Constantly tipping over on vertical takeoff and landing

[WelshZeCorgi]

After about 10 hours of flight time (not much, I know) I keep running into the same problems/mistakes during VTOL.

 

Namely, I keep tipping over on the Mi-8's tricycle landing gear config.

 

I just seem to lean forward/left or forward/right, risking striking the main rotor on the ground and flipping over and while I have yet to actually crash because of it, I want to prevent future frustrations by correcting the habit now.

 

Any further advice other than what I already know? (back and right with cyclic, slowly add power to collective and right peddle as you add power)

[BitMaster]

More practice until it just happens to fly by itself :)

 

Same as with any other difficult to learn/steer/balance device, you gotta keep doing it until you get the hang of it, be it wheelie riding on your bike for half a mile, hanging your R/C plane on the prop and torque static or fly Helicopters....stick to it, fly fly fly :)

 

One day you will JUST DO IT without thinking too much about it, that's when you got the hang ;)!

 

Love the Mi(lk)-8(Truck)

[BitMaster]

Now my 2nd answer, that might actually help you sticking to it.

 

The Mi-8 is heavy gear !!! never forget the mass it has and don't ask for accelerations with too much + or - G, she will make you pay hard for such things.

 

When you transit from hover to forward flying or vice versa there is a destinct shaking and banging that seems to almost take your chopper apart...that is NORMAL :)

While you are in transit you should always be very alert, especially when you go from flying to hover with little or no wind present. This is an almost deadly scenario for any helicopter if you dont obey the rules and thus avoid Vortex of death, which is always one step aside lurking for your mistake.

 

The Mi-8 does not like to land vertical with 0 IAS, if you do it you should now exactly what you do and how you do it, it must be very slow with maybe 1-1.5 m/s vertical speed as a maximum. If you let her drop with 3 m/s you wont catch her before she drops !

 

If you have problems landing, land her like an airplane. Thats how I do my BF approaches to drop troops and cargo..its safer, faster and much more predictable. You can land aka touch down with as much as 80km/h and be safe, tho 30-50 km/h would be more RL like I guess.

 

Lifting up straight vertical is easy if you know the baby, easy as 123.....BUT if you DO NOT KNOW how she will turn bank & yaw when you apply pitch you will tend to rotate left and pitch the nose down..thats what she does by default.

 

Apply some right rudder and stay ready to adjust rudder as needed as you pull the pitch lever UP.

 

Control the nose with your stick...

 

 

SOUNDS EASY..is easy...once u got the hang.

 

 

Many people crash the Mi-8 cuz of wrong expactations in acceleration force..aka slow down and settling down...she doesnt like it rude unless you know the tight limits pretty well and stick to it.

One notch off limits and the Mi-8 falls from the sky like a Milk Truck dropped from a C-130 with no chute :)

 

 

Bit

[Weta43]

After about 10 hours of flight time (not much, I know) I keep running into the same problems/mistakes during VTOL.

 

Namely, I keep tipping over on the Mi-8's tricycle landing gear config.

 

I just seem to lean forward/left or forward/right, risking striking the main rotor on the ground and flipping over and while I have yet to actually crash because of it, I want to prevent future frustrations by correcting the habit now.

 

Any further advice other than what I already know? (back and right with cyclic, slowly add power to collective and right peddle as you add power)

 

Just that :

back and right with cyclic, slowly add power to collective and right peddle as you add power

Add the power slowly, make sure the pitch and yaw channels are on, trim and release the pressure on the cyclic regularly..

 

If you add the power slowly enough, the yaw channel will take care of the rudders for you.

Video is a (not great) take off and landing with no manual input to rudders - yaw channel of autopilot holds aircraft direction through take off, translational lift, back down to zero airspeed and landing

 

nK5s16BbvqQ

[Art-J]

I would also suggest making sure "autopilot adjustment" is turned off in special options tab, because after one of recent patches, the AI flight engineer became a suicidal maniac. I've noticed that during my first 1.5.4.U3 flights, when, upon practicing vertical takeoffs and landings, my chopper started showing strong left tipping over tendency during the latter procedures, even with collective dropped to minimum (?!). It certainly wasn't doing that previously.

