 does have confirmed gun kills against Israeli Mirage IIICJs.

Having Opponents with Speed differences is nothing new (F-5E and Migs-21Bis etc) it will just force the pilots to use their respective advantages during combat.

 

And the Mig-19 is probably the best adversary for the Mirage IIICJ that is in game or is in development.

as the Mig-21Bis and F-5E have larger advantages over the Mirage IIICJ when it comes to avionics / Weapons then the Mirage IIICJ has over the Mig-19.

(And the Mig-19P and Mirage IIICJ are also of a more comparable timeframe production wise)

Edited December 13, 2016 by mattebubben

[Kev2go]

Well the Mirage IIICJ does not have a very capable radar either (though its probably better then the Mig-19Ps)

 

And the Mig-19 is not a first Gen Jet fighter.

Its designated as a Second Gen jet as is the Mirage III.

 

Its Simply Slower but its still Supersonic and is quick enough at low altitude.

 

Its Also More Maneuverable then the Mirage III is so should make for a interesting opponent.

 

And when it comes to armaments the Air combat during the Six-Day war was primarily gun fighting and the Mig-19 does have confirmed gun kills against Israeli Mirage IIICJs.

Having Opponents with Speed differences is nothing new (F-5E and Migs-21Bis etc) it will just force the pilots to use their respective advantages during combat.

 

And the Mig-19 is probably the best adversary for the Mirage IIICJ that is in game or is in development.

as the Mig-21Bis and F-5E have larger advantages over the Mirage IIICJ when it comes to avionics / Weapons then the Mirage IIICJ has over the Mig-19.

(And the Mig-19P and Mirage IIICJ are also of a more comparable timeframe production wise)

 

 

I did not call it a first gen fighter... I called it a first generation supersonic fighter since it was Russias very first first faster than Mach 1.0 ( in level flight) fighter in service, just like Americas F100, and neither could reach mach 2.0 in level flight I did indeed acknowledge itsa second generation, just not a second "gen +" or a 3rd gen.

 

Mirage 3Cjs radar has a max range of 27 Nautical miles. that is 50km. Quite a difference when comparing to the RP1 with its measly 12 km max radar range. In raw detection range that would also make the it better than the Mig21's radar, but ofc not an ideal opponent bis due to other advantages like having a formof RWR, better missiles, and IFF

 

The story is different between thr F5E and mig21bis matchup becasue the F5 actually has characteristics that offsets its disadvantages while the Mig19 does not. Whilst the F5E-3 has a speed disadvantage it offers a superior radar + rwr, and a better gunsight solution to the mig21bis. also the maneuverability advantage, that compensates for its lower speed. plus speed disadvantage is greater when comparing the mig19p to the m3, than the F5E to the Mig21.

 

Mig19P has no superior characteristics to the Mirage 3CJ. Its superior turnrate is questionable, as ive read it was not really that much better, with some Isreali pilots claiming the Mig21's were actually more dangerous than the 19s in a turnfight. so therefore it is not a good matchup like the F5E vs Mig21bis, since the mig19 does not have better combat avionics to compensate for worse performance characteristics , or acess to all aspect IR missiles like the F5 or the 21bis which do larger sum of the dogfighting work for the pilot.

 

when you cant rely on missile technology, the gunfighter with the greater energy has a even greater advantage, tha a platform with more capable missiles as he/she can dicate the terms of the engagement. in this case will be the Mirage 3 especially since reliability of early Ir's are lacking, and have stricker launch parameters.

 

 

Second gen Mig21's such as the PF will be the more ideal m3 opponent, from a comparable time frame production, and capability wise.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Kev2go

[OverStratos]

And the Mig-19 is not a first Gen Jet fighter.

Its designated as a Second Gen jet as is the Mirage III.

Sorry, but I´m positive it´s first generation.

 

Mirage 3Cjs radar has a max range of 27 Nautical miles. that is 50km.

This is highly overestimated. It could probably detect a MiG-19 sized target at about 30km, maybe even less. At low altitude things get worse.

 

Also, the MiG-19 is maneuverable and have very good dynamic characteristics for the time frame, I will check for the tables later.

[mattebubben]

Sorry, but I´m positive it´s first generation.

 

This is highly overestimated. It could probably detect a MiG-19 sized target at about 30km, maybe even less. At low altitude things get worse.

 

Also, the MiG-19 is maneuverable and have very good dynamic characteristics for the time frame, I will check for the tables later.