 

Turns out this effin' idiot sitting next to me was furiously twisting AP switches like hooker's nipples all the time, applying strong left roll input on touchdown.

 

I turned the option off and now everything's back to normal (I can still call for his help later in flight, using Alt-A key combo).

[gospadin]

one more thing

 

turn off your wheel brakes and get used to the control input needed to keep the aircraft in a steady attitude and position while you increase collective

 

with wheelbrakes on, you can't actually tell that the forces are not centered

[WelshZeCorgi]

one more thing

 

turn off your wheel brakes and get used to the control input needed to keep the aircraft in a steady attitude and position while you increase collective

 

with wheelbrakes on, you can't actually tell that the forces are not centered

 

This advice ended up being the most helpful. Thanks!

[gospadin]

This advice ended up being the most helpful. Thanks!

 

Glad I could help. Mi-8 is an awesome bird, tied for my favorite module.

[msalama]

with wheelbrakes on, you can't actually tell that the forces are not centered

 

A matter of taste surely, but I've found having them ON works best for me, because it helps in preventing the chopper from slipping around on the plate - and I've also found that you actually _can_ tell the off-center forces working even with the brakes on, because the chopper tilts / leans / turns as you apply collective. Not hard in the slightest IMO, you just have to be sloooow with your inputs in order to manage it all ;)

 

But to each their own, of course. What works for you may not work for me, etcetera.

[SnorreSelmer]

turn off your wheel brakes and get used to the control input needed to keep the aircraft in a steady attitude and position while you increase collective

 

I self-discovered this one a month ago or so, and this plus watching the horizon (and not the ground in front of the helicopter) made a huge difference for my takeoff- and hover-skills!

[Trueno]

The Mighty is a beautiful bird. Watch videos tutorials, read the manual and fly fly fly.... Fly.!!! You must understand the "why and how" this machine can fly.... and the best thing you must never forget: THIS IS NOT AN AIRPLANE.

DCS is a perfect chopers simulator

Enjoy this beautiful module.

[Cibit]

There are a bunch of video's I made on the mi-8 including take off and landing.

Link in sig:)

[gospadin]

A matter of taste surely, but I've found having them ON works best for me, because it helps in preventing the chopper from slipping around on the plate - and I've also found that you actually _can_ tell the off-center forces working even with the brakes on, because the chopper tilts / leans / turns as you apply collective. Not hard in the slightest IMO, you just have to be sloooow with your inputs in order to manage it all ;)

 

But to each their own, of course. What works for you may not work for me, etcetera.

 

Yes, but players new to helicopters won't notice the tilting. I agree though, the data about forces is there if you're looking for it.

[dotChuckles]

That sounds like a dynamic roll over...

 

 

TL;dw Immediate collective reduction before hitting the critical angle.

[Art-J]

That sounds like a dynamic roll over...

 

The problem is, in the Hip it can happen on buttery smooth airport ramp and during landings too :D.

 

I take back what I wrote in this thread a couple of weeks ago. My AI flight engineer won't try to roll my chopper over with retarded autopilot inputs (that was the real culprit) as long as after touchdown I drop collective sloooowly and smooothly (so that he can adjust both autopilot channels in time), and THEN reset the cyclic trim. Chopper stays stable, wheel brakes or not.

[Rogue Trooper]

For me pitch is the only AP required.

I engage all others when required, but pitch is simply a fundamental yes! It must be "ON".... I crap myself if I loose pitch due to battle field damage to the AP controller.

 

The other AP channels are just their to make life easier, but without doubt, the pitch is essential.

 

As stated above in previous posts, trim down and right (the length and width of the joystick diamond) to ensure correct hover status. Of course this changes with load.

 

For me I say click trim. One click sets the trim! You need the joystick cheat screen unless you got some seriously nice chopper Hotas kit!

Press and hold is for little girls! :D

Edited October 4, 2016 by Rogue Trooper

[Trueno]

There are a bunch of video's I made on the mi-8 including take off and landing.

Link in sig:)

 

Yes, Sir!!! And thx you for that.

[gospadin]

Are you guys using trim or the magnetic brake? Trim should really only be used for longer distance flying I think, magnetic brake would be used to reduce force on the cyclic as you transition in and out of hover. Yes, you can have the engineer do it if you're very slow and deliberate, but where's the fun in that? =P

[Slazi]

It's all just time. Practice slowly with brakes off and no wins. Try to increase throttle without moving. Every time you move, lower and start again.

[ebabil]

to aviod dynamic rollover, i just cut collective immediately just before landing. so helicopter cannot find energy to roll itself over. since that day i ve never seen this problem.

 

if only we had vibration feedback on our cyclics, everthing would be easier and realistic

[Rogue Trooper]

For me dynamic rollover was never a problem. The feedback DCS gives is just too good for dynamic rollover to occur.

Certain rules are critical when landing a chopper on uneven ground and I assume this post to be about a problem of landing on rough, uneven or hilly ground.

 

On hills or uneven ground I identify the problematic landing area as uneven or hilly/mountainous ground. If I cannot find a more level area to land I start the touch down slowly and keep glancing at the horizontal gauge.

As I slowly drop power and descend, and I mean slowly, some wheels will touch earth but if the bank angle becomes too great and my horizontal gauge shows that, then I am starting to tip far to much, then there is a real danger of me reaching and passing the end of cyclic movement and thus the blades can no longer provide direct horizontal lift and only a tipping or rotating lift.

 

I assume this is where you see rollover, on rough hilly landing zones?

 

Brakes on or off... no difference.

[msalama]

One good thing to master in the Mi-8 would be when you're kind of half-hovering with just one wheel touching the hillside as an "anchor" of sorts. I've seen some Afghanistan pics where the Hips do just that, but the last time I tried it in the sim, it all ended in tears to put it mildly :lol:

 

Anyone tried that successfully, and if so, what's your technique?

 

EDIT: Doable. Just needs good reflexes & reactivity. Plus practice...

 

EDIT2: Ground friction or, rather, lack of it, complicates matters though. But doable regardless.

Edited October 7, 2016 by msalama

[Quadg]

the new English manual covers this. (thank you belsimtek!!)

 

it is dynamic roll-over caused by to much right rudder to early.

 

the lateral thrust from the tail rotor pushes you over. it wants to turn you to the right but as the wheels form a triangle. it tips you left and forward and unbalances the triangle and you roll over. especially if you have the wheel brakes on.

 

the square profile of the skids must prevent this being an issue in the huey.

and its lower profile.

 

so use less rudder until the collective takes effect. if this happens to you.

only use right pedal to counter left yaw. don't put it in early.

 

in the huey i was setting the rudder before raising the collective.

and that kills you in the MI -8

 

and i thought it was a cyclic issue...

 

but no,reading the glorious new manual and testing it, it is all rudder..

 

(I have just swapped racing wheel pedals for MFG crosswinds.. why my pedal and collective inputs are now more in tune.. no more needing to get the pedal right before raising the collective.)

 

so its a quirk of the mi-8 , its height, its triangle wheel profile, and the strong positive tail rotor trim built in for ease of cruise. (why you need lots of left pedal to taxi straight)

meaning right rudder on the ground can cause dynamic roll over.

 

its also a bad habit you may have brought over from the huey... rudder in to early.. like me.

[Cibit]

One good thing to master in the Mi-8 would be when you're kind of half-hovering with just one wheel touching the hillside as an "anchor" of sorts. I've seen some Afghanistan pics where the Hips do just that, but the last time I tried it in the sim, it all ended in tears to put it mildly :lol:

 

Anyone tried that successfully, and if so, what's your technique?

 

EDIT: Doable. Just needs good reflexes & reactivity. Plus practice...

 

EDIT2: Ground friction or, rather, lack of it, complicates matters though. But doable regardless.

We do it with the 2 back wheels on a pinnacle or a convenient building and the front wheel in the air. Tough to master but fun :)

[Nealius]

I have never experienced tipping while approaching or landing, however I do experience some extreme left roll when increasing collective while on the ground, even with the stick back and to the right. When adding collective from 0, it tips to the left, I need extreme right stick to counter, then as I increase collective through a certain point now it wants to tip to the right and I have to counter by letting off of the right stick.