 

First Generation Jets are the Subsonic jet fighters so From the ww2 aircraft to aircraft like the F-86,Mig-15,Mig-17 and Hawker hunter etc.

 

The Second Gen are the first generation of Supersonic jet fighters and that includes both Mach 1 and mach 2 capable aircraft

(So the Mig-19 and F-100 are both Second Gen as are the Mirage-IIIC and early Mig-21s)

 

It depends ofc on what of the different Generation rule sets one followes but in none of them is the Mig-19 designated as a First Gen Jet Fighter.

 

Second gen Mig21's such as the PF will be the more ideal m3 opponent, from a comparable time frame production, and capability wise.

 

Sure but i never said the Mig-19 was the Ideal opponent...

 

Only that of the aircraft we currently have or that are in production the Mig-19P is the most historically accurate Opponent to the mirage IIICJ

and they are also more comparable in some areas such as a lack or RWR and flare dispensers etc.

 

And yes the Mirage IIICJs radar was more capable but its prime duty was to find Bombers and high altitudes,

In low altitude against Fighter sized targets it will be alot less effective and reliable.

 

And where did you get that Number for the Mirage IIICJs radar

the only numbers i find for the Cyrano I radar of the IIIC are around 20-24km max range or did the III CJ not use the Cyrano I radar of the basic IIIC?

[OverStratos]

First Generation Jets are the Subsonic jet fighters so From the ww2 aircraft to aircraft like the F-86,Mig-15,Mig-17 and Hawker hunter etc.

If we are talking only about jet engines, then your´re right. I use to follow the rule of supersonic flight, and in that case the MiG-19 and F-100 are first generation. (First aircraft to attain supersonic speed at level flight still not capable of reaching Mach 2, etc...)
Edited December 13, 2016 by OverStratos

[Zulu]

I'm going to be patriotic and say: go for the CZ :)

[Kev2go]

Sorry, but I´m positive it´s first generation.

 

This is highly overestimated. It could probably detect a MiG-19 sized target at about 30km, maybe even less. At low altitude things get worse.

 

Also, the MiG-19 is maneuverable and have very good dynamic characteristics for the time frame, I will check for the tables later.

 

Overestimated, well we will see just how it will perform when it get simulated.

 

even going by a pessimistic example, , thats still at least 20 kilometers more than a Mig19 will detect the mirage 3. remember the migs radar not only has lesser range, but also less reliable than that of the Mirage 3.

 

 

ofc not expecting a miracle radar, after all you can see even how limited the RP22 saphir is on the Mig21BIS, flying below 2000m, relative when compared to radar performance of modern radars.

 

And yes the Mirage IIICJs radar was more capable but its prime duty was to find Bombers and high altitudes,

In low altitude against Fighter sized targets it will be alot less effective and reliable.

 

 

well that goes double for the Mig19P, though to a greater extent due to having a even more limited radar.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Kev2go

[OverStratos]

I´m not trying to say that the MiG-19 is better than a Mirage III, it´s not.

 

I´m just talking about the aircraft.:D

[IvanK]

Cyrano II radar performance. Having operated it for 10 or so years I offer this.

 

Head on look up against another Mirage III 130HCA typical pick up range was 13- to a max of 15 nm. Against F15/F111 in similar set up typically 20nm pick up. Against Canberra in same set up typical pick up range 17nm.

 

Lo level Look down in the stern target at 500ft over the ocean fighter at 3000ft against Mirage absolute best pick up 4nm. Versus F111 best pick up 5nm. This was very demanding work requiring a lot of pilot input to both manual gain controls and lots of work moving the antenna elevation to move the main lobe. Pickups being achieved in the side lobes. Technique was to position the ground line (using tilt) to about 0.5nm further than GCI called range. Target would then appear in a clutter free side lobe.

 

Ergonomics of the radar hand controller where however exceptionally good. in this regard it was way superior to any Mig 21 installation including the later model Bis versions.

 

Lo level look down over land unless very very flat was virtually useless.

[WinterH]

Thanks for the first hand insight sir! Interesting that you can look down with some fiddling!

Edited January 2, 2017 by WinterH

[Flyschool]

"M-III growing up."

 

https://www.facebook.com/RazbamSims/posts/1218029618283674

[Wacko_ZA]

Man im so excited! I cant wait to get into this, I can finally die a happy man when this is released one day!

Photos of the South African CZ, my shots.

 

[CHDT]

If there's a vote, I vote for the C.

Not interested in minor versions